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Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 5:32:21 AM

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It's been in the news in the UK and frankly I was first shocked, a company was targeting homeless people for beatdown videos was the big headline, so the other day I wanted to look up what happened, because I talked to a few guys who worked for the company (none of them were homeless, for some odd reason they actually liked doing the videos, I found that a bit crazy given that they got injuries, but hell, if it's their kink, I don't need to understand it), so when I last looked it up, it seems there is only a civil lawsuit against the company. I'm not familiar with the US laws, but wouldn't there be a criminal investigation and the company would be shut down?

Anyway, there are lots of different links, some quite sensational with little details, the one with the most details seems to be this one

Florida Court Case

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RE: Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 5:58:05 AM

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Hi LC

I think I get why this one is kind of murky. Since there's a contract, the cops are generally going to consider the civil courts, rather than the criminal courts the correct venue. It's not like there's a fraud going on here.- what do you charge the company with? Battery? Take an example of a legitimate business- that of Hollywood stuntman. They get paid to do stunts- some of them risky. There's nothing illegal about it- but sometimes they get hurt or killed. What's the difference here? Answer- the stuntmen/women understand the risks.

Yes, the homeless folks don't understand what's going on. Since we don't evaluate people for sanity before signing a contract, what exactly did the corporation do wrong? Note- I'm not saying that their actions aren't as unethical as hell, but the sad fact is that the US's safety net is pretty tattered when it comes to the mentally ill, and this is just one more example of how they can be exploited- and sad to say, probably legally. The company was stupid- if they'd recruited from people who were really into this stuff, they'd have avoided the lawsuit. Unless, of course, they think that all publicity is good.

Sam

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 6:14:51 AM

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Sam,

Thanks, I have to admit that if homeless people were actively recruited, I'm pretty damned disgusted, but - I only spoke to 2 or 3 guys - who were up for that kinda thing, they actually seemed to like it and while I didn't ask about how they live, none of them mentioned being homeless (I might be jumping to conclusions here, but I'd think a homeless person wouldn't have computer access and post on CM). With some I thought they might be a bit errr funny, as they had severe damages and went back, but then I thought hell, if somebody likes needles, whippings, etc. it's possibly the same thing only most people wouldn't want to damage a play partner and consenting adults can do whatever they want...

I was basically just wondering as the first articles I saw about it made it look like it was a massive case, then it seems to have fizzled away despite the outrage lots of people had. So I've been wondering if part of it isn't just a media stunt. TBO was actually going very strong against the company and the owner, but even they seem to back off now

http://video.tbo.com/v/40601480/lawsuit-against-shefight-website.htm

I mean there were news about criminal investigations and hate crime, how could that all go away?

The older stuff is this

http://video.tbo.com/v/39461361/criminal-investigation-in-homeless-beatings.htm

I mean if there were at least 10 guys who suffered through that, how come only 2 decided to join the lawsuit? From my understanding they are suing for compensation.

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(in reply to samboct)

RE: Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 6:26:25 AM

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So perhaps the whole thing was a publicity stunt?

I can understand why at first blush there was an investigation into hate crime since homeless men have been attacked before simply for being homeless. However, if homeless individuals just got caught up in a broader net- that's hard to show as a hate crime.

The anger against the homeless in this country is quite awful. I've heard some DJs in New Jersey who display a lack of empathy about these individuals that makes me want to put them between a Greyhound bus and a building. They are considered sub human and not worthy of any kind of dignity. If the DJs were smarter, I'd think that this anger towards the homeless is guilt- that the public policies of the right which have swelled the ranks of the homeless are their responsibility. But hey- that's a different thread topic.

Cheers,

Sam

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 6:36:02 AM

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I would guess most of the guys don't like being homeless and that it's not a nice way to live your life, maybe the people hating them so much should think how easily they could be in their shoes?

Last week I stumbled over an interview with the owner of the website (just can't find it anymore) where he claimed that he was actually targeted and the guys were paid by the person who sued them to make those statements...

To be honest, it all seems like a complete and utter clusterfuck.

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(in reply to samboct)

RE: Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 6:59:42 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I'm not familiar with the US laws, but wouldn't there be a criminal investigation and the company would be shut down?

