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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 5:50:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

do you think looting is political?
Yes, often it is. Not necessarily in the minds of those doing the looting, but in the minds of those instigating it.

ETA: This discussion has become pointless. We disagree, and the class bigotry being shown is a little sickening and is pissing me off, so I'll drop it. You go ahead and paint them as just trackie wearing thugs, sorry chavs, who have hijacked a peaceful well-meaning protest in order to do some random looting and pillaging for the sheer desire for violence if you must, but I remain unconvinced.

Bye for now, I'm off to run some errands. I hope you all remain safe and well through this period of turmoil.

Feel free to ignore everything we say, including the fact that it's happening on our doorstep, in the very culture we happen to live in and are dealing with it every day, I'm not convinced that at random news gives you a much better insight, and yes, it's all such a class bigotry, you could throw in a theory that the political motivators cleverly disguised as chavs to give the impression that a certain segment is rioting...

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 6:10:09 AM

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As pointless and ridiculous as this whole conversation is, this is probably a fair question.

I think there is an intellectual disconnect for someone to wax rhapsodic about buying a house for X number of dollars plus utilities, and then advocate the overthrow and replacement by __________of the government that provides at least some of those utilities, not to mention the infrastructure like the streets to get to the house. It won't be such a nice place without those things, now will it? If the rioting (or revolution, depending on your point of view) was taking place on the doorstep of Hannah's new digs, I don't believe she would be quite so excited.
I think there is a moral disconnect with wanting to own a house but espousing one's approval of actions that are destroying other peoples' homes, and their livelihoods as well. In fact, one could almost call that sociopathic.
No doubt you aren't going to agree with me here. Don't really care. And in the end, if she or anyone else wants to send their money to those kinds of groups, that's fine with me. Anarchists are notoriously ineffectual in causing any kind of political change.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Yes, if it weren't so disingenuous. One minute she is going on about buying a home, the next she is spouting anarchist bullshit. Since when was home ownership the dream of self proclaimed anarchist? Unless maybe she is buying the place so she can fire bomb it as a political statement.

Well, I hadn't intended to get involved in this mess, but since you effectively contested my remarks, I guess I will. Why not, I've got nothing better to do.

Anarchism is a loose grouping of political philosophies that have in common the desire to do away with coercive forms of government. The idea of having your own property, is in fact very much in line with some branches of anarchist thought, many forms of anarchism are simply more libertarian libertarians.You seem to be equating anarchism with some form of communism, or some "destroy everything" neo-luddite philosophy, neither of which it is.

So, please be so kind as to explain to me how wanting to own a home in any way renders somebody's proffession of an anarchistic philosophy disingenuous.

I await your answer with interest.

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(in reply to Arpig)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 6:14:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

~FR~
I can't say I agree with her stance or her actions or the aims and actions of her associates, but in all honesty, after proclaiming herself an anarchist and advocating the overthrow of all governments and societal controls for months, I have to admit I'd have been very disappointed in her if she didn't do and say what she is.

If she was fat you would not be agreeing with her you pathetic sycophant

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 6:22:19 AM

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If anyone wants some actual insight on the issues behind this, I recommend this article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html

There are reasons. Of course there are reasons. Happy contented people don't riot for the lols. Doesn't make it a sensible or worthwhile course of action though. No good is coming of this, nothing is being achieved.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 6:22:41 AM

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These people are not anarchists they are merely opportunists. They are the vultures of humanity. While the forces that can cause them harm are distracted they strike. strictly for their own personal gain and nothing more. There might be a handful of miscreants that are there only to further the turmoil. I imagine most of them are male and between the ages of 16-25 the preferred age of the anarchist...lol.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 6:35:58 AM

kdsub

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What you folks in the UK need is gun control for your police…what happened to whistles and paddy wackers for your bobbies….have you learned nothing from us?… I know…get them tasers.

I believe the shooting was just the spark that set off protests over the reduction of entitlements. It will be painful but you will learn, just as we are here in the US, that you must pay for your indulgences...There are no freebies in life. People must be responsible for themselves and not expect tax payers and government to support them.

Not a popular position in utopia but something you will be facing in the coming years…just as we are.

Butch

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 6:50:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
sorta reminds me of the riot and Rodney King.. that has been called "civil unrest" by some.. I dunno, did that riot change things?

I was just going to suggest that we could send our official riot ambassador Rodney King across the pond to teach everyone how to get along... if he's not currently in jail, that is.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 7:17:26 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

What you folks in the UK need is gun control for your police…what happened to whistles and paddy wackers for your bobbies….have you learned nothing from us?… I know…get them tasers.

I believe the shooting was just the spark that set off protests over the reduction of entitlements. It will be painful but you will learn, just as we are here in the US, that you must pay for your indulgences...There are no freebies in life. People must be responsible for themselves and not expect tax payers and government to support them.

Not a popular position in utopia but something you will be facing in the coming years…just as we are.

Butch

What entitlements? Are you utterly ignorant of the fact that the majority of people here support themselves and go without fancy non-essentials without a great beating of breasts?

The odd city may be suffering from a concentration of disaffected people but the majority of people are getting on with life as it presents itself and maybe take part in NON-violent protests such as *38degrees*, and actually having an effect without roaming around fucking up other people's lives, homes and the things those people hold dear.

No matter what political bent anyone has, there are ways and ways of being awkward without being a totally selfish, misery-causing tosser.

