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RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 9:23:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Not every Dominant male out there has had the advantage of interacting with male submissives personally. Frankly, some of you are closed off. It's not your fault. You just haven't had the opportunity yet. This makes it new and strange to you. It's all of the great unknown and you're not comfortable in this different territory.

I don't know. Maybe I'm way off of the mark.

I'm sure that your point doesn't apply to all of the male Doms out there, but there are probably a good number of them that it DOES apply to.

I have been openly involved with the BDSM scene for over 20 years. I have been friends with all of the male Doms in the various BDSM groups that I've been a part of. Yet, during all of that time, I've never had a male Dom ask me questions about my kink. None has ever shown any interest in learning about what I enjoy about submission. Nor have I ever been asked a single question about it. I'm sure most other male subs would probably say the same thing.

But even without asking the male subs what we enjoy about submission, I think many of the Doms secretly desire to experience it for themselves. That would explain why so many Dommes complain about how often they are approached by Doms who want to submit to them. Obviously not all of the Doms fall into this category, but I'm certain some of them do.

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 9:55:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Ok, so let's get down to the point. Not every Dominant male out there has had the advantage of interacting with male submissives personally.

What has this got to do with anything? I'm not 100% sure but I think possibly meeting Clip down at Merc's was my first time meeting a male submissive... or at least knowing that I had and seeing the submission out in the open. Why would that change the overall way I evaluate humans? I never looked at Clip as a "male submissive". I looked at him as a person and any evaluations I'd made of him was done according to the general standards I use for humans. In point of fact the entire party was very shocking to Carol's and my sensibilities. But we didn't experience "contempt" for those that were different than us. We experience shock and curiosity.

In the end what we're talking about here is not familiarity or lack thereof unless, like Marge Simpson, they have contempt for anything unfamiliar. If someone says "I have contempt for male submissives" then what you know is that one or more of the following is true:

They are generally contemptuous
They have contempt for males.
They have contempt for submissives.
They have contempt for males who are submissive.

What that tells you is how a person judges others and how secure they are in themself. People who judge on things like body shape, skin color, nationality, sexual orientation, or D/s orientation are, if nothing else, not compatible with me. Exactly as SilverMark said, "Prejudice is prejudice."

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 10:08:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Well, if I'm going to step in it this morning, I might as well go all in.

The last couple of comments on this thread, I probably could have pulled from Wiki had I done a search of the rationalization on theme of John Norman behind the books. Yes, yes, the feminists that were having an influence and all of that crap. You know, I'm really not here to challenge your identity or your beliefs. At the same time, I'd ask you to read the whole thing. Listen to the history of the times and what motivations may have had an influence. I'm just saying, have an open mind.

I consider that I have an open mind. I was just drawing on personal experience and my own memories of the period in question. I didn't get it from a Wiki article or from any of John Norman's books.

I'm not here to bash feminists or anything like that, but I don't think it can be denied that there has been a lasting influence on society. I'm not making a value judgment as to whether it's a good thing or a bad thing; I'm just acknowledging its existence and influence on perceptions and ways of thinking nowadays. I've tried to keep an open mind and look at different sides to the issue - at least since the 1970s. But it's not always all that easy in an indecisive, wishy-washy society filled with mixed messages and conflicting mores.

Of course, I'm taking in the history of the times and the motivations behind these changes. I can certainly understand the motives for wanting to tear down the old order and "subvert the dominant paradigm," as the saying goes. But just as with most revolutionary ideals, nobody ever really quite figured out what they were going to do after the dominant paradigm was subverted. I think it confirms Ferguson's view in Colossus: The Rise and Fall of the American Empire that many of us have a short attention span. Not just with this issue, but with many other issues as well.

quote:

Ok, so let's get down to the point. Not every Dominant male out there has had the advantage of interacting with male submissives personally. Frankly, some of you are closed off. It's not your fault. You just haven't had the opportunity yet. This makes it new and strange to you. It's all of the great unknown and you're not comfortable in this different territory.

