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Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 4:45:55 AM

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When I first got into BDSM in 2000, the journey went something like this. I had two friends in a M/s dynamic, they noted I was a bit different and took me out to a BDSM club night as soon as I was of age. From that venue there was information on local organizations for learning more about BDSM. When meeting partners is was always a hope they'd bring up something kinky in conversation, or things would just be a little rough the first time things got physical. It was a bit of an effort to be involved and hard for an 18 year old without a car to figure out how to connect with the community.

Now, there is fetlife. The local TNG happy hour has quadrupled in size since fetlife gained in popularity in 2009. People find out about fetlife everywhere! From there it is a few clicks away to active discussions going on within local groups. People who just kinda like the idea of kink are signing up. Many people have fetishes on their profiles which aren't even fetishes. Dungeon spaces are everywhere, however the educational groups have not seen a huge increase in size.

After my unwanted 3 year break from kinky activity, back in 2008 I had collarme, and it was easy to find local groups to attend (I also had a car!). It took me a couple weeks to connect with the community.

So the question is:
Is easier access a good thing?

Is bigger better?

What is there to make of people who actually have no interest in kink but think it's cool to look kinky?

Is there a loss of safety with expansion?

Is there a loss of values?

I'm also certain this has happened before, when the Old Guard, well became the Old Guard.

Thoughts? Opinions?

_____________________________

~ s.

Oh my darling, give me reason
give me something to believe in

You need a spankin' baby!

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 4:52:07 AM

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quote:

What is there to make of people who actually have no interest in kink but think it's cool to look kinky?

This is why I don't like the big South Florida fetish parties.

(in reply to sheisreeds)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 4:59:04 AM

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From: Apple County NY
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More information and easier access to information is always a good thing. Censorship of information is bad. Prior to the internet I had no idea people did this for real. I was lucky that for a couple of years there was an alternative bookstore in town and I could find novels involving wiitwd to spark my imagination. I still would not have known where to find another person who wanted to do this.

Whether bigger is better is not a question that can be answered definitively. It depends on the group and the individual.

People who wear black leather are not necessarily aping kinky fashion. They could be motorcycle riders, goth, emo or have read too damned many vampire novels. And even if the inspiration for dressing that way is a Lady Gaga video, who cares? How does it remove the pleasure you take in your clothes that they take equal pleasure in theirs?

Can there be a loss of safety in a bigger group? Certainly but there can just as easily be more safety because the small group could be composed entirely of unsafe people. Bigger equals more information, more people with different views, and more knowledge. The fact is you are looking for a definitive way for people to do this and there isn't one. What is safe for you could be unsafe for me because of my physical limitations and psychological hangups and vice versa.

I'm not sure what you're asking about the Old Guard. I do know what it is that is entirely different between then and now. The cops are not going to break into my home hoping to find me having sex while wearing black leather or being spanked or tied up. The police then did have the right to break into a private home to find two males having sex. The lack of open information back then was what was required to lessen the risk of being arrested for being homosexual. It was the fact that they were homosexual that put them at risk, adding a flogger to it did not make the risk greater. Stonewall riots in NYC were in June 1969, which is the first time and place where homosexuality was decriminalized in this country. San Francisco laws changed the following year.

_____________________________

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(in reply to sheisreeds)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 6:58:49 AM

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Folks of my generation "woke up" in their late thirties, early forties because we never experienced what you describe at ages 16-35.

(in reply to sheisreeds)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 8:07:04 AM

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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
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Is easier access a good thing?

Yes, I think it is. Until I learned about kink, I thought there was something seriously wrong with me, that I was the only one in the universe with these thoughts and feelings (I know, but I was young). Meeting and getting to know other kinky people significantly improved my sense of who I am in so many ways.

I have met many people in real life who I first met online. One couple in particular (married 15 years, wanted to transition into M/s) I met in person after about 2 months of online and phone chatting. I will never forget the looks on their faces when we first met: She looks so *normal* !!

This is why I am constantly pushing people to get to their local munch; meeting other kinky people is wonderfully self affirming.

Is bigger better?

In my lifetime I have seen kink go from something that was the biggest, darkest secret in the world (really, you never trusted anyone without the secret handshake), to (almost) mainstream acceptance. So I have to say yes to that question.

