RE: Did anyone else notice ..

Post #: 81

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 7:25:37 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes
Just like the bazillion threads about "who is into X kink" and "I've been on the site a whole week and haven't found a Domme to play with" - threads like yours get old and tiresome.

that was my take on it, just another whiney post...

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Post #: 82

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 7:55:33 AM

CrazyCats

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Just for my two cents about the OP as I only read a page and a half of the exchange that followed...

Yep. I've noticed a fair number (no where near all) of Domme pictures that I instictively and instantly labeled "sub" when I saw them. I was honestly more than a little surprised at the style similarities. To be fair, I don't ususally skim through the Domme profiles, so the observations are based on a pretty limited sample size. I ususally leave the filter in place when I actually searched this and other D/s dating sites. Now I know why I should leave those filters on... I would likely email one of those Domme's with a picture I saw as submissive. That wouldn't be a recipe for disaster, now would it?

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Post #: 83

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 8:03:44 AM

BonesFromAsh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrazyCats
I would likely email one of those Domme's with a picture I saw as submissive.

Interesting...and please understand I'm not picking on you, just curious about your choice of words.

What, exactly makes for a "submissive" image enough to call into question which side of the whip she's on. I had a photo up that was shot from a downward angle that gave the appearance of my head bowed (I was actually at my cat, fwiw). I can't tell you the amout of d-type men told me I was a "lovely sub".

The photo's gone because I like to rotate pics often, but the question remains.

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Post #: 84

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 8:30:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

No, I haven't noticed this. I'm inclined to agree with LadyPact that you aren't really meeting the right kind of men.

LADY A!!!!!

I have missed those legs.

I still have them too!! :-p
And I missed that tattoo ;-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWriter

It was about humorously expressing an observation that, regardless of whether they claim to be dominant or submissive, almost all the men on this site ask for exactly the same things out of a woman, when it comes to how to dress, and, what counts as either serving or being served. Which is easily observable by reading their emails, or, their profiles.

Perhaps many of us missed the humour in the initial post. There was unfortunately no indication that you were joking around.

You observation is perhaps accurate for those who limit themselves to the online realm. The thing you should perhaps consider is that many of us have experiences offline that are nothing like this, and that when we encounter online, we don't even give it a second thought.

The thing is, there is a modicum of truth to your initial post, in that many men often have unrealistic expectations of women. I know we've had more than on thread on this topic. But realize that you are dealing with, for the most part, a group of women who, because of the respect they've earned, aren't being treated that way. So when we see your list, we can't really relate to it.

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Post #: 85

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 8:37:26 AM

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quote:

I would likely email one of those Domme's with a picture I saw as submissive. That wouldn't be a recipe for disaster, now would it?

Two things:

1) Messaging a woman after only looking at her picture? Are you one of those guys that emails after seeing a picture and doesn't read the profile? ;-)

2) I'll agree with you that the profile picture we select should be chosen very carefully as they are the first impression we have. I can tell you with absolute certainty that my picture doesn't give even the slightest impression of submission. That's a pretty accurate reflection of my personality as well.

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Post #: 86

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 10:24:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Where do you feel it from, LnT? Do you feel it in your personal, real life interactions?

Munch, not so often. Online, all the dreary fuckin' time. It's a lot less common in face to face interactions, but it does happen. I have some pretty funny stories from many years of going to BDSM events, though mostly they were just annoying at the time.

quote:

When was the last munch that you attended that somebody bent over to you and paraded his asshole?

Couple of months ago at a local femdom party. *chuckle* That wouldn't have gone over real well at Cracker Barrel. He managed to not be obnoxious about it, and it was a play party where nudity was perfectly acceptable, so no harm no foul. That's not actually the kind of thing that makes me feel that someone is pressing a weight of expectation, demands, entitlement or judgment on me or trying to fit me into a Procrustean mold of what he thinks a femdom should be. Someone asking for sex or play in an appropriate environment is really not a problem for me, unless it's done in a way that dehumanizes or objectifies me, or violates a boundary that has been clearly communicated either by me or by the party organizers. If I consent to come to a play party, then I consent to see nudity, so showing it to me doesn't feel like a boundary violation. Now if someone violates my personal space with his private parts as opposed to showing them from a reasonable distance, I'd have a problem. Otherwise, not.

