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RE: Alcoholism - 7/2/2011 8:13:37 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: areallivehuman

Original Poster, I am going to share what will be a fairly unpopular opinion. Alcoholism is not a disease.

If it were an opinion, it might be unpopular. Since it's counterfactual, it's simply wrong.

The verdict was in a few weeks ago: it's a genetically inherited disease.

And, yes, you can control some illnesses yourself using the same means by which you can control alcoholism: strict adherence to dietary restrictions. For phenylketonuria, you avoid foods with phenylalanine. There are diets which address diabetes, some epilepsies, metabolic disorders, some gastrointestinal disorders, some heart disorders, and so forth. Indeed, many such diets also turn out to require support groups for a lot of people, as it can be damn hard to adhere to a diet which entails effectively being excluded from normal participation in any kind of social event which involves food or drink (e.g. föllings aka phenylketonuria, where virtually any ordinary food or drink has a significant probability of rendering you brain damaged for life).

Opinions apply to other things than facts. Replacing a fact with an opinion is called having a delusion.

Which means you've got a choice whether or not to be ill. Will wonders never cease?

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to areallivehuman)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/2/2011 10:03:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: areallivehuman

Original Poster, I am going to share what will be a fairly unpopular opinion. Alcoholism is not a disease. It is a matter of personal choice. The recognized cure for alcoholism, AA , is a change in thought process. If you can cure it in your own head, it isn't a disease. I might listen to the argument that it is a mental disease, but even then you don't hear about manic-depressives healing themselves. I can't control disease. I can control myself.
I'm not saying AA/12 Step programs are bad, they work for a lot of people and that's great. It's just not the only choice.

Oddly enough, the AMA doesn't agree with you.

Actually the AMA has not definitively made the distinction between disease or disorder. It is considered among addiction disorders. "Illness" and "disease" are not interchangeable. "Manic depression" is a mental illness, but it is not a disease. Alcoholism would fall under the umbrella of behavioral disorders.

I respect Kalista07's experience in this area, but every doctor still doesn't make a distinction between it being a disease or a disorder. I could find nothing about the AMA, which is, I believe, an association that doctors are required to be a member of that stated alcholism was defnitively a disease. Yes, there are many organizations that believe it is a disease, but that doesn't mean it is accepted by the medical community as a whole. To date, alcoholism is listed in the DSM IV, which is the "bible" within the medical community for disorders, not diseases.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

And because it's not an illness I guess the hospital shouldn't have kept my father in for a week, on medication to prevent convulsions as he detoxed?

And of course I must be wrong in saying it's genetic just because it's been in the last four generations of my family? I'm sure it was there earlier but we have no data from before my great-grandfather immigrated here.

If you have any credentials, live, then I suggest you present them. Otherwise we'll feel free to scoff at this absurd assertion.

There's no cure for lots of chronic illnesses. Does that mean a diabetic doesn't really have an illness because insulin is just a treatment, not a cure?

If someone breaks their leg, and is hospitalized, they still don't have a "disease." Pnuemonia often requires hospitalization but still isn't classified as a disease.

As LC said, there are some circumstances where genetics are involved, however, alcoholism being "passed down" to family members tend to be environmental, not genetic. Unless suffering from a genetic malady such as Poe, it is likely that having grown up seeing alcoholic behavior, that the behavior is repeated. Studies have shown this to be the case in alcoholism as well as teenage pregnancies. A person grows up seeing behavior and it is repeated.

That doesn't mean that medical intervention won't be necessary or that the disorder can not cause death without medical assistance.

< Message edited by LafayetteLady -- 7/2/2011 10:10:10 PM >

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/2/2011 10:08:34 PM

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Can you provide the link for this?

As the "discovery" was only made a few weeks ago, those of us who believe it is a disorder are not stating opinion, we are stating "facts" that were assumed correct until a few weeks ago. Very different.

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/2/2011 10:30:21 PM

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I can only tell you the information I utilize in my daily practice which is that in 1951 the World Health Organization recognized alcoholism as a serious medical problem. According to all of my research the AMA declared alcoholism a treatable disease in 1956.

Kali

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(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/2/2011 10:39:33 PM

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FR

Let's just cut the shit. I know how to drink and how not to drink and whatever.

Is it worth it ? That is up to the drinker. If you can't stand the drinking it is you or it to them. His choice, and don't be surprised to be out on the curb. ANYONE has a choice. I stopped for a time, for my health. There was always beer in the house. I chose not to drink it. There is nothing anyone can do. I choose to drink because I enjoy it. I don't get drunk every night. I do it when I please, that is my choice and so is with any adult.

There is NO HELP FROM ANYONE, get that through your head. It comes from inside. When you decide to drink, if you know what it will do, what you can handle and how much will give you a good time, nobody on this planet has the right to stop you. If you go over the limit and cause trouble, break shit, hurt people and you wind up in jail that is your fucking problem. And some of us just don't hate jail enough, but that is beside the point. Every beer in that case, every cigarette in that pack, every line on that mirror, every last thing on Earth is your choice.

Nobody can make you choose anything or decline it. If you want it you shall have it. The trick to not being addicted is to conciously say to yourself that you don't want it. Not to promise your spouse, Mom, kids, anyone else. And if they can't handle you doing what you want to do, kiss them goodbye. It happened to the olman. It happened to quite a few people I know. So be it, that's their choice. And fuck them when others make subsequent choices.

Life is life and it ain't pretty. Some people need an escape, and that is what ANY intoxicant is about, no exceptions. Drug of choice means shit. There is a difference between having a good time and burying your "feelings" in a buzz. A big difference. Someone under stress with whom I corresponded expressed a desire to come and tie one on. I said NO, that is not what it is for. You drink or whatever to have a good time. DO NOT use it as an escape, as hard as that really is in today's world.

And the world really sucks, we know that.

Now, in the OP, the guy was doing fine for a long time. What changed ? First of all people who work full time really can't cut loose except for on the weekends. That is not enough time to really fall into the hole. What happened, laid off ? What changed ? Something did. How can that be changed back so they can again be social and responsible ? How is it fixed ? Generations of my family had drinkers, and we ALWAYS knew that this loss of control is a symptom. You want quotes ? They will be by me, from my own family.

If someone calls you a fat ugly piece of shit, and you eat a dozen creme filled donuts, that is an improper response, and is the root of addiction. Myself, I refuse to eat, drink or be merry when things are going wrong. I party to have a good time. And I will not inbibe too much until those who I am going to share the experience with get caught up and WE can then have a good time.

You can't drown your sorrows because they don't require oxygen, and if you try too hard, neither will you.

Words to the wise, because I am a fucking expert on it.

T^T

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/3/2011 5:22:13 AM

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LL, having it listed in the DSM IV does not exclude it from being a disease. It just gives it a dual classification. The AMA classified it as a disease back in 1956 and has not changed it's standing. Individual physicians might disagree much like there is some disagreement among the lay people here, but that is probably due to the fact that most physicians receive very little training on the subject and so are left with just their own personal experience (from family) and bias.

In addition to the AMA, many other professional organisations such as the American College of Physicians as well as the branch of the NIH that deals with alcoholism specifically: the NIAAA. The official NIAAA position is that "alcoholism is a disease. "The craving that an alcoholic feels for alcohol can be as strong as the need for food or water. An alcoholic will continue to drink despite serious family, health, or legal problems. Like many other diseases, alcoholism is chronic, meaning that it lasts a person's lifetime; it usually follows a predictable course; and it has symptoms."... classify it as a disease.

My personal experience is that alcoholism has stages and having known a loved one who drank himself to death, I can tell you that no will was involved in his last bender: 70 cases of beer pretty much to the exclusion of everything else.

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RE: Alcoholism - 7/3/2011 6:54:43 AM

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quote:

Actually the AMA has not definitively made the distinction between disease or disorder. It is considered among addiction disorders. "Illness" and "disease" are not interchangeable.

Oh FFS.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/3/2011 7:05:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Actually the AMA has not definitively made the distinction between disease or disorder. It is considered among addiction disorders. "Illness" and "disease" are not interchangeable. "Manic depression" is a mental illness, but it is not a disease. Alcoholism would fall under the umbrella of behavioral disorders.

I respect Kalista07's experience in this area, but every doctor still doesn't make a distinction between it being a disease or a disorder. I could find nothing about the AMA, which is, I believe, an association that doctors are required to be a member of that stated alcholism was defnitively a disease. Yes, there are many organizations that believe it is a disease, but that doesn't mean it is accepted by the medical community as a whole. To date, alcoholism is listed in the DSM IV, which is the "bible" within the medical community for disorders, not diseases.

What is the significance of the distinction between "disease," "disorder," and "illness," and how is it important, practically speaking, for the purposes of the OP? In this context, the distinction seems a bit precious.

Also, a proposed neurobiological mechanism thought to underlie many addictive compulsions -- not only alcoholism, but around gambling, food, money, and sex -- is a dysregulation of the brain's reward system. If true, I don't know whether this would make alcoholism a disease, a disorder, or an illness. The disease model in AA helps identify what the alcoholic does and doesn't have power over, and is and isn't responsible for.

This could be an interesting discussion meriting its own thread.

< Message edited by eihwaz -- 7/3/2011 7:11:08 AM >

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RE: Alcoholism - 7/3/2011 8:21:56 AM

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i have to say that i have found this thread interesting. however, i personally have no direct experience of being or knowing someone who is an alcoholic except for someone who has been sober for around 15 years. i have spoken at length on various occassions to him about his own experiences and he has been very open with me about it.

so with what he says, and what i know of other areas i don't really think you can lable alcoholism as any one thing, disease, illness, disorder or whatever. in part it's probably all of them. i've seen genetics mentioned, but i don't think genetics directly relate to alcohol. i think genetics relate to possible habit and addiction predisposition. the thing is is that not everyone born from a line of alcoholics will be one themselves, nore a drug addict, but they may inherit an addictive personality so that they smoke, gamble, over eat etc etc etc. i do agree with the person who said that growing up in an enviroment where a behaviour is seen as pretty much normal will most likely result in that person with the addictive personality choosing the same path. on the flip side though, what about the person who is an alcoholic and has not come from a previous family line of alcoholics? people have many reasons for their 'drug' of choice and the reasons they use it. i was told that if i chose to use drink i have a high risk of becoming an alcoholic due to the fact that is doesn't affect me in the same way as it does other people. in fact it used to have very little influence on me at all and even now it will take much more than it does for anyone else. because of that it would be easy for me to become addicted because i would have to drink more to get the same buz everyone else gets, but that wouldn't stop the addiction taking hold. it would in fact hasten it due marly to volume. as it is i am really not interested in it and rarely drink. but i am very much awear that i have a high habit forming trait in me.

will power has been spoken about, and that is cool when it comes to habits. addiction is different altogether as it has a chemical affect on the body and brain, and will power alone will not break that. the will power comes in from breaking the ritual habits surrounding the addiction and not doing them. for instance; the smoker who has to have a smoke after a meal will usually find that one of the hardest to stop because it is part of such a strong part of their life. you have to eat and can't break that part of the cycle. will power will come into play after by not buying the thing you are addicted to in the first place and giving in to temptation.

as far as giving up for others is concerned, it can be a good part of the reason but i doubt it's ever stopped anyone as a whole reason. the person has to want to stop for themself. if B has decided that he wants to stop for himself and everyone around him then that is cool. i don't think you have to lose absolutely everything before you can stop, but i don't think you can stop for just everything around you.

what i've written probably isn't of any great value, but i just thought i'd add anyway.

i wish you all involved a great deal of luck and strength!

needles

(in reply to eihwaz)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/3/2011 8:37:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

i have to say that i have found this thread interesting. however, i personally have no direct experience of being or knowing someone who is an alcoholic except for someone who has been sober for around 15 years. i have spoken at length on various occassions to him about his own experiences and he has been very open with me about it.

so with what he says, and what i know of other areas i don't really think you can lable alcoholism as any one thing, disease, illness, disorder or whatever. in part it's probably all of them. i've seen genetics mentioned, but i don't think genetics directly relate to alcohol. i think genetics relate to possible habit and addiction predisposition. the thing is is that not everyone born from a line of alcoholics will be one themselves, nore a drug addict, but they may inherit an addictive personality so that they smoke, gamble, over eat etc etc etc. i do agree with the person who said that growing up in an enviroment where a behaviour is seen as pretty much normal will most likely result in that person with the addictive personality choosing the same path. on the flip side though, what about the person who is an alcoholic and has not come from a previous family line of alcoholics? people have many reasons for their 'drug' of choice and the reasons they use it. i was told that if i chose to use drink i have a high risk of becoming an alcoholic due to the fact that is doesn't affect me in the same way as it does other people. in fact it used to have very little influence on me at all and even now it will take much more than it does for anyone else. because of that it would be easy for me to become addicted because i would have to drink more to get the same buz everyone else gets, but that wouldn't stop the addiction taking hold. it would in fact hasten it due marly to volume. as it is i am really not interested in it and rarely drink. but i am very much awear that i have a high habit forming trait in me.

