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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 3:52:47 AM

hardcybermaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

the riots are a fact. as peon said, and even creepy admitted, there is a politico-economic basis for the anger behind the unrest.
it is the aim of some people to make use of the unrest to grab themselves some swag. unfortunate, but unavoidable, there will always be such people.

it is the aim of some other people to try harness this anger and use it more productively. those are the people i am working with.

like i said, you use the tools you're given, these riots, looters and all, are the tool we've been given. so we're going to try make use of them. you don't like it? no shit, you're not supposed to.

yea, and my friends are trying to direct them more appropriately, but an angry mob is a difficult thing to control once the riot begins

this makes me laugh, hlh believing that anyone on the streets burning and looting is being helped or directed by her and her loony mates.
I have a sneaking feeling that they aren't listening but I guess everyone needs to feel important sometimes

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 4:08:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Anarchism is a loose grouping of political philosophies that have in common the desire to do away with coercive forms of government. The idea of having your own property, is in fact very much in line with some branches of anarchist thought, many forms of anarchism are simply more libertarian libertarians.

Throughout history there were attempts at anarchy, even peaceful attempts, they all failed, I'd be surprised if somebody would come up with a new way of living without a government that would work, the general principle of anarchy seems to be to presume that people will do the right thing without a government (I dimly remember social studies and that anarchy means "without ruler"), communism in it's true and theoretic form presumes the same, though that also didn't work out at all (look at the USSR and China), you could push it and say that communists and anarchists are both pushing for a classless utopia, you could push it even more and say Thomas Moore's idea of Utopia is a peaceful anarchy (if we ignore the flaw that atheism is a crime there, because apparently if you don't believe in a deity you don't believe in a reward for good behaviour and therefore you must be a bad person that deserves exile or slavery - and the idea of the government free place where everybody does the right thing goes down the drain).

The idea of peaceful anarchism is seductive, but personally I doubt it's practicality and the random violence in some cities would possibly not have happened in a different political or economic climate, there isn't much that is actually made or manufactured in Britain (I'm sure people want to give Maggie a big thanks for that) so there isn't much of an industry here, most of the famous British car brands are now owned by other countries, the economy is down, while I really don't like Cameron, cuts had to be made, if there is no money there is no money and you had a bit of a welfare trap where people earned not a lot less being unemployed than if they would have taken shitty jobs - can't really blame them for taking what was available. Cuts would have been made and taxes raised no matter who got into power, it was unavoidable.
A bad economy is always a bit of a powder keg, though the looting and burning is random violence by idiots, or as Creepy said "complete asshattery"

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 4:26:28 AM

Arpig

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quote:

this makes me laugh, hlh believing that anyone on the streets burning and looting is being helped or directed by her and her loony mates.
I have a sneaking feeling that they aren't listening but I guess everyone needs to feel important sometimes

So you reject the idea that there are political activists/extremists involved who are trying to manipulate these events to their advantage? What is the basis of this stance?

I accept these activists as fact, not on her words, but because I have read news coverage where admitted anarchists were interviewed openly assisting in the rioting.

quote:

"This is the uprising of the working class. We're redistributing the wealth," said Bryn Phillips, a 28-year-old self-described anarchist, as young people emerged from the store with chocolate bars and ice cream cones.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/08/09/uk-police-arrest-over-200-as-london-riots-continue/#ixzz1UWtKR8Rk

Hmmmmm...it seems that there are indeed anarchists involved and that they do indeed see this as a political action. I guess all the protestations of this being nothing but hooligans and chavs is a little bit misguided.

Oh and LadyC, you might find this little section from that same article interesting:

quote:

Some looters were young women with manicured nails and customized BlackBerry smart phones. Others wore dreadlocks and stained shirts or appeared to be homeless.

Don't get me wrong, I don't support the rioters, but denying that there is a genuine socio-economic basis for the unrest is foolish, as is denying the possibility of there being political groups attempting to capitalize on them.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 4:38:18 AM

hardcybermaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

this makes me laugh, hlh believing that anyone on the streets burning and looting is being helped or directed by her and her loony mates.
I have a sneaking feeling that they aren't listening but I guess everyone needs to feel important sometimes
So you reject the idea that there are political activists/extremists involved who are trying to manipulate these events to their advantage? What is the basis of this stance?