For me, it's boundary violation and being socially ignored while sexually pursued that is an issue, not male sexuality or male nudity per se. When guys send me dick photos on a "friends only, no explicit solicitations please" social profile, that does feel like a boundary violation. They are ignoring my wishes and my personal boundaries, essentially saying that they do not care about me as a person or about what I say I want, but they want to use me for their sexual gratification. That's definitely one of the things that can push my buttons. I do think one of the underlying causes of this behavior is the stereotypical porn culture of woman as packaged object for the entitled male gaze.

At a public restaurant Munch where no one sane is going to take their clothes off, the people who *have* pushed those buttons for me have done so by making remarks about how dominant women are "supposed" to act or dress (including the lesbians, for fuck's sake) that are clearly all about entitled male gaze. They didn't get that dominant women in the scene, especially the lesbians, are not there to entertain men or be sexy for them. And THAT pushed those buttons for me a hell of a lot more than the guy who just wanted to bend over for us at a play party.

quote:

Yes, that pro shingle changes your perspective. Perhaps, had you not, you might see things differently.

I'm not so sure it's a hard and fast line. If I had to graph the amount of time I've spent on professional interactions as opposed to personal and social interactions that are BDSM related, it would seriously be something like 5% vs 95%. Making myself available as a professional has certainly exposed me to men who are very much fetish bottoms seeking service tops for very narrowly defined interactions, but I've never had an issue with anything about service topping except the requirements that I dress and appear a certain way. That's the only part I dislike and resent, and it's what caused me to stop doing pro sessions for many years before deciding to enter the field again in a very limited and narrow-focus capacity (fitness training only, no generic pro sessions). Waving the pro banner works for me. Marketing myself as one, in the usual sense, less so.

The straightforward client-pro service topping relationship does work well for me. It is fair and honest, you pay X and you get X. Both people get to set their boundaries and communicate them clearly up front. One of my personal boundaries is that I don't play dress-up and I don't ever want to feel like an object for male gaze. As the dominant, I am the looker, not the lookee. That doesn't work well for marketing if you do generic pro sessions, which is why I don't.

I am absolutely not disrespecting women who do enjoy displaying themselves sexually, I am just setting my own personal boundaries and defining what is and isn't my kink. Being looked at and feeling sexually objectified is not my kink. Looking at the male body and sexually objectifying it is my kink. I don't think anyone should feel required or expected to do kinks that just aren't theirs, whichever way around you happen to be wired. I have no problem with women whose kink it is enjoying their kink their way. I do have a major problem with the arrogant, entitled expectation that all women have to do it this way.

If I had never done a pro session in my life, I seriously doubt my annoyance level over entitled male gaze would be any different. The really cool thing is that since I nixed my friends-only social profile here and returned only with a professional profile, I get *less* of the stuff that annoys me in my mailbox. I care less about actually getting clients (my vanilla work keeps me pretty busy) than about how well the filter of a professional profile works for me. As a no-nonsense pro, I can say, "If you want these things, you must give me a fair exchange for them, this is what they cost. No pay, no put up with." And oddly enough, that filter works a lot better than trying to explain that yes, I am looking to enjoy those things with a personal partner, I just don't want YOU as a personal partner. If they do pay, then we have a fair and honest exchange of my time and energy for their money. If they do not want to pay, they go away and I get neither their money nor their annoyance. This is also totally cool with me, because reducing the annoyance and setting my boundaries of fair exchange was partly the point of going pro in the first place. It has other upsides, but that's definitely a big one for me.

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Post #: 87

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 1:03:20 PM

LadyPact

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LnT, the above is kind of long, so I'm not going to address all of it. I'm just going to say that your meatlife experiences are not the same as Mine. I have never had anybody present themselves ass first at munches, clubs, or major events. The femdom events that I've attended have been the type that 1) it's damn hard for males to get on the guest list and 2) an unsolicited ass in a woman's face would have guaranteed that they wouldn't be at the next one. They aren't what I call the 'open cattle call' type, where any male who pays the fee at the door is able to attend. It's personal submissives of the femdoms attending first, vetted members (subs) of the group in the area second, people with references from surrounding groups third. Might be exactly why it hasn't happened to Me.

As to the rest, I'm not going to sit here and say that fetish bottoms aren't present at public clubs. However, I'm pretty old school and I tend to associate more with long term folks in the scene. That includes the Dominant men who will still step up and tell somebody it's in their best interest to be courteous and mind their manners for the women in attendance.

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Post #: 88

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 1:11:55 PM

LadyHibiscus

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LP, you really have struck it lucky. That's all I m saying .