Even my 80yr old father is making a quiet, restrained stand against an unfair personal situation tax-wise and is perfectly prepared to go to prison if need be. He isn't going about torching people's homes to make his point.

agirl

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 7:29:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

What you folks in the UK need is gun control for your police…what happened to whistles and paddy wackers for your bobbies….have you learned nothing from us?… I know…get them tasers.

You're missing a pretty obvious point: beat police over here don't carry guns as a matter of course in the first place. Not even tasers. The dead idiot that kicked all this kerfuffle off attacked a firearms team.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 7:37:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

do you think looting is political?
Yes, often it is. Not necessarily in the minds of those doing the looting, but in the minds of those instigating it.

ETA: This discussion has become pointless. We disagree, and the class bigotry being shown is a little sickening and is pissing me off, so I'll drop it. You go ahead and paint them as just trackie wearing thugs, sorry chavs, who have hijacked a peaceful well-meaning protest in order to do some random looting and pillaging for the sheer desire for violence if you must, but I remain unconvinced.

Bye for now, I'm off to run some errands. I hope you all remain safe and well through this period of turmoil.

Not all of the chavs are out to loot...
Sadly, the people who are keen to give the Met a good hiding over their institutional racism and prejudice against the underclass and/or nick stuff tend not to be from the upper end of the social scale. They wouldn't be living on a vile estate in east London if they were, would they?

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(in reply to Arpig)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 8:41:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

What you folks in the UK need is gun control for your police…what happened to whistles and paddy wackers for your bobbies….have you learned nothing from us?… I know…get them tasers.

You're missing a pretty obvious point: beat police over here don't carry guns as a matter of course in the first place. Not even tasers. The dead idiot that kicked all this kerfuffle off attacked a firearms team.

If I'm not mistaken, the only shots fired were fired by police guns... I don't know if he was armed or not, or appeared to be armed, so I reserve judgement on that. But to be honest, never met a British cop who seemed to be eager to to kill or beat people. But it could also have something to do with the doggies, they love postmen and police, since they got treats and cuddles from both, so that usually makes for a rather friendly atmosphere if you have your dogs looking at rozzers with "We luv ya, will you pet us?" eyes.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 8:46:49 AM

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Well, that appears to be true, but they're claiming they shot at him because he went for them (which I find hard to credit, so it'll be interesting to see what the enquiry turns up). If they sent a firearms team to pick him up, though, they at least suspected that he was tooled up, didn't they?

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 8:52:16 AM

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He went for them from inside a taxi?

That's impressive.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 9:05:41 AM

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That's their story, and they're sticking to it at the moment, however absurd it looks.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 9:07:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Well, that appears to be true, but they're claiming they shot at him because he went for them (which I find hard to credit, so it'll be interesting to see what the enquiry turns up). If they sent a firearms team to pick him up, though, they at least suspected that he was tooled up, didn't they?

To be honest, it does seem more than just a bit dodgy.

From what I gathered

quote:

August 4, 2011 - Police investigating gun crime in the black community shoot 29-year-old Mark Duggan after stopping him in a taxi in Tottenham, north London. He dies at the scene after the shooting at 1715 GMT.

Could be that they had reason to believe he was carrying a gun, but still seems to be strange that they'd just start shooting and decide to ask questions later.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 9:11:51 AM

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Definitely looks a bit fishy. On the other hand, while "gun crime" is a very nebulous term, it'd explain why they sent a firearms team to pick him up rather than the CID, wouldn't it?
A real cynic, of course, might suggest that they were sent out to shoot one of these lads (whether he was packing or not, regardless of whether he even tried to resist arrest) as a warning to the rest. In which case, it seems to have backfired a bit, doesn't it?

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 9:17:22 AM

Arpig

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quote:

Not all of the chavs are out to loot...
Sadly, the people who are keen to give the Met a good hiding over their institutional racism and prejudice against the underclass and/or nick stuff tend not to be from the upper end of the social scale. They wouldn't be living on a vile estate in east London if they were, would they?

Thank you for that Moonhead.

Now what was it you said LadyC? Oh yes.....

quote:

I'm not convinced that at random news gives you a much better insight,

Well, apparently it does, now doesn't it?

What was that?

quote:

Feel free to ignore everything we say

Well I must say, that does seem to be the sensible course of action, don't you agree?

As far as the original shooting, the details I have found (as of around 7 hours ago) are that they did find a "non-police" gun at the scene, and that one police radio had been hit by a "police issue" bullet. I leave you to interpret that anyway you want.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 9:23:28 AM

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He had a gun with him, but it was in his sock, so regarding the gun laws in this country, the chances that he had nothing to do with criminal activities and was a harmless citizen seem to be slim, a gun in your sock in the middle of London is also a bit dodgy. On the other hand, the MET... I wouldn't be surprised if there is a lot of dodginess on both sides

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/met-communications-department-mark-duggan

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/mark-duggan-profile-tottenham-shooting

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There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 9:34:16 AM

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One of the reasons the Met are so loathed by London's minority communities is that they're no slouches at planting evidence. They can stick a gun on a corpse even faster than Two Para used to in Belfast...

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 9:39:56 AM

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You mean they would go after a harmless, law abiding citizen, make sure he's shot in a cab, plant a gun on him, involve the fire arms team all for no reason, just to have the chance to cover up a crime they committed?

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There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to Moonhead)

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