I think I can understand the male viewpoint pretty well, no matter if it's a dominant, submissive, or vanilla male point of view. I can even understand the contempt that some male dominants here have expressed for submissive males.

I would only suggest that they're thinking more impulsively and emotionally on this issue and not using their natural male analytical skills. As they've said, it's just a feeling on their part, so they're only responding on an emotional level and not thinking about it analytically and objectively.

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 10:10:13 AM

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I am prejudiced against male submissives for they tend to be such whiny ass pussies.

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RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 10:15:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I am prejudiced against male submissives for they tend to be such whiny ass pussies.

All right, we got that earlier - stop whining about it.

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RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 10:30:51 AM

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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I am prejudiced against male submissives for they tend to be such whiny ass pussies.

Real men don't eat quiche.

(in reply to domiguy)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 11:39:57 AM

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I've found it to be the rule rather than the exception,
that all the contempt they've built up for me, generally
makes for an overall superior thrust whilst they have
me on all fours during an especially resentful barrage.

chia* (the pet)

_____________________________

Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to NiceGuyNihilist)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 11:52:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I am prejudiced against male submissives for they tend to be such whiny ass pussies.

In fairness, I did *have* a whiny ass a couple of years ago when I had gastric flu. It made all kinds of unhappy noises, truth be told. Once it even made a miaowing sound, just like an angry bobcat. Amazing really. I should have recorded it and sent you an audio.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to domiguy)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 1:07:33 PM

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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
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I do not have contempt for submissive males.
I don't consider all Dom/mes dominant by my measure.
I look at domination like a ladder... tribal pecking order.
Somewhere there is someone more dominant than me, but I would fight to the death before I became their bitch.

So even if a male submissive is submitting to an ex-slave that was once my bitch, or submitting to a woman who is a submissive in my eyes, I just see it as part of the natural order.

_____________________________

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I give good thread.

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RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 4:08:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

What has this got to do with anything? I'm not 100% sure but I think possibly meeting Clip down at Merc's was my first time meeting a male submissive... or at least knowing that I had and seeing the submission out in the open. Why would that change the overall way I evaluate humans? I never looked at Clip as a "male submissive". I looked at him as a person and any evaluations I'd made of him was done according to the general standards I use for humans. In point of fact the entire party was very shocking to Carol's and my sensibilities. But we didn't experience "contempt" for those that were different than us. We experience shock and curiosity.

In the end what we're talking about here is not familiarity or lack thereof unless, like Marge Simpson, they have contempt for anything unfamiliar. If someone says "I have contempt for male submissives" then what you know is that one or more of the following is true:
They are generally contemptuous

They have contempt for males.

They have contempt for submissives.

They have contempt for males who are submissive.

What that tells you is how a person judges others and how secure they are in themself. People who judge on things like body shape, skin color, nationality, sexual orientation, or D/s orientation are, if nothing else, not compatible with me. Exactly as SilverMark said, "Prejudice is prejudice."

Going a little out of order here, so My apologies on that.

The problem here, Jeff, is that you're being your logical self. What I'm reaching for on this one isn't especially logical. If we're talking about a strong emotional reaction (contempt) based on......... well, we haven't even had much to base it on in discussing this thread. I've read all kinds of things from stereotype bashing to low testosterone. Some of it's been pretty silly.

So, I started wondering if a prejudice in this area had possible similarities to other types, like those based on race or religion. We know that happens. It's just plain easier to hate a stereotype than it is to hate a person. When you get to know a person, it's just not that easy to do.

But, I'm thinking that not everybody gets that chance. When we talk about a group, we have to consider that not all male Dominants have really had the same opportunity to interact with male submissives and get to see them as people. There's nothing to discount the stereotype. No humanity factor. That's an easy way for a bigotry to thrive.