What is there to make of people who actually have no interest in kink but think it's cool to look kinky?

Looking kinky is the latest fad in rebellion garb. Fashion trends come and go, I'm more of a classics girl, myself.

Is there a loss of safety with expansion?

I don't think it's expansion itself that has caused some loss of safety, but how we have expanded, which is via the internet. Don't get me wrong, I love the internet and couldn't imagine my life without it. However, it does have the huge double edged sword (advantage/disadvantage) of being completely anonymous. This attracts predators of all kinds. (Fifteen years go identity theft was practically unheard of, in the last five years it's become a major concern. From something I recently read {but have not confirmed}one in four people have been a victim.)

Predators of all ilks are drawn to BDSM sites (and all other match up sites) because they see a pool of easy victims (on both sides of the kneel). Lonely, desperate people yearning for someone with like minded interests can easily fall prey to an accomplished con artist/predator.

Is there a loss of values?

In my opinion, based on people I have met real life for the past 35 years, I have to say no. The young adults just coming into BDSM these days in *real time* settings have universally great values and are keen to make it clear early on that they monitor the group for inappropriate behavior. Most groups have a rather complicated system for evaluating such transgressions, and won't hesitate to toss a member out if they can't measure up to standards.

But this is, of course, in a group settings. Random, anonymous individuals on the internet have no such monitoring. I admit to being highly biased against cyber only relationships. I admit my mind cannot wrap itself around someone who claims to love a person and be there Master/slave or Dom/sub or whatever, and yet has no intention of ever meeting that person. There is a personal disconnct there I don't get, and that I believe results in much loss of values. You don't really *have* to be responsible for your sub if it's all just online, right? When you don't have to worry about physical responsibility, I think you can easily forget emotional responsibility. And that concerns me greatly.

I'm also certain this has happened before, when the Old Guard, well became the Old Guard.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Interesting question, let's attempt to define Old Guard.

http://www.evilmonk.org/A/grubin.cfm

I think the old and the new both have a great deal of value. One of the challenges encountered by young adults entering BDSM these days is the glut of (often conflicting) information. I imagine it takes a while to find your feet in such a sea of information.

In my opinion as a virtual and non virtual community we have become less insular, more open and accepting, at the same time we have lost some of our early identity (that being the one true Old Guard way.) Although I think it's marvelous the one true way has expanded to encompass many one true ways, it must make it very difficult for the newbie person trying to acquire information with such a surplus of choices.

_____________________________

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 8:23:12 AM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I guess the answer in my eyes revolves around why you do what you do...

For me, I am not into clubs so much. I have been to a munch, never to a dungeon, so I suppose I do not understand the scene you speak of. I can only think it is good for the business end of the community that more and more people are going to clubs, buying toys, and purchasing fetwear. It makes it more likely you will find a play partner (if that is what you are currently seeking) if you have more people to choose from. Basically, from purely a business point of view, and a mating point of view, it is a good thing..

For those who like to exclude others based upon not being "true" and "real", probably not such a good thing. There will always be groups within groups, for those who like to get their discriminating kink on, they can always deny access to some, and invite others to private parties.... problem solved

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sheisreeds)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 8:30:32 AM

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From: Here To Eternity.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sheisreeds

So the question is:
Is easier access a good thing?

Yes

quote:

Is bigger better?

Sometimes.

quote:

What is there to make of people who actually have no interest in kink but think it's cool to look kinky?

Fashion trends change all the time. Just be glad you weren't around during the "leisure suit" years.

quote:

Is there a loss of safety with expansion?

Not necessarily.

quote:

Is there a loss of values?

I don't think so. But then I can only speak for myself. Having access to more kink info hasn't caused me a loss of values. I stay true to myself & my values.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

What is there to make of people who actually have no interest in kink but think it's cool to look kinky?

This is why I don't like the big South Florida fetish parties.

I think you may be referring to the big Fetish Factory parties. I steer clear of them since they're at clubs with bars & alcohol is served. My personal rule is not to play after having a drink or two. Same goes for a play partner.

