RE: what fucking community?

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hausboy -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 8:09:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather leather is a community, that's practically the whole fucking point of it with you guys. it's the nebulous community that leather is supposedly a part of i was referring to. the amorphous bdsm one that somehow includes us all. but, as always hausboy, thanks for your perspective, i love reading you reminiscences. they speak to me on a really deep level and give me a glimpse of a life i can relate to, but never really knew existed. which brings me to another point. if there is this huge fucking global community, how come i never heard shit about the leather folk before, eh? "amorphous" is probably the perfect word for it now. Ever changing with no distinct form. I hope I don't insult you by asking this--no disrespect intended--but have you read the work "Coming To Power" by the SAMOIS collective, "The Second Coming"(Full disclosure: I'm in that one), "Leatherfolk" and pretty much any of Patrick Califia's non-fiction works? All outstanding queer reads, and used to be the "required reading" for leatherqueers everywhere. The topic of "Is there a BDSM/Leather Community?" is a discussed quite a bit. You might enjoy it! edited: typos and more typos

HannahLynHeather -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 8:12:02 PM)
no i haven't, but i'm adding them to my reading list. thanks.

RaspberryLemon -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 8:12:51 PM)
I'm kind of glad someone pointed this out. I am really getting sick of people talking about "the community" or "the lifestyle." Fuck that. There's no standards here, or rules, or expectations that aren't the ones individuals set up for themselves. There is no "THE lifestyle." That's like saying that people that like having pet dogs are living "the lifestyle." It's just part of their life. Sure, they have something in common with other dog owners in that they both own dogs, but it doesn't qualify them as some stupid little club. Now, I'm not talking about this website, I'm talking about as a whole. I suppose you could call this website a community, but as Hannah said, only because we're converging here to discuss/debate/talk about certain subjects. But as a whole, just because I don't fuck around and go to BDSM clubs and play publicly or any of that shit doesn't mean I'm "missing out" on the whole point of it. Who the fuck defines what the whole point of it is for me? I do. And the point of it for me is just the way my relationship runs. I don't think that qualifies me as being part of a "community" or "lifestyle" anymore than being heterosexual or homosexual does. It's just something that is part of MY life. What I do with my man and my sex life has nothing to do with a "community." I could give a damn how other people that do similar things with their lives chose to define it or run it. They can consider it a "community" all they want and take part in all sorts of community-related activities and make it into some sort of weird-ass convention of freaks, but that is just not for me. It's not some sort of secret club for me, I just happen to enjoy something that some other people also do in a similar fashion--with very broad perimeters, I might add. So it's not a fucking community. Not for me. If there is one somewhere, I sure as hell am not part of it.

LadyPact -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 8:19:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather which brings me to another point. if there is this huge fucking global community, how come i never heard shit about the leather folk before, eh? I'm going with two primary reasons. One, is your location. From what I'm getting in living up here, leather is kind of 'catching up' when compared to your southern border. The other might have something to do with the 'you don't care about the history of BDSM/leather' stuff that you've flat out said on other threads.

hausboy -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 8:22:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather no i haven't, but i'm adding them to my reading list. thanks. Macho Sluts by P. Califia (his name is Patrick, you may need to look under Pat) is absolutely one of the best one-handed reads ever. I got rid of most of my library, but damn, I will never get rid of that one! Hot leatherdyke porn that was extremely edgy for the time it was written. I suppose today when people are piercing themselves with flagpoles, lighting themselves on fire and hanging upside down from the dungeon rafters, it's tame by comparison but I learned early to never lend it to friends because it would never come back!

gungadin09 -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 8:30:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather why do people seem to think there is more to this shit, where does this backasswards idea of a "community" come from? and why do they think we are any fucking different than any other group of random people? Out of curiosity, do you believe there is such a thing as a community? Any community? Can you name a community that you believe DOES exist? pam

hausboy -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 8:33:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RaspberryLemon I'm kind of glad someone pointed this out. I am really getting sick of people talking about "the community" or "the lifestyle." Fuck that. There's no standards here, or rules, or expectations that aren't the ones individuals set up for themselves. There is no "THE lifestyle." That's like saying that people that like having pet dogs are living "the lifestyle." It's just part of their life. Sure, they have something in common with other dog owners in that they both own dogs, but it doesn't qualify them as some stupid little club. Now, I'm not talking about this website, I'm talking about as a whole. I suppose you could call this website a community, but as Hannah said, only because we're converging here to discuss/debate/talk about certain subjects. But as a whole, just because I don't fuck around and go to BDSM clubs and play publicly or any of that shit doesn't mean I'm "missing out" on the whole point of it. Who the fuck defines what the whole point of it is for me? I do. And the point of it for me is just the way my relationship runs. I don't think that qualifies me as being part of a "community" or "lifestyle" anymore than being heterosexual or homosexual does. It's just something that is part of MY life. What I do with my man and my sex life has nothing to do with a "community." I could give a damn how other people that do similar things with their lives chose to define it or run it. They can consider it a "community" all they want and take part in all sorts of community-related activities and make it into some sort of weird-ass convention of freaks, but that is just not for me. It's not some sort of secret club for me, I just happen to enjoy something that some other people also do in a similar fashion--with very broad perimeters, I might add. So it's not a fucking community. Not for me. If there is one somewhere, I sure as hell am not part of it. You've made me think about something--as a dyke, I was already feeling disenfranchised and so my Gay/Lesbian Community was my world....Gay and Lesbian Civil Rights really didn't skyrocket into the spotlight until 1969's Stonewall Riots, and without any queer role models, it was very isolating. We stuck together as a way to support each other and survive. I didn't always like everyone, but we considered one another "family" when THAT community pushed me away for being into leather/BDSM, the leather/BDSM community was my new refuge. Since I do not know anