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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 2:59:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance
The only way to stop someone who regularly, brutally murders others, raped degrades then tortures their victims to death is not giving them three squares a day with tv the internet and a library. Im sorry but the people in prison whove broken laws shouldnt live better then I do, should regularly eat better then I do, and sure as hell shouldnt have better health care then me.

I must say, I'm always mystified by that kind of view of prisons. If they're so great inside, why don't more people deliberately try to get into them? Are you saying that you, personally, would be happy to live in prison?

Actually, there recently was a man who robbed a bank for ONE DOLLAR, so he would be arrested and receive medical care. I think PAhunk posted it a month or so back. So people DO deliberately try to get into them. Healthcare in this country is a mess.

PS. SO glad the abs are back and the bug is gone.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 3:34:26 PM

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From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
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The woman eating herself to death...I don't give a second thought to.
She's a grown woman.

The guy with the kid cut up in his freezer....He can die. Tomorrow isn't soon enough.
If that was my daughter. He'd be dead. And I'd be sitting "vacationing" on an island in the Bahamas when it happened.
It's good to be Italian.

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 3:34:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Example, about 2 years ago some idiot hurt my girlie dog, repeatedly, we tried to get away from him, I was close to smashing his face in, warned him several times to stop, he almost tore her hindleg out of the socket and she nipped him lightly, he went to the police and reported her as a dangerous dog, police spoke to all the witnesses, all said the guy had hurt the dog, was warned repeatedly, they checked the dog, found her very friendly and placid, told him to present some witnesses, he had none plus he was drunk when it happened, so they told him to sod off. He had the good grace to call the female officer who handled the case a stupid c*nt, so they got him for wasting police time and insulting a police officer. He was after compensation but to put a compensation claim in, you have to report a bite to the police first, since they decided that there was no case as he was just a stupid idiot, chances for a compensation claim went out of the window. I dread to think what it would have been like in the US...

What a waste of dread, LC! The exact same situation, in the US, would have had the same result (almost). The police would have given you the opportunity to signa complaint against the man for his "assault" on your dogs.

In the US, you don't necessarily have to put in a police report first, but it certainly will help your claim. In your situation, the police responded directly to the site of the incident and were able to talk to not just you and the guy, but witnesses as well. Could an idiot like that here file a claim for "personal injuy" regardless of what the police said? Sure, he would be directed to small claims court, because there are limits to what he can sue for. Very few attorneys are going to take his case, since their share of any "award" wouldn't be worth their time, and he would need to include the police report in his filing.

Yes, it would piss you off, and lose you some time, but your response asking for dismissal based on the plaintiff's own police report that states he incited the behavior of the dog would most likely get the dismissal. What would that take you? An hour or two of your time?

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 3:55:01 PM

HannahLynHeather

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quote:

The Supreme Court agrees with me

what the fuck? did you really just do that? please tell me you didn't just refer to the supreme court of the united states as an authority on good and evil? i am amazed and astounded by the incomprehensible depth and breadth of your ignorance. clearly nothing's emiting from that black hole of a neocortex of yours
.
your argument is based on such a flawed premise that you're just farting in the wind. the blood of some 1260 people is on your head. you must be utterly conscienceless if you're able to sleep at night.

you know, right now i wish i was a christain, so i could take comfort in believing that you and the other death penalty supporters would be going to hell to suffer the torment they so richly deserve for all eternity, for sure morning comes, if there is were a hell, you'd be going there.

now that i think about it; there's a term for people like you.
you, my dear woman, are a sociopathic serial killer. even jesus wouldn't save you if he could.

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 3:55:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Don't you think that Manson as a sad old man being locked up most of his life in a tiny prison cell is much more of detergent than if he would have died young, relatively good looking and charismatic?

Do you realize LC, that one of the concerns at each parole hearing that comes up for Manson is the concern over the number of followers he still has as an "sad old man?" Manson is never a good example to use as a deterent.

quote:

Same thing with all the celebs that died young, who would drool over Marylin Monroe and James Dean if they would have aged? Same principle, only the idea of spending your life in prison is more scary for most people than a quick death.