Granted, I happen to think that most humans on the planet are very much like you. They have enough respect for humanity in general that they don't just automatically hate what they don't understand. In discussing this subject, we're talking about such a small sliver of human interaction to support fear of the unknown, what isn't comfortable, something different than the way someone sees themselves. There really are people who do that.

If "prejudice is prejudice", we have to think it has the same basis and reasons that prejudice happens. One of those is no humanity factor between one group and another.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 4:33:33 PM

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I don't think it's particularly mysterious why it happens.

Let's assume that I have ordered my life in a way which is comfortable for me. Now, let's introduce a new and shocking element into my awareness (say, for instance, people whipping their lovers until blood spatters are an issue). The easiest thing to do, by far, is to reject that element. Much harder is to look closely at the element and then to look at your own internal world view and make changes where required. I've had to do a whole ton of that in the 4 years I've been mixing in with BDSM and it hasn't been easy. It's been a constant struggle to remind myself that just because the goals aren't the same as mine and the methods aren't the same as mine doesn't make it stupid. I think I get why this happens. It's a fairly human reaction. It's what occurs when one is not strong enough, confident enough, and courageous enough to face reality.

People can paper it over with pseudo-science (in this case, natural order arguments, testosterone arguments and god knows what else). It's fascinating to me that the "natural order" arguments are nothing new. Us humans like to drag that out whenever possible. Blacks, Jews, and American Indians (along with a whole host of other groups I'm sure) fell victim to the natural order line of reasoning.

You're right that it isn't a logical line of reasoning. It's a fear response turning into fight/flee coupled with a ton of insecurity. I doubt contact would change that.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 4:40:29 PM

Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I consider that I have an open mind. I was just drawing on personal experience and my own memories of the period in question. I didn't get it from a Wiki article or from any of John Norman's books.

I'm not here to bash feminists or anything like that, but I don't think it can be denied that there has been a lasting influence on society. I'm not making a value judgment as to whether it's a good thing or a bad thing; I'm just acknowledging its existence and influence on perceptions and ways of thinking nowadays. I've tried to keep an open mind and look at different sides to the issue - at least since the 1970s. But it's not always all that easy in an indecisive, wishy-washy society filled with mixed messages and conflicting mores.

Of course, I'm taking in the history of the times and the motivations behind these changes. I can certainly understand the motives for wanting to tear down the old order and "subvert the dominant paradigm," as the saying goes. But just as with most revolutionary ideals, nobody ever really quite figured out what they were going to do after the dominant paradigm was subverted. I think it confirms Ferguson's view in Colossus: The Rise and Fall of the American Empire that many of us have a short attention span. Not just with this issue, but with many other issues as well.

I think I can understand the male viewpoint pretty well, no matter if it's a dominant, submissive, or vanilla male point of view. I can even understand the contempt that some male dominants here have expressed for submissive males.

I would only suggest that they're thinking more impulsively and emotionally on this issue and not using their natural male analytical skills. As they've said, it's just a feeling on their part, so they're only responding on an emotional level and not thinking about it analytically and objectively.

That might very well be it. I can't quite go for the "natural male analytical" part because I happen to be female and that's the way I interpret things, too. An unsubstantiated emotional reaction doesn't work well for Me. Give Me something that supports a secondary emotional reaction and that makes sense to Me. I'm not seeing it yet, but I'm working on it.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Zonie63)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 5:12:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
I'm sure that your point doesn't apply to all of the male Doms out there, but there are probably a good number of them that it DOES apply to.

I have been openly involved with the BDSM scene for over 20 years. I have been friends with all of the male Doms in the various BDSM groups that I've been a part of. Yet, during all of that time, I've never had a male Dom ask me questions about my kink. None has ever shown any interest in learning about what I enjoy about submission. Nor have I ever been asked a single question about it. I'm sure most other male subs would probably say the same thing.

But even without asking the male subs what we enjoy about submission, I think many of the Doms secretly desire to experience it for themselves. That would explain why so many Dommes complain about how often they are approached by Doms who want to submit to them. Obviously not all of the Doms fall into this category, but I'm certain some of them do.