Well, it can be easier to win a civil suit than win a criminal conviction. I guess OJ Simpson is one example of that, he was found not guilty in the criminal trial but was found guilty in the civil trial and had to pay the families compensation.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 7:05:47 AM

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Well, I just assumed that for certain crimes there are criminal charges and an attorney of state will prosecute, at least that's how it works on this side of the pond, I thought it was the same way in the US, the civil trials mainly seem to deal with compensation...

For example if I cause an accident by reckless driving and injure you, you can sue me in a private lawsuit for compensation, you don't have to sue me for a criminal conviction as the attorney of state will do that, because reckless driving and injuring somebody are crimes, in fact even if you won't sue me for compensation, I still will be prosecuted by the attorney of state... So I don't understand why there is no criminal investigation, especially since people claim they were injured and so far I haven't found a country where you can actually give consent for abuse...

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RE: Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 7:40:09 AM

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red would know better, but as far as i understand down here, you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt for a criminal case. for a civil, you just have to prove "clear and convincing evidence" or "preponderance of the evidence" (in order of level of proof, taken from wiki)

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RE: Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 7:40:43 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Well, I just assumed that for certain crimes there are criminal charges and an attorney of state will prosecute, at least that's how it works on this side of the pond, I thought it was the same way in the US, the civil trials mainly seem to deal with compensation...

For example if I cause an accident by reckless driving and injure you, you can sue me in a private lawsuit for compensation, you don't have to sue me for a criminal conviction as the attorney of state will do that, because reckless driving and injuring somebody are crimes, in fact even if you won't sue me for compensation, I still will be prosecuted by the attorney of state... So I don't understand why there is no criminal investigation, especially since people claim they were injured and so far I haven't found a country where you can actually give consent for abuse...

I am only guessing but I would think if there was enough evidence that criminal charges would be pursued. But there is a greater burden of proof with criminal vs civil, if that proof isnt there then they arent likely to use tax dollars to prosecute something that is not winable. Its hard to know what the law is, each state has different laws and how laws are worded can make a big difference in ability to prosecute. But who knows, there may not have been any police complaint about this at all, it might be all about the money. Some companies will settle frivilous lawsuits cuz the legal cost to fight can be higher than paying them off. That could be the angle.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 7:46:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Some companies will settle frivilous lawsuits cuz the legal cost to fight can be higher than paying them off. That could be the angle.

Wow, that's an "interesting" way to make money... What if the company then turns around and decides to go for you? Bit risky I'd think...

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RE: Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 2:00:40 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Some companies will settle frivilous lawsuits cuz the legal cost to fight can be higher than paying them off. That could be the angle.

Wow, that's an "interesting" way to make money... What if the company then turns around and decides to go for you? Bit risky I'd think...

Anyone can be sued, it is up to a court to decide if the case has merit and who wins. Yes, there are people that do that kinda thing. Assuming the party that was sued then countersued, who is to say that they would get any $? The ones suing tend to be "bulletproof", in other words, you can countersue them but if they have no money or assets, then you dont get anything even if you win.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 2:13:10 PM

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I am kinda glad to be in Europe, where there is such a thing as "frivolous lawsuits" and you can actually get slapped for wasting valuable court time...

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RE: Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 2:23:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I am kinda glad to be in Europe, where there is such a thing as "frivolous lawsuits" and you can actually get slapped for wasting valuable court time...

...if only we'd penalize people in our courts for such things...but as long as our lawmakers are the same ones who directly profit from the laws and legal procedures they create it will never happen. The biggest conflict of interest and cash cow possible....What you have in punishing people who file frivolous suits, is a built in deterrent to lawyers making money.

One of the most sensible proposals I have ever heard was to ban attorneys from being eligible to run for ANY public/government office...no matter where and no matter what the office...and banned for life from public office to boot so they cannot become lobbyists. Our laws are needlessly complex for a reason....

Limit lawyers to trying cases and to act as judges.

MC

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Florida Court Case - 5/31/2011 6:49:37 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I am kinda glad to be in Europe, where there is such a thing as "frivolous lawsuits" and you can actually get slapped for wasting valuable court time...

Well, I dont get all the tv court shows like Judge Judy, etc.. I dont know if that qualifies as actual real court but it sure is a waste of valuable time.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Florida Court Case - 6/1/2011 3:26:52 AM

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I only heard of that, I refuse to have cable and get all the "great" US shows, you know like Springer and I guess this "Judge July" business...