needles

Actually it seems to be the opposite of that: the higher your tolerance is the less likely you may have the predisposition towards becoming an alcoholic... or so one study suggests:
http://www.usatoday.com/yourlife/health/medical/2010-10-20-Alcoholism20_ST_N.htm
Because it is never how much you drink that determines whether you are an alcoholic or not... but what it does to you.

The more we know, the more we find we don't know... but as for families in which alcoholism seems to come out of the blue: you have to remember that alcoholics try to drink in secret and families often try to keep the secret and so you might never really know if it was in the family or not.

_____________________________

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(in reply to needlesandpins)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/3/2011 8:45:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Unless suffering from a genetic malady such as Poe, it is likely that having grown up seeing alcoholic behavior, that the behavior is repeated. Studies have shown this to be the case in alcoholism as well as teenage pregnancies. A person grows up seeing behavior and it is repeated.

Except that in my family it skips every other generation on my mother's side. My mother did not learn it from her mother, who did not drink She didn't learn it from her grandfather because her mother severed ties with him due to his abuse while drinking. She inherited it.

You can believe what you want. But the psychiatrists I've used have specialized in genetically inherited mental illnesses and they all agree that mood disorders and alcoholism can and frequently are inherited.

The DSM IV is behind in many things and needs updating. Neurobiology and neuropsychology have made many advances in the past few years that are not yet in the text books.

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RE: Alcoholism - 7/3/2011 8:58:24 AM

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Just a little interesting tangent here (sorry--yummee--don't mean to hijack but it's loosely related)
My grandfather had the gene we believe--and he definitely engaged in "alcoholic behavior" although he never identified as an alcoholic. Because my mother (his daughter) saw his drinking, and how it affected the family, she made a choice at a young age to stay away completely from the first drink--and that would prevent her from going down the same path.

a good idea, really. Except for one thing-- alcohol is essentially--to simplify things a lot--a sugar, to the body. My Mom never craved alcohol...but she developed an incredible addiction to SUGAR. I remember as a kid, seeing her sneak downstairs, in the middle of the night, hide in our kitchen closet and eat cookies. She could eat the entire frosting off of a cake without stopping--and could not control herself.

Affects on the family? yes. Not as dramatic as alcohol--but it definitely caused its stresses, and she "ruined" more than one birthday cake. we thought it was funny until she started suffering from eye problems and headaches, linked by her doctor directly to her vast amounts of sugar consumption. And yes, for a long period of time, she had to go completely without to kick the addiction. Thankfully--she's not a diabetic, still barely 100 lbs-- but even today, if she has ONE cookie....she has to lock up the rest or give them to a neighbor, friend or family member--because she told me that she is incapable of stopping once she starts.

I always found it fascinating that the disease of alcoholism (call it a disorder, call it whatever you want-- to me, it's still my disease) still managed to find a way to manifest itself even when it wasn't "fed" by alcohol.

(in reply to DesFIP)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/3/2011 9:01:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

i have to say that i have found this thread interesting. however, i personally have no direct experience of being or knowing someone who is an alcoholic except for someone who has been sober for around 15 years. i have spoken at length on various occassions to him about his own experiences and he has been very open with me about it.

so with what he says, and what i know of other areas i don't really think you can lable alcoholism as any one thing, disease, illness, disorder or whatever. in part it's probably all of them. i've seen genetics mentioned, but i don't think genetics directly relate to alcohol. i think genetics relate to possible habit and addiction predisposition. the thing is is that not everyone born from a line of alcoholics will be one themselves, nore a drug addict, but they may inherit an addictive personality so that they smoke, gamble, over eat etc etc etc. i do agree with the person who said that growing up in an enviroment where a behaviour is seen as pretty much normal will most likely result in that person with the addictive personality choosing the same path. on the flip side though, what about the person who is an alcoholic and has not come from a previous family line of alcoholics? people have many reasons for their 'drug' of choice and the reasons they use it. i was told that if i chose to use drink i have a high risk of becoming an alcoholic due to the fact that is doesn't affect me in the same way as it does other people. in fact it used to have very little influence on me at all and even now it will take much more than it does for anyone else. because of that it would be easy for me to become addicted because i would have to drink more to get the same buz everyone else gets, but that wouldn't stop the addiction taking hold. it would in fact hasten it due marly to volume. as it is i am really not interested in it and rarely drink. but i am very much awear that i have a high habit forming trait in me.

needles

Actually it seems to be the opposite of that: the higher your tolerance is the less likely you may have the predisposition towards becoming an alcoholic... or so one study suggests:
http://www.usatoday.com/yourlife/health/medical/2010-10-20-Alcoholism20_ST_N.htm
Because it is never how much you drink that determines whether you are an alcoholic or not... but what it does to you.

The more we know, the more we find we don't know... but as for families in which alcoholism seems to come out of the blue: you have to remember that alcoholics try to drink in secret and families often try to keep the secret and so you might never really know if it was in the family or not.

thanks for the link angelika. like i said, it's not something especially that i've done huge research into so i don't really know. it was a DR who told me this when asking me about other things as routien. i can see what he is saying though, the amount i would have to drink to get the same out of it as others is considerably more and the damage is still being done while my body doesn't think so. it made sence to me, but then i'm no expert.

all i do know for sure is that as we are all different substances and the influences around us have different affects on us. how we handle it is also different, hence saying that you can't just lable alcoholism with one term. i think if every addict was to me genetically screened i doubt they would find the same link in everyone within an addiction group. i just think people are prediposed to be addictive or not.

needles

(in reply to angelikaJ)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/3/2011 1:23:28 PM

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That would indicate that addiction is the disease not the "drug" of choice, whether it be alcohol or gambling.

Funny thing about sugar....I never really craved sugar (except for once a month, lol), and then I was diagnosed as diabetic. Now I find that I crave sugar much more than before. Psychological? Maybe. Even on diets, whatever food was "off limits," I felt like I couldn't live without it.

(in reply to hausboy)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/3/2011 7:00:16 PM

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yummee,

I agree with the suggestions of others that you consider Al-Anon or some other support group. In order to be the best possible help to your husband, you need to show up for yourself first.

With respect to both AA and Al-Anon, as others have noted, each individual group has its own personality, so it's advisable to try several groups to find one that works for you. Al-Anon speaks of sharing "experience, strength, and hope" -- you'll probably find the best help in groups tending to emphasize the latter two.

The harsh, judgmental excerpts from the discussion groups are examples of "cross-talk" which normally isn't permitted in Al-Anon meetings in order to provide a safe space for sharing. That said, in general, Al-Anon encourages people to "take what you like and leave the rest." Moreover, Al-Anon discourages giving advice, most especially unasked for advice.

I wish you the best in this journey you're on. You will need courage and love. From your posts, it sounds like you have plenty of both!

“If we enter into ourselves, finding our true self, and then passing 'beyond' the inner 'I,' we sail forth into the immense darkness in which we confront the 'I am' of the Almighty... Our inmost 'I' exists in God and God dwells in it..." -- Thomas Merton

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RE: Alcoholism - 7/4/2011 11:46:20 AM

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Always tricky isn't it, this drunk-talk?
What causes it?
How do we stop it?
How did it start?
Can we drink again?
Who's fault is it?

Why is it so much cheaper now that I don't drink? - Bastards!

In my humble, you could ask the same questions of a few thousand people who have experience of alcoholism (from the inside or out) and certainly get a few hundred variations to the answers.
I wouldn't easily say that here is one answer as definative to any of those questions, the variables are legion.

In regard to the OP, all I can say will no doubt echo what others have said, in that "rock bottom" is individual. Yes, the drinker with a problem may have to reach one, but that can vary from person realising that they ave ruined one too many blouses with red wine at dinner, to another who awoke in a gaol cell with no recolection or understanding as to why they are held on a murder charge.

That's quite some continuum, eh what?

As for the route to recovery; again there are many roads to take, but this can be strange territory.
To bring ina little philosphy, "a journey starts with but a single step".

If B needs to take that step, ans wnats to, lets hope he just goes ahead and takes it... see where it goes.