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(in reply to sheisreeds)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 11:07:26 AM

OwnedFemaleFlesh

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I'm absolutely sure this is what the regulars thought when us newbies started showing up around the late 90s, early 00s. I remember getting the internet, discovering yahoo chat, and then msn chatrooms, being introduced to D/s by men who talked to me about it, and just going for it, full steam ahead, wanting to do everything all at once, and probably annoying the hell out of everyone else who'd been into it before the internet blew the lid off BDSM.

The thing is, BDSM is always a growing scene - it has been since the Victorian era, when books like Venus in Furs were published and sexologists started including it in their catalogues of perversion. Everything you think might be a downside now, was probably a downside then. Even at my age, which is not particularly old, I can't help but look at newbies with a certain amount of wariness and contempt. They get it all wrong! They have no idea of safety, they have fetishes which aren't even fetishes, and they think their fetishes are BDSM. Not to mention, they run discriminatory clubs based on age, sexuality, gender, even religion!

Ultimately, it isn't about the scene, or safety, or values or any of that. It's about people having a BDSM sexuality and wanting to explore it. And despite any possible drawbacks, that has got to be a good thing. Trying to turn back the clock now would simply be a case of pulling up the drawbridge after we've already gone over. We owe it to all those we irritated 10 years ago, to smile and grin as the newbies flooding in irritate us now.

What goes around, comes around lol.

owned xxx

(in reply to sheisreeds)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 1:40:07 PM

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I agree that increased information and access is a good thing. I was late to the game (not counting the "dom" I had in my teens) after discovering BDSM through porn. I wish there had been something like Fetlife around back when I was a newb, it would have saved me so much time, energy, and heartache. Those who are only doing it for the sake of appearance will eventually sift out, and those who are truly kinky will continue on in their own way.

_____________________________

~Fox~

Packmate of Max

Fukin Trollop, whipping boi, and unapologetic uberslut

I can't shake this feeling in my head
There's a Devil sleeping in my bed

(in reply to OwnedFemaleFlesh)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 2:06:44 PM

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From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BurntKitty

Fashion trends change all the time. Just be glad you weren't around during the "leisure suit" years.

This really needs to be a Sunny Quote of the Day.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to BurntKitty)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 2:34:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sheisreeds

Thoughts? Opinions?

To be honest, I really don't give this kind of stuff much thought. Maybe I'm not "lifestyle" enough...maybe because I'm an early Gen Xer and didn't grow up posting my every waking moment on Facebook like the Gen Ys and Zs...maybe because I know that wearing a certain "look" will only be cool until the next big thing comes along. I don't know.

I do know that the internet has made it easier for people to do a whole host of things...for better or worse.

(in reply to sheisreeds)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 3:01:31 PM

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I'd like to touch on ChatteParfait's comments about online versus real time. I dont disagree with her, but there is an added dimension.

One of my dates off cm was with a former Asian pro domme who lived in san Francisco. She flew to visit me. (We split the cost of the plane ticket.) I lived in Iowa at the time. She knows the Knotty Boys personally. I asked her, kinda stunned, why she would even consider dating outside san Francisco. She responded, "The scene is a good place to play, a great place to learn, and a horrible place to date." Since then many women have told me how incestuous their local scene is. I think cm is a great place for real life people to find romance, dorky as that might sound, and the local communities dont offer that so much.

Second, this reminds me of one of SimplyMichael's posts about the difference between this message board and the local scene.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2374050

Everything is a tool. Use it for what it will give you.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 4:16:49 PM

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I don't really enjoy bdsm clubs, groups, dungeons, etc...so none of them have ever done anything at all for me.

They just seemed like the same reason people go to bars...a place to hook up for someone for the night under the guise of "hanging out with friends".

And really that's just not my thing at all since I tend t steer towards dating long term and monogamously.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 4:28:07 PM

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Littlewonder, did you meet your man online? I don't recall.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 4:47:40 PM

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Thank you everyone for the thoughtful responses. To start I'm going to address my own questions, so my bias it out there. I plan to respond to comments individually when I'm less brain dead from work ;)

Is easier access a good thing?

Overall, I say yes. I was definitely saner and safer when I resurfaced in BDSM and was able to access sites like Collarme. When it was easy to encounter BDSM tablers at other sorts of events. Rather than running blind, I had a lot of people to guide me, and my life isn't definitely more fulfilling. I couldn't have done it without the internet.