Slowly the ambulance chasing mentality is coming to Europe, but you can get fined if you're just taking the time of the court with nonsense, usually most lawyers will tell you that you aren't getting anywhere and there is no point, as they don't want their names attached to "frivolous lawsuits" - from my understanding the US maintains the right that anybody can sue anybody else over whatever they like and the court decides, on this side of the pond the court will then - in some cases - also decide that you wasted their time and fine you accordingly. Also if you are "bulletproof" as you put it, and you can't be counter-sued, this helps, because the court will then put the burden of all payment on the person who sued frivolously (including all costs), now you may default on the personal payment of the other party and they have to get a title against you, but you really really don't want to default on money you owe the court/state, if you can't pay, well you go to jail.

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RE: Florida Court Case - 6/1/2011 7:16:20 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I only heard of that, I refuse to have cable and get all the "great" US shows, you know like Springer and I guess this "Judge July" business...

Slowly the ambulance chasing mentality is coming to Europe, but you can get fined if you're just taking the time of the court with nonsense, usually most lawyers will tell you that you aren't getting anywhere and there is no point, as they don't want their names attached to "frivolous lawsuits" - from my understanding the US maintains the right that anybody can sue anybody else over whatever they like and the court decides, on this side of the pond the court will then - in some cases - also decide that you wasted their time and fine you accordingly. Also if you are "bulletproof" as you put it, and you can't be counter-sued, this helps, because the court will then put the burden of all payment on the person who sued frivolously (including all costs), now you may default on the personal payment of the other party and they have to get a title against you, but you really really don't want to default on money you owe the court/state, if you can't pay, well you go to jail.

Well, I understand that in France, if you are charged, you are considered guilty until you prove yourself innocent. Now, to me, that is totally scary. I think I will take this system (warts and all) over one like that.

< Message edited by tj444 -- 6/1/2011 7:18:31 AM >

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Florida Court Case - 6/1/2011 7:42:40 AM

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I don't know how you came to "understand" that, as far as I know, European countries handle things in that respect the same way the US does - innocent until proven guilty, but I only live here, so don't take my word for it...

Btw does that come from the same school as "All French women don't shave their legs, all Italians eat is pizza and spaghetti, Germans goose step and Scandinavians walk around mumbling "Smoerebroet, Smoerebroet" and all Swiss are filthy rich..."

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RE: Florida Court Case - 6/1/2011 9:01:44 AM

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I have a prediction.

Hate crimes charge will fail – there was no discrimination.
New criminal charges should arise – battery. There is no such thing as consensual battery. You can’t beat your wife, or in some states spank your children even with their consent.

The civil aspects will get settled out of court – when it costs more for medical attention of your injuries than you got paid, there are grounds for compensation.

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RE: Florida Court Case - 6/1/2011 9:32:17 AM

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The whole battery thing concerned me, but as Sam brought up, stuntmen also have injuries...

Seriously, I try to be open minded about other people's kinks but I fail to see how anybody would willingly take the risks of broken bones or teeth being knocked out without sufficient compensation to repair the damages. But then again, people sign up for medical experiments all the time...

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RE: Florida Court Case - 6/1/2011 12:19:08 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I don't know how you came to "understand" that, as far as I know, European countries handle things in that respect the same way the US does - innocent until proven guilty, but I only live here, so don't take my word for it...

Btw does that come from the same school as "All French women don't shave their legs, all Italians eat is pizza and spaghetti, Germans goose step and Scandinavians walk around mumbling "Smoerebroet, Smoerebroet" and all Swiss are filthy rich..."

I have read that about France a few times, something about Napoleanic law? If it is that way, it scares me big time, its easy enough for someone to fabricate falsehoods in this country with the laws here.

No, I dont know what French women do or dont do, I just know there are some dam sexy French undies, pricey but very yum yum.

I doubt all Swiss are filthy rich but if you want to immigrate there I think ya gotta be.

Dont know about the rest. On Oprah a few years ago they showed Tina Turners home in the south of France, I saw the view from her infinity pool and fell in love.

< Message edited by tj444 -- 6/1/2011 12:21:42 PM >

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

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