Many therapies, groups, methods and practices have been mentioned also.
None are perfect for everyone, but one might be just right for B.
Try one, if it's not feeling 'right', try another. It's no big deal.
There is no failure.

pD

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Small talk stinks.

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RE: Alcoholism - 7/4/2011 1:24:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

That would indicate that addiction is the disease not the "drug" of choice, whether it be alcohol or gambling.

Funny thing about sugar....I never really craved sugar (except for once a month, lol), and then I was diagnosed as diabetic. Now I find that I crave sugar much more than before. Psychological? Maybe. Even on diets, whatever food was "off limits," I felt like I couldn't live without it.

Actually....that's how I feel about it. The root of the disease is the addiction, not the drink. It's not unusual at all for people in recovery to simply switch addictions. Go from booze to pot....or cigarettes....or sugar...or sex...or gambling.....hell, there are few that I swear are addicted to the meetings themselves.

It's why I support the 12-step and similar programs-- stopping the drinking is just the beginning of recovery. The "real" recovery takes place when the addict/alcoholic begins to look internally at behaviors, thought patterns, etc. holds himself/herself accountable, and makes life changes through "working the steps."

I know plenty of folks who go to AA....but they do not follow the 12-step suggestion to "practice these principles in all [our] affairs." and they still "think and act" like a drunk. Minus the drinking. It took me a long, long time to understand that part.

I switched to sugar (just initially) when I was getting sober--having a lollypop or candy bar handy helped stave off the cravings for alcohol. I just had to be cognizant of not overdoing it, or eating the candy "emotionally". I often bring candy with me if I go out to social events or places where I notice I tend to get cravings for booze.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/5/2011 7:32:33 PM

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Thank you everyone for all your support and comments. I was prepared for some anxiety or issue over the 4th. That's B's favorite holiday for some reason (he's Canadian, lol). It went really well, though. Smiles and family and pizza and pool.

Things are going well. He's doing what he has to do, I'm still hopping a bit, but found one I really liked locally (only one night per week). Ideally, I'd like to find another during the day one day a week. I am feeling much better, lack of food was definitely causing stress-like symptoms (knots in stomach, nausea, shaky, rapid-fire talk). I was never one who accidentally stopped eating, I would eat more under stress, so I didn't even make the association.

Today, I am grateful. :)

(in reply to hausboy)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/6/2011 6:57:40 AM

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What about him, what's he doing?

pD

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There's no small talk with walky-talkies.
Small talk stinks.

(in reply to yummee)

RE: Alcoholism - 7/6/2011 9:03:21 AM

Posts: 111
Joined: 5/31/2009
Status: offline

Hi pD :)

He's doing OK. He goes to a meeting about every other day, but they are different kinds. Two are 12-step types and he's kinda rolling his eyes at some of it, but I think that's pretty normal for someone new to the groups. One of the meetings is not a 12-step meeting, but is more of a group therapy for aftercare patients of that facility. He's got an online group that has a chat popup meeting room. We are computer people, so I am glad for that popup and that he seems to have it up by default. That was the biggest chunk of drinking time ... sitting in front of the computer in the rec room.

He's found an in-patient facility, but I think he's trying to see how it goes without having to actually check in. He isn't talking about actually going there, just saying that's the one if he needs it. Also, he's talking a lot. He's not gotten into a regular sleeping pattern yet and is battling insomnia a bit, so we spend a lot of time talking while laying in bed at night. He also still has be be on-hand and close at quitting time. That has been his strongest urge time ... on the way home from work. He had me meet him at the shop once because he was tired, annoyed, and just didn't want to battle it that day, so I followed him home. He said that required so much less energy on his part, not something he wants every day by any means. He said he was glad the little trick worked and will use it if he gets too "tired".

He says he physically feels so much better, which makes this easier. He's laughing a lot (stand-up comics on netflix often), we are having a lot of sex, and a lot of masturbation, too. So, he's looking for his feelgood elsewhere. He had a bit of a blowup and the RC planes are done with. Now, its made-up projects on the property. He's looking for other things to do at home (was researching mmorpg's), started a car model he picked up at the hobby shop where he got the RC plane.

While not superconfident about all the choices, they aren't mine, and as long as we are moving forward, I'm not going to worry too much about his specifics.

xoxoxo

(in reply to popularDemand)

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