I also have a fetlife account, which has been great to have. I can see which of my friends are going where, have indepth discussions on specific interests, and keep up with those I care about.

However, everyone and their mom has a fetlife account now. Collarme is similar in a lot of ways, lots of BS profiles, predators, etc. However, the difference with fetlife is that is specifically a social networking site. You can find every local group, event, and venue within 5 minutes of logging in. So where a lot of us had to do some footwork to figure out where to go to meet others like us, a lot of these newer folk do not. I've met quite a few who explicitly state they are not into kink, they are just there to hang out. Also predators can make it into the real world a lot easier. Most groups have fairly good monitoring and controls, my local TNG does have an under 35 policy that is enforced if there are creepy old dudes.

Is bigger better?

Yes and no. Right now there are a ton of different groups locally, each with a membership over 50, most have membership in the hundreds. The issue right now is they are all about the same. Hopefully with time they will begin to differentiate a bit. Scene expansion did cause the local goth club fetish night to restart. Groups are starting to focus more locally, create membership policies, 101 prerequisites, and starting their own education sessions.

Eventually, I'll say selfishly, I'd like to see a new old guard. Those of us who have 24/7 dynamics, engage in a lot of edge play, specialized skills, etc having our own group. This happens informally now, and maybe it always will, and that is fine. However, it is hard at times to feel comfortable at an event when I'm into blood play, and everyone else is into the occasional spanking. However, walking up to one of my friends and talking about scalpels is a great way to clear the area and have a private conversation.

Thankfully, most parties have not been an interest to those who are barely interested. Almost all cost between 20 and 35 to get in. This is for fully equipped, and well maintained dungeon spaces. Which isn't worth it for people who just want to stand around.

What is there to make of people who actually have no interest in kink but think it's cool to look kinky?

These folks used to just piss me off, and now they are starting to scare me. With the creation of new groups, now these guys are starting to organize. They have been starting to have their own events, often renting the same spaces reputable groups own. Which is fine in theory however . . . for a laugh my partner and I went to one and were floored and terrified about how poorly anyone there, including the organizers, understood about running a dungeon. There was no sense of basic protocol (not interrupted, standing to close, or walking through scenes in progress). They removed all the lights from the medical area, leaving both tables in near darkness. The place was all and all a freaking hazard. Overall, this was fine as practically no one was playing (believe it or not for $30 a head most of them watched TV the entire time). However, people get dumb, and do dumb things. It's important that someone there have a lick of sense.

These folks have tentative involvement with the more formal scene of classes, and events. However, they have no clue what they don't know. They also are often the first people other new people meet.

I'll be so glad when fetish is out of fashion. However, I am not talking about people wearing spiked collars, I'm talking about people who are showing up with no vested interest in why these venues and groups are there.

Is there a loss of safety with expansion?

Really covered this above. Though to add to it, people can now get just enough knowledge to try things like fire play and needle play with no proper training whatsoever. Come to a munch or purely social gathering or two, and you can get to a party. I have seen some reckless shit. I have seen needles too deep, and some ridiculous ideas on how to play with fire. People can get exposed really quickly, and begin doing dumb things very quickly.

People have the right to do dumb shit, but I'd rather they do it at home. Folks running these venues try to catch what they can. Organizers try to coach their peers and get them some real schooling when they see blatant dangerousness. Though I've seen an overall rise of it in the past year. As the numbers of people coming in are rising too quickly for organizers to catch up.

I do agree there is also an increase in safety. I have enough knowledge to know how to look for safe people if going outside the community, have plenty of people to verify safe people in the community. I know at least 1 expert on just about everything, I always have an ear to listen to and check for ways to make my insane ideas safer. Despite play much harder, more often, and with a larger variety of toys my play is actually safer than it was before.

Is there a loss of values?

Right now, totally! In the future hopefully things will rebound. It seems like there is an invasion of new attendees every spring, by summer problems emerge, and by fall there is corrective action and that sticks. The local TNG went to having no membership, to now having membership, to now having a required dungeon 101 prior to attending any even that involves play. Hopefully soon there will be an increase in education.

My guess is that it will even out to more sometimes kinky folks having some involvement in the scene and being more out, and a wider level of acceptance for all of us.