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Post #: 89

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 1:43:44 PM

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I don't really chalk down LadyPact's experience to luck. I think it has more to do with the choices she has made. It also very likely has something to do with the fact that she has no tolerance for anything but respect.

Remember, we teach people how to treat us.

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Post #: 90

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 3:26:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I don't really chalk down LadyPact's experience to luck. I think it has more to do with the choices she has made. It also very likely has something to do with the fact that she has no tolerance for anything but respect.

Or geographical area, though the number of clueless or mannerless new attendees at any given event is also going to depend on that group's pre-screening policy.

I've been to a lot of really large BDSM events that don't pre-screen at all, as well as smaller groups that do. Anyone with the money and a legal ID can come in. Really offensive people can be thrown out, but folks who stop just short of that line can continue to annoy women for a long time. And I have absolutely no idea how any better management could be implemented for an event the size of Frolicon or DomCon or BR or SELF or Bash. You can make everyone sign waivers and acknowledge that they've read the rules, but you can not effectively pre-screen when the reg line is around the block and the attendees fill up more than one major hotel. So you're invariably going to get some percentage of incidents.

Keep in mind that I rarely dress up much for social events, and when I do, it's in the direction of weird, geeky or genderbent towards masculine rather than classically sexy or femme. I should not be a particularly attractive target for the average random hetboy. But I still occasionally manage to get my buttons pushed at real-time events, specifically the buttons described in the OP with regards to entitled male gaze. If your statistics haven't come up yet, then either you are very lucky, you are only attending events that intensively pre-screen, or you are doing something different that I'd like to learn.

< Message edited by LadyNTrainer -- 7/31/2011 3:27:00 PM >

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Post #: 91

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 3:37:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I have never had anybody present themselves ass first at munches, clubs, or major events.

It does happen. Honestly, I don't take offense to it. If I did not consent to see nudity, I could stay home from play parties. But I'm fine with it, and if I like the looks of the ass in question, I'll even participate. I don't consider it rude for someone to hop on the spanking bench and announce that their ass is free to all takers, as long as they are prepared to move on and leave the play station to other people if no one takes them up on it in the next few minutes. And don't forget the bleach wipes. But yes, I've seen that happen, and it didn't create a problem in a play party environment. Obviously it would be a problem at a Munch, no matter how interesting those rocking chairs outside Cracker Barrel may look. LOL

quote:

The femdom events that I've attended have been the type that 1) it's damn hard for males to get on the guest list and 2) an unsolicited ass in a woman's face would have guaranteed that they wouldn't be at the next one. They aren't what I call the 'open cattle call' type, where any male who pays the fee at the door is able to attend. It's personal submissives of the femdoms attending first, vetted members (subs) of the group in the area second, people with references from surrounding groups third. Might be exactly why it hasn't happened to Me.

Our local group does a mandatory orientation session for new members, so I wouldn't call it an open cattle call in the same way that the really big events are. And I've been pretty comfortable there. But the occasional clueless fellow does slip by.

quote:

As to the rest, I'm not going to sit here and say that fetish bottoms aren't present at public clubs. However, I'm pretty old school and I tend to associate more with long term folks in the scene. That includes the Dominant men who will still step up and tell somebody it's in their best interest to be courteous and mind their manners for the women in attendance.

I'll chitchat with anyone at an event, pretty much, as long as the topic is geeky or science-y and they know what they're talking about. At a Munch, you don't always get to pick who ends up sitting across from you, so I've been offended more than once by remarks of the nature described in the OP.

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Post #: 92

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 3:56:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I don't really chalk down LadyPact's experience to luck. I think it has more to do with the choices she has made. It also very likely has something to do with the fact that she has no tolerance for anything but respect.

Or geographical area, though the number of clueless or mannerless new attendees at any given event is also going to depend on that group's pre-screening policy

Ok. But I wasn't limiting this only to the realm of BDSM. I was saying in general. I don't go to munches or BDSM events, so I can't comment on them.

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Post #: 93

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 4:55:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Ok. But I wasn't limiting this only to the realm of BDSM. I was saying in general. I don't go to munches or BDSM events, so I can't comment on them.

Oh, outside the community, it can be even worse. I fight in the SCA, and my armor is not in the least bit sexy. It's fuckin' armor. It isn't two bottle caps tied together with a glittery string. But guess how female fighters are always depicted? People don't really stop to think about what that actually means, and that's a big part of the problem.

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Post #: 94

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 7/31/2011 5:13:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Ok. But I wasn't limiting this only to the realm of BDSM. I was saying in general. I don't go to munches or BDSM events, so I can't comment on them.