I accept these activists as fact, not on her words, but because I have read news coverage where admitted anarchists were interviewed openly assisting in the rioting.

quote:

"This is the uprising of the working class. We're redistributing the wealth," said Bryn Phillips, a 28-year-old self-described anarchist, as young people emerged from the store with chocolate bars and ice cream cones.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/08/09/uk-police-arrest-over-200-as-london-riots-continue/#ixzz1UWtKR8Rk

Hmmmmm...it seems that there are indeed anarchists involved and that they do indeed see this as a political action. I guess all the protestations of this being nothing but hooligans and chavs is a little bit misguided.

Oh and LadyC, you might find this little section from that same article interesting:

quote:

Some looters were young women with manicured nails and customized BlackBerry smart phones. Others wore dreadlocks and stained shirts or appeared to be homeless.

Don't get me wrong, I don't support the rioters, but denying that there is a genuine socio-economic basis for the unrest is foolish, as is denying the possibility of there being political groups attempting to capitalize on them.

I don't doubt that anarchists are on the streets helping the riots continue, I do doubt hlh's involvement from behind her laptop.
As for self described anarchist Bryn, he's got a way to go redistributing the wealth via ice creams and chocolate bars. I mean come on,are you serious? He's a shoplifter

(in reply to Arpig)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 4:38:38 AM

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They are redistributing the wealth with chocolate bars and ice cream cones? I could self-describe as anything really, deity or ruler of the universe, wouldn't really make me one...

As for denying that there is a genuine socio-economic basis for the unrests, I haven't, see my post above yours, I said the economic climate has a lot to do with it, a bad economy is always a powder keg, but cuts would have been made no matter who's in power.

Pardon my skepticism when you use FoxNews as a source, gosh, you know when there are store looted and people think they can in and grab something for free, would I think the homeless wouldn't take the chance and be better than others? I never said that, I said it doesn't seem to originate from them, they might run with the pack and get something, sure (and they are the ones I blame a lot less than some woman who's got money to spend on a manicure, for the homeless this is possibly survival, for the others it's greed). I also never denied that political groups are trying to capitalize on it, just wait until it all died down and they go to town on each other in parliament, the major political groups will try to capitalize on the riots as much as fringe groups.

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(in reply to Arpig)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 4:40:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I also never denied that political groups are trying to capitalize on it, just wait until it all died down and they go to town on each other in parliament, the major political groups will try to capitalize on the riots as much as fringe groups.

In fact, they are already. Boris "Roderick Spode" Johnson (London's Mayor) has been blathering about this for the news.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 4:42:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Yes. believe they will get worse, unfortunately. This has been brewing for rather a long time.

What he said...a few years ago quite a few people said to me in the UK that a time with many riots will come in the near future....and seeing the riots last year and this year...they seem to have been right...

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 4:46:18 AM

Arpig

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quote:

I do doubt hlh's involvement from behind her laptop.

Why? What of the activities she claimed to be involved in seems implausible to you?

Do you deny the international nature of the anti-globalization protest movement? Do you deny that anarchists and other political fringe groups are associated with the anti-globalization protesters?

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 4:53:38 AM

Arpig

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LadyC, the homeless bit was just a little joke, I happened to spot it and thought it would be fun to point it out. I was really responding to HCM.

I'm not claiming that the ice cream fellow is anything, only grabbed a quick article that had a rioter proclaiming himself an anarchist and claiming that there was a political aspect to the riots. Nor am I claiming that Fox is the most reliable of sources, like I said, I just grabbed the first one I found.

Various people have expressed the view that the rioters were only relatively well-to-do thugs out to grab a bit of swag, rather than mostly angry poor people venting their anger. That is the view I am disputing.

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 5:00:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
I'm not claiming that the ice cream fellow is anything, only grabbed a quick article that had a rioter proclaiming himself an anarchist and claiming that there was a political aspect to the riots.

You're aware that there's a tendency for the various groups who attend protests trying to start a riot are prone to describing themselves as "anarchists" over here? It sounds a bit better than "looters", after all.
(Those stroppy undergraduates who've heard of Nestor Mahkno often believe that acting like a halfwit in public makes them look like him, rather than Robert Lindsay in Citizen Smith...)

As for better sources than Fox, have you had a look at the Grauniad website?

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 5:02:05 AM

Arpig

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No, I'll go check it out now.