Most career criminals (like Manson) not only belong in prison, most will readily admit they can not function in the "free world." With all the "rights" afforded them in prison, there is no need. They are free to develop relationships with "like minded" other criminal people. They are fed, educated, have modern conveniences such as television and exercise equipment (and the weight sets never cease to boggle my mind around all these violent people).

quote:

For the ones who claim what a nice life they have in prison, I can only imagine how horrible their own lives must be if they think it's great to be locked up in a small cell, knowing that those 4 narrow walls, zero privacy, almost no human interaction and never ever being able to just go anywhere, not even for a stroll down the shop to buy papers, I mean if they think it's so great, they can always try to rob a bank and just end in prison for a year or two, and then extend if they think it is really that great.

The majority of prisoners have contact with other inmates, they go outdoors when the weather is permitting. Only thing they can't do is leave.

By comparison, because of service the UK has that are not available in the US, the poor can be without shelter, never knowing if they will eat that day, should they get sick or have a chronic illness, they have no health care. Sure they can walk all over the country at their leisure, but that is just one thing they have that inmates don't, where the inmates have all these other things. Sure you can say the homeless person clean up, get a job, a place, etc., but I know you know it isn't that easy when one doesn't have family or a few close friends to help. Those inmates didn't work to get that library, they didn't earn the money for those weights or that television set. It was given to them as a matter of "human rights." It was fought for by groups who believe that if we treat criminals with the dignitiy they lacked in the life, it will result in change. Has been going on for years and hasn't done a damn thing toward crime rates, but the prisons look great.

quote:

As for the costs, well, execution is cheap then? The legal costs and executing the execution is actually a lot more expensive than keeping somebody behind bars.

There's a reason why almost every civilized society doesn't have the capital punishment anymore, for those who want to go back to the dark ages, well, there's always China and a couple of Muslim countries, nobody stopping them from living there and to enjoy lack of human rights and all that.

The death penalty argument is like the "Does God exist?" philosophical argument. Nearly zero chance of either side change their mind. It would be nice though, and this isn't directed at you LC, but in general, it would be nice if people could learn to accept the other's position and stop calling the other various names. Doesn't make any point and gets no where.

For the record, I believe in the death penalty. I do believe that there are persons on this earth who are so heinous as to have used up all their chances to be part of any society. I don't believe in hanging, or the electric chair or the gas chamber, but in lethal injection. For the record, if assisted suicide became legal, it is a form of lethal injection. I don't believe it is burdensomely painful and gets the job done. I also admit that there are some, who part of my mind says it would be wonderful to watch them struggle in the gas chamber. That's the eye for an eye part, and she doesn't get to voice an opinion, just have thoughts, lol.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 4:26:40 PM

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Jeez Hannah, that was productive. To me this is a legal issue, that I was willing to discuss with you like intelligent adults, not an issue of what you personally consider good or evil. And yes, in terms of legal issues in this country, I think the Supreme Court has an edge over your opinion. But, obviously trying to have a discussion with you on this topic is not fruitful, since you seem to believe if I don't agree with your opinion, I must be wrong. So I am done. Talking to you is like trying to talk to those anti-choice or anti gay marriage zealots, they always end up engaging in hyperbole and telling me that Jesus is going to judge me (although they usually don't say "fuck" ). Whatever, I usually tell them I will take my chances on that, and I am going to say the same thing to you.
For the less emotional participants in this debate, I do have one more thought about the death penalty. While I do have qualms about the death penalty, I don't think you can discount the danger that inmates who have been sentenced to life in prison and who are basically violent people pose to other inmates and prison guards. I have talked to a few correction officers, and they all agree that those guys are scary, because they have absolutely nothing to lose. Is the death penalty really more cruel and unusual than lifetime solitary confinement, which is really the only way to keep others safe? Eliminating the death penalty will only make prisons more unsafe. That may not be the most important consideration, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered.
While I don't buy into the concept of USA exceptionalism, and I never have, I do feel that the justice system, of all the branches of government, is probably the best thing this country has to offer, for all its flaws.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 4:53:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
And yes, in terms of legal issues in this country, I think the Supreme Court has an edge over your opinion.

No, it doesn't. The Supreme Court is the servant of the people, not its master. It isn't the moral authority, it's just the group hired by the people, the voters, to do a job for them, *after* those people have come to their moral conclusion.

Democracy means rule by the people. If people are killed by the government of a democracy for the crimes they've committed, it really is down to the people in that democracy. You are responsible for their deaths.

Just to be clear on that: those people are killed in your name. If you, personally, feel it to be morally repugnant to put a noose around a man's neck, then you shouldn't be employing someone else to do it, either. That would be immoral.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 7/18/2011 5:14:54 PM >

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 5:15:10 PM

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Well Peon, where to start. You do know that the Supremes are not hired by voters, right?
Second, most states have found hanging to be cruel and unusual, so it is rarely done anymore.
Third, back to my Wesley Alan Dodd example. His blood is on my hands? I can live with that.
I will say, I forwarded Hannah's email to the attorney I referred to earlier, who actually has made a career of defending defendants against the death penalty. In other words, he is actually proactive about doing something to stop something he finds repugnant. I respect that, even if I don't necessarily agree with him. Anyway, he thought it was hilarious also.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 5:18:08 PM

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I am not sure who the Supreme Court serves, but I doubt it's the American public.

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 5:18:14 PM

SpiritedRadiance

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance
The only way to stop someone who regularly, brutally murders others, raped degrades then tortures their victims to death is not giving them three squares a day with tv the internet and a library. Im sorry but the people in prison whove broken laws shouldnt live better then I do, should regularly eat better then I do, and sure as hell shouldnt have better health care then me.

I must say, I'm always mystified by that kind of view of prisons. If they're so great inside, why don't more people deliberately try to get into them? Are you saying that you, personally, would be happy to live in prison?

If you would read the news in the states you would know on average about 15 to 50 people deliberately commit a crime to go to jail to receive the free health care benefits, we recently in Maryland had a man who was diagnosed with cancer who did just this.

What many dont seem to understand who are in other countries....who have universal health care........ AMERICA doesnt..... and while Yes you are stuck in a tiny cell, you arent required to do ANYTHING to support yourself any longer, you get free tv, internet time, pleasure time to read, you get decent food multiple times a day. You get some of the best health care america can provide. And if the jails doctors can fix you you go to a hospital to get fixed, free of charge.

While those who have worked all of their lives are covered in medical debt because they have a heart condition or something else.

Why in america is the only way to be 100 percent sure youll have your medical expenses covered is to go to jail, or be so poverishly dirt poor with multiple children.

And if i contracted a serious illness, that would cost me thousands upon thousands to treat? Id prefer to sit several years in a jail cell and have it treated for free instead of the debt. Id rather live a few years in a tiny cell and live an additional 50 on top of it, then die at 23 because i couldnt afford health care.

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 5:29:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Well Peon, where to start. You do know that the Supremes are not hired by voters, right?

They are. They're public servants. If they're not hired by the people, then you don't live in a democracy.

If you could, personally, kill Wesley Alan Dodd, after going through the trial, hearing everything about him, about his life . . . then - fine. If not, then . . . well, no, you're immoral.

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 5:32:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

Sorry, what I didn't see there, SR, was an answer to my question. Would you, personally, be happy to live your life in prison? If not, why not? And, if you wouldn't like to live in prison, yourself, what makes you think those who do live in prison are any different from you?

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 5:32:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Well Peon, where to start. You do know that the Supremes are not hired by voters, right?

They are. They're public servants. If they're not hired by the people, then you don't live in a democracy.

Actually, we are a Republic, not a democracy.

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 5:37:01 PM

SpiritedRadiance

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

Sorry, what I didn't see there, SR, was an answer to my question. Would you, personally, be happy to live your life in prison? If not, why not? And, if you wouldn't like to live in prison, yourself, what makes you think those who do live in prison are any different from you?

If i had commited a crime to involve living in prision Yes Id be happy to live there.... if i needed the care of prision to survive, yes id be happy to be there....

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 5:43:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

Actually, we are a Republic, not a democracy.

I was always told the USA is both . . . .

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 5:45:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

If i had commited a crime to involve living in prision Yes Id be happy to live there.... if i needed the care of prision to survive, yes id be happy to be there....

But you've said it's a good life even by the standards of those who haven't committed crimes. So, if offered, does this mean you'd be happy to go, tomorrow morning, to live in prison?