_____________________________

~ s.

Oh my darling, give me reason
give me something to believe in

You need a spankin' baby!

(in reply to RedMagic1)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 6:00:27 PM

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we talked online. We met in person and went our separate ways for awhile until we agreed to meet again and we dated and got to know one another in real life.

Online he was just another name on a screen to me. Until we met in person and spent time in person that's all he was...just a name on a screen.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 6:08:18 PM

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Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

Hello,
An interesting point. Perhaps the internet has made things more accessible, more information/education is available. Perhaps we now have a lot more people who play rather than live a lifestyle... and who have interactions with each other. I don't think more people are involved in activities, but more people are connecting, and the connecting is easier.

Also, one thing I see is that previously, the folks who were "into" wiitwd, were 24/7, or very serious in what they did. Now, it's a lot more easy going.

On Fet Life, I see a lot more people expressing "play" rather than "lifestyle" and to me it seems more of a bell curve. The all or nothing POV that was once in the f2f scene of years ago, is not as prevalent. I rather like that. I like that there is more fluidity and openness. It seems more real to me, more accepting(?)...

Best,
sunshine

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 6:12:37 PM

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Joined: 11/26/2007
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Sunny
Quote of the Day
goes to
BurntKitty

for
Just be glad you weren't around during
the "leisure suit" years.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3656437/tm.htm

Thanks to Celeste for the suggestion!

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to BurntKitty)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 6:19:26 PM

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I'm not into the club scene or public play, but I am grateful for the internet providing various avenues for discussion amongst like (and unlike) minds on the topic. I think the more information out there, the better.

I actually like Fetlife because of the groups centered around M/s and O/p relationships. There's so much variety on that site - from play only, to serious relationships only, and everything in between. There's a place for everybody and the more expansive the internet becomes, the more apt people are to find their niche and where they're comfortable.

I've dabbed a toe into my "local" scene a few times and have realized I have found more like minded people online than off, at this time. This isn't to criticize who they are, per se, just that it's not the place for me.

I see people implying here & there (in general) that "play only" or "kinky cool" stuff is a bad thing. I don't see the bad in it - if people are getting their groove on and happy doing so, more power to 'em! I'm all for people finding their bliss.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to sheisreeds)

RE: Fetlife, and the expanding BDSM scene. - 5/2/2011 6:22:44 PM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I am wondering if you realize that the things you are bitching about are nothing new. Since the time you say you "found" BDSM lifestyle out I have been reading these gripes in the "scene". These gripes did not just surface with the advent of fetlife.

The only group I ever hung out with was one from Southern California. Most of these people had been doing this for years. They encouraged me to go to the local dungeon, but since I had no interest in public play outside of a relationship I passed on it. I had never heard anyone in this group bitch about the things you listed here. They seemed generally interested in being as mainstream as anyone else with the exemption of their kink...

If you find that people are behaving dangerously in rented space, perhaps you should report this to the owners of the property as they might be held liable. In the end we all have to be responsible for our own behavior, and if something isn't kosher, we leave and do not take part.

As far as education about safety, etc, be a part of the solution and try to further that by having groups you associate with hold workshops, etc. Be a part of the solution instead of just talking about it as a problem. In the end we are all responsible to educate ourselves about dangerous activities. For example, I do not see many people complaining about amateurs doing construction on their own homes and damaging them. You do something stupid, like jump your car incorrectly and electrocute yourself, well you pay for that.

Lastly, to be honest, your post reads like many of those who want to belong to some imagined past where everyone was "old guard", it sounds like you have a romanticized an ideal that you believe you can somehow recreate. Good luck with that. You also read a bit like someone who wants a social distinction of somehow being truer or more real, etc etc etc, based upon some BDSM country club mentality... you know, some form of BDSM elitism....

I have had a few discussions with people from a group based out of Fresno because at one point I thought of joining it. I ended up in a relationship with my last dom that lasted almost 5 years, and we never did the public thing. I remember the people in Fresno seemed so down to earth, so NOT into being exclusionary, and they had been at it for decades. This is the only type of group that appeals to me, personally, but then again I am not into showing off how kinky I am in public, not that there is anything wrong with that mind you, some enjoy it a great deal,.... just isn't my personal kink.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sheisreeds)

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