In the course of this thread, I've been thinking about a lot of possibilities. One of those is how this might be comparable to the connection that might be here of the similarity to bisexuality. A possibility that might exist is that Dominance and submission and the desires of which are very much like the reality that there aren't quite as many zeros or sixes out there that some folks would like to believe. That might actually be a scary thing for some and not everybody wants to deal with that. It's frightening, it's taboo, and all of that jazz. Not everybody wants to mess with their identity.

In a sense, it might be easier for Me than for you. I have commonality in My corner. For instance, sadism is a great equalizer. My motivations for wanting to engage in it are pretty much the same as they are for male sadists. It's very easy for someone to understand and there's no great mystery when we have it in common. The same applies to the other things we can check off the list. Dominance, control, power, etc, etc, etc. I can't go so far as to say that males forget about the fact that I have tits and they don't, but it matters less and less.

In contrast, you've got a penis and so do they. That's where the similarity ends for a lot of areas. There's no identification. That means that you talk about football, or business, or some other thing that might help you each to identify with each other. It's easier to make chit chat that way.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Rochsub2009)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 10:20:15 PM

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From: Nashville, TN
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This has been an interesting internet trek.

I'm finding a subtle variation of interpretation at work with a lot of the differences of opinion here. Evolutionary gender roles (and the part biology plays in them) have aligned the sexes toward particular characteristics; ones that, by the same standards of that construct, as gauged as weak or strong. Consequently, certain actions and/or motivations by submissive males will indeed be "weak" (which is really only a descriptive term of whether it echoes X or Y sorts of traits). The issue I'm seeing is that it's completely common nowadays to manacle the terms "weak" and "strong" to some barometer of human (self) worth, and you'll find people responding right in line as if a question other than one about simple weakness or strength has been posited.

I'd be tempted to guess that male dominants who have excessive personal aversions to submissive males (to where specific revulsion is at work) are manifesting an emotional response to the role reversal; particularly one in which their adherence to it plays a very heavy investment role in their lives. It's the investment that's the key in terms of how aggressively they respond because, whether the topic is general or personal, their interpretation of it hits close to home.

Now, this topic also very subtly hints at a certain yielding by many men to a growing undulation of popular misandry...but I don't necessarily find that submissive men (who self-label as such) as are guilty of that particular "weakness" as much as many others who indulge in multitudes of delusions to cater to female demands. While there probably is certainly some overlap there (which may have contributed to the point of the OP), I think it misses a more relevant underlying core.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 5/8/2011 10:31:56 PM >

_____________________________

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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 11:26:51 PM

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I spent my entire weekend with kinky people.

Friday night was three femdom's, two male subs, and one female sub. We had dinner, enjoyed a little wine, had a nice fire out on the deck and enjoyed all the company.

Saturday, was two of the femdom's and the same two male subs. We are both girlie-boys and again, it was a terrific day! We slept in, watched a movie, ate good food, took a walk, and all went out for ice cream.

This evening was a dinner in Northern Colorado. Two male doms and their female submissives, my Lady and myself, an unattached female submissive, and a new male submissive that my Lady and I are introducing around our circle (cause he is pretty cool). Amazing dinner, fantastic conversation, and internet shoe shopping after dinner for all the girls...and me too! I got a great pair of red strappy lace up heels, and a fabu red fur jacket which will both make an appearance at Thunder this year.

A view in to the life of a male submissive. Contempt free...

I have never been happier, felt more fulfilled, nor been so completely comfortable in my own skin as I am now. If there is a genetic potential in me, this is it, and there is nothing wasted, nothing squandered, nothing lost.

Cheers!

_____________________________

I am on a journey of authenticity and self.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/8/2011 11:33:06 PM

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*sends many warm wishes to Otters and Lady*

*send pics of the jacket!!*

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CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to OttersSwim)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/9/2011 7:57:15 AM

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quote:

It's the investment that's the key in terms of how aggressively they respond because, whether the topic is general or personal, their interpretation of it hits close to home.

Fascinating addition NZ. I'll have to ponder that more but I think it ties in well with what I said. It's certainly true in my case. I have no emotional attachment to my role in the marriage so I don't feel threatened by counter examples. I'm the guy who says he'd happily submit to Carol if that's what worked in our marriage so obviously I'm not going to be shocked by a submissive male. In short, when you don't place any value on something then it isn't a source of vulnerability.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/9/2011 7:57:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

I have never been happier, felt more fulfilled, nor been so completely comfortable in my own skin as I am now. If there is a genetic potential in me, this is it, and there is nothing wasted, nothing squandered, nothing lost.

See, this is why I like OttersSwim. He's a very different type of male sub than I am. But that doesn't matter. Otters is very comfortable in his own skin. He knows who he is, and he stands up for that, regardless of what anyone else thinks. To me, that takes a great deal of strength and personal conviction.

It's easy to go with the crowd. Assimilating with societal norms is simple. But bucking the crowd and swimming against the current is hard. It deserves respect, not contempt.

IMO, Otters demonstrates more strength in boldly being a girly boy that those who cower behind to some stereotypical Gorean male caricature, and then use terms like "natural order" to disguise their own prejudice.

I salute you, OttersSwim. You earn my respect each time you post.

And to be clear, I am not putting down those who follow a Gorean lifestyle. I have no problem with Goreans or any other type of male Doms. Rather, I am speaking to those who hold others in contempt for living by a different set of guidelines than your own.

(in reply to OttersSwim)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/9/2011 9:02:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
It's easy to go with the crowd. Assimilating with societal norms is simple. But bucking the crowd and swimming against the current is hard. It deserves respect, not contempt.

Well said. I would also add that bucking against the crowd doesn't give one a license to treat others with obvious contempt and disrespect; something I saw being done by one particular individual in this thread a few pages back, who may well be the minority in this day and age. Contemptibly writing off all constituents of a larger crowd as incomplete thinkers and timid pack animals is intellectually lazy and lily-livered; there is really no better way to defeat your own argument. The surrounding consensus, wrong though it can be, is well served by entertaining a different point of view, but the marketability of that point of view resides strictly in the ethics and quality of argument in the one who would stand as its exemplar.

"The test of courage comes when we are in the minority. The test of tolerance comes when we are in the majority."
—Ralph W. Sockman

_____________________________

Omnes una manet nox

Founder, Humbled Females

(in reply to Rochsub2009)

RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? - 5/11/2011 9:49:32 AM

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I have NO CONTEMPT for these foolish choices.

Instead, I feel genuine pity.

It's very easy to believe that submitting to a woman will result in gaining her favor, as indicated by some measure of - at least arousing - sexual activity for the male.

This battle has been waged since the beginning of our world.

Cliche says that: "The one with the pussy makes the rules." Yet, Marilyn Monroe enlightened us with her insight that: "Beauty is to men as money is to women."

IMHO, marriage is NOT LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION! With a prostitute, one usually receives that for which one has paid. But in marriage, the husband commonly pays, and pays, and pays...

Be strong as a man, and do NOT BE SEDUCED by sensual beauty!

Yes, serving each other in love is correct, but submission to gain your partner's favor is ALWAYS WRONG! It's deceitful.

Why do women so (commonly) HATE (their men watching) PORN? Guys can get off too easily with pornography, and what other value does a woman have, aside from her sexuality?

Sure, bearing children, being a cook, homemaker, and trusted advisor, as well as being a best friend, are treasures, but you're mileage WILL VARY!

Don't (EVER) submit to her for sex. It's a dangerous pattern to which many masculine men become ensnared...

_____________________________

"Beauty is to men as money is to women." - Marilyn Monroe

And all God's people said: "AMEN!"

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

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