ETA: Oh, The Guardian (Ididn't know it was called Grauniad)...yes I've been following several such sites, not just Fox.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 8/9/2011 5:04:54 AM >

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 5:09:49 AM

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Sorry, I keep forgetting that's a UK joke that doesn't travel to countries where the paper isn't published. The Guardian used to be notorious for how badly it was typeset and proofed, hence a lot of people renaming it in a typo-esque style.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 5:12:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Various people have expressed the view that the rioters were only relatively well-to-do thugs out to grab a bit of swag, rather than mostly angry poor people venting their anger. That is the view I am disputing.

I think it's important to make a difference between the protesters (who initially wanted a peaceful protest), the rioters (some might have a political motivation but I think the majority is just looking for mayhem - check out the spectacular picture of the woman leaping out of the burning building, small shops and small flats above the shops are being torched - people who are not very wealthy - if political it would be the revolution turning against their own) and the looters (in short thieves).

Of course there is anger, economic and political reasons, but they are throwing the wildest theories around, some are actually blaming it on the youth and their lack of discipline and willingness to commit violence... You know rioting at a concert because the band estimated things wrongs and the crowd gets angry, it also happens but you wouldn't claim political reasons, I'm not saying there are none, but a lot of what is happening seems to be just a desire for violence, aimed at people who are innocent.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 5:16:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Sorry, I keep forgetting that's a UK joke that doesn't travel to countries where the paper isn't published. The Guardian used to be notorious for how badly it was typeset and proofed, hence a lot of people renaming it in a typo-esque style.

That has changed a lot though, but it still isn't the Torygraph

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 5:16:46 AM

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One thing I have noticed in the vox pops is that the locals are claiming that most of the rioters (and almost all of the looters) aren't locals, which would explain the rapid spread of this shit. Once half of the businesses in hackney have been burned out or looted (or both) the local hoodies are going to nip over to Peckham (or wherever else they think the outsiders who did a lot of the damage came from, or any borough with a football team they dislike) and do the same thing there.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 5:19:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Sorry, I keep forgetting that's a UK joke that doesn't travel to countries where the paper isn't published. The Guardian used to be notorious for how badly it was typeset and proofed, hence a lot of people renaming it in a typo-esque style.

That has changed a lot though, but it still isn't the Torygraph

Absolutely. They knocked that shit on the head in the mid '80s. The name's stuck though.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 5:21:28 AM

Arpig

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quote:

a desire for violence, aimed at people who are innocent.

And how do you explain the sudden explosion of this random "desire for violence" in various different cities simultaneously?

Sorry, but I remain convinced that the primary motivation is indeed the social and economic grievances of an increasingly marginalized and prospectless segment of British society...to whit, the poor urban youth. Unless somebody has some actual evidence (not just opinions) of anything different, there's not really much point in continuing along these lines.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 5:24:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

a desire for violence, aimed at people who are innocent.
And how do you explain the sudden explosion of this random "desire for violence" in various different cities simultaneously?

Sorry, but I remain convinced that the primary motivation is indeed the social and economic grievances of an increasingly marginalized and prospectless segment of British society...to whit, the poor urban youth. Unless somebody has some actual evidence (not just opinions) of anything different, there's not really much point in continuing along these lines.

As I said before, the economic climate is not very good, a lot of people unemployed, a lot of cuts - doesn't tend to make people happy.

As for the various cities, it wasn't simultaneously, they've been rioting in London for 2 days and then had copycat behaviour in other cities but on a much smaller scale, if you check with the reports, all of the "riots" outside of London broke out in places where there were shops to loot - do you think looting is political?

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 5:29:18 AM

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I don't think anybody does.
The initial rioting on Friday was definitely political (the Met really doesn't have a good rep for picking on minorities), but it seems to have given a few people the idea that they can nick a lot more stuff if a few hundred of them start damaging property en mass than they could swipe by stuffing bits and pieces down their trackie bottoms on their own.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 5:36:39 AM

Arpig

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quote:

do you think looting is political?

Yes, often it is. Not necessarily in the minds of those doing the looting, but in the minds of those instigating it.

ETA: This discussion has become pointless. We disagree, and the class bigotry being shown is a little sickening and is pissing me off, so I'll drop it. You go ahead and paint them as just trackie wearing thugs, sorry chavs, who have hijacked a peaceful well-meaning protest in order to do some random looting and pillaging for the sheer desire for violence if you must, but I remain unconvinced.

Bye for now, I'm off to run some errands. I hope you all remain safe and well through this period of turmoil.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 8/9/2011 5:42:53 AM >

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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(in reply to LadyConstanze)

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