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 5:47:39 PM

SpiritedRadiance

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As i said if i commited the crimes Yes. or if i needed use of the system yes.

If i found myself suddenly homeless tomorrow... Yes id go to jail, but as it is im not...

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RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 5:50:23 PM

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Hannah, you can stamp your feet and try and make the LAWS of this country and the states moot, but wake up call, they aren't. ONE of the consequences people KNOW are possible by LAW, is that there are certain crimes that could very well result in your death by execution by the State in which you were convicted of your crime by a jury OF YOUR PEERS.

I am not sure what you think the process is but it's not a secret, that people don't know about. It's a KNOWN consequence in many states. Ignorance of the consequences don't change the fact that until the states that have this consequence no longer have it, it is a possibility IF a person decides to kill a person.

You comment about you aren't allowed to kill people is absolutely correct -- you have NO AUTHORITY to kill someone and if you do you will be placed before your peers if you choose to be judged upon that action. You could actually become a person who does have the authority to kill in many different aspects throughout the US simply by entering a career that may put you in a position wherein you may actually be authorized to kill someone.

Just because you don't LIKE the laws, doesn't make them moot in our society. You can not LIKE the death penalty but that doesn't change the fact that it is a sentence by law that can be pronounced upon a person convicted of the crime which could get them the death penalty.

What's funny is whenever i have talked to a death penalty inmate or have watched them speak with people, it makes me sad that one day the person will die because of their actions against another human being. It's never right that a person must die because of their actions but in the end, people judge whether or not people should live or die. The fact you are telling victim's families and such to kill the person themselves doesn't make sense. THE FAMILY and the Judge and the prosecutors nor the warden nor the guards nor the person pushing the buttons don't convict the person. They are not the ones who sentence the person. The conviction and subsequent sentence is based on laws of our country -- it would be illegal for ANY of those people to kill the person convicted of the crime -- the ones who are authorized to kill the person (i.e., authorized to ""push the button) convicted of the crime are the ONLY ones who are by law allowed to kill.

You may not get this but in the end, the death penalty is not inhumane, its simply a consequence of a person's actions. There is a real simple way for people to AVOID the death penalty --- do you have a clue what that is -- or doesn't that matter in your world?

angel

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(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 5:53:31 PM

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I don't share SR's sunny view of prisons, myself. For one thing, the level of sexual assaults in the prison system in this country is a disgrace. Now allowing that to continue IS cruel and unusual. I do agree with SR that there are occasions where people commit relatively minor crimes, in order to get a warm bed or health care. However, these are generally minor crimes, where the sentence is less than a year. So, they end up in county lock up, which is, in general, a far less dangerous place than either state or federal prisons.
Lady Hibiscus, I think if any area of government is better situated to serve the American Public, it is the Supremes. Why? Because they are appointed for life. In other words, they don't have to worry about the next election. Do I agree with all their decisions? No. Do I think they bring biases into the picture? Yes. But far less than any other branch of government. That is why they feel free to make decisions that are pretty controversial and piss people off. They know they don't have to have their hands out for campaign funds, they have a pretty good gig for life, and they are subjected to relatively high scrutiny, so they have to be somewhat circumspect.
Peon. Let's say I accept that being appointed is the same as being hired by the public. I don't, but let's pretend I do. Supremes can't be fired by the public. That completely doesn't jive with any definition of "servant" that I ever heard. Usually, you can kick a "servant" to the curb, either by firing him, or, in the case of public servants, impeaching, having them fired, or just not reelecting them. There is no one harder to get rid of than a federal judge, let alone a Supreme. Hence, my disagreement with your statement that they are "servants". Whether that means this country is not a democracy, I really don't care one way or the other.
On Dodd, absolutely, unconditionally, and with a smile on my face would I have personally executed that mother fucker. Then, I would have burnt his house down. Does that make me moral or immoral?

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Aileen1968)

RE: Mental Health - 7/18/2011 5:55:26 PM

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From: The Great Northwest, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

Actually, we are a Republic, not a democracy.

I was always told the USA is both . . . .

The only people who say the USA is a democracy are the ones who don't know what that means. I am not always proud of my fellow citizens, some of them are insufferably ignorant.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

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