Oh, outside the community, it can be even worse. I fight in the SCA, and my armor is not in the least bit sexy. It's fuckin' armor. It isn't two bottle caps tied together with a glittery string. But guess how female fighters are always depicted? People don't really stop to think about what that actually means, and that's a big part of the problem.

I wasn't saying there wasn't sexism. What I was saying is that we treat people how to teach us. My work environment is about 95% male. I can assure you that I'm respected for my work ethic, personality and competency. I've commanded their respect.

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Post #: 95

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 8/1/2011 12:03:46 AM

peppermint

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okay..you want a yes or no answer

NO

I have never noticed that I am required to wear leather which is good because I own nothing leather except for my slip on Sketcher fuzzy lined shoes. By the way, the shoes or not pointy toed nor has anyone, Dom or sub ever mentioned that I need to get some pointy toed shoes.

I don't wear any lipstick not am I required to do so. Never noticed Dommes or subs wearing much makeup as it would get messy while sweating.

Is that enough yet?

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Post #: 96

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 8/1/2011 4:44:54 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

Remember, we teach people how to treat us.

I had a friend who was always telling me how horribly people treated her, and to my horror, I soon found myself behaving similarly badly (bad is relative - Kshama bad not Kali bad). Even though she had many good points, the relationship felt toxic, and I ended it (badly.)

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Post #: 97

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 8/1/2011 5:20:38 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I wasn't saying there wasn't sexism. What I was saying is that we treat people how to teach us. My work environment is about 95% male. I can assure you that I'm respected for my work ethic, personality and competency. I've commanded their respect.

I work a lot with guys, but I found that being respected for the same things means often you have to work harder if you're female. There have been times where I really wanted to throttle somebody who thought they can get away with rubbish or pull the wool over my eyes and I wouldn't notice on account of being female. And of course you will always have rumors if you're halfway attractive, but those rumors don't always just come from guys.

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Post #: 98

RE: Did anyone else notice .. - 8/1/2011 6:10:49 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I don't really chalk down LadyPact's experience to luck. I think it has more to do with the choices she has made. It also very likely has something to do with the fact that she has no tolerance for anything but respect.

I happen to think so. Thank you for saving Me the keystrokes. Nice to see you back.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
Or geographical area, though the number of clueless or mannerless new attendees at any given event is also going to depend on that group's pre-screening policy.

It's really hard for Me to buy the geographical area bit unless it's an area that is just a flipping mess. (I've got Hib in mind for her location, but I'll let her speak for herself.) Since I've became active in the kink community, I've moved three times and lived in four different states. That doesn't even count the other states where I've attended events that were outside of My home state. This most recent move and the one before it (CA) people already knew Me or I've run into a lot of people that we have friends in common.

quote:

I've been to a lot of really large BDSM events that don't pre-screen at all, as well as smaller groups that do. Anyone with the money and a legal ID can come in. Really offensive people can be thrown out, but folks who stop just short of that line can continue to annoy women for a long time. And I have absolutely no idea how any better management could be implemented for an event the size of Frolicon or DomCon or BR or SELF or Bash. You can make everyone sign waivers and acknowledge that they've read the rules, but you can not effectively pre-screen when the reg line is around the block and the attendees fill up more than one major hotel. So you're invariably going to get some percentage of incidents.

I've been to half of those that you mentioned. Some, several years in a row. A friend of Mine has worked DM/security for DomCon Atlanta. Since I never saw any 'incidents' I could probably run it by him to find out if anybody had to be bounced out of the dungeon.

quote:

Keep in mind that I rarely dress up much for social events, and when I do, it's in the direction of weird, geeky or genderbent towards masculine rather than classically sexy or femme. I should not be a particularly attractive target for the average random hetboy. But I still occasionally manage to get my buttons pushed at real-time events, specifically the buttons described in the OP with regards to entitled male gaze. If your statistics haven't come up yet, then either you are very lucky, you are only attending events that intensively pre-screen, or you are doing something different that I'd like to learn.

SELF, DomCon Atl, Thunder in the Mountains, regular at 1763 when I lived in that state, Northern Exposure, Folsom, Edges in San Jose (before they closed the location), more that I'm probably forgetting, and once to a co-op play site in your state. Everything from 'fill out the form and pay the entry fee' to groups or specific events that had an extensive vetting process and if you didn't know somebody, you wouldn't know it existed. I'd say I've run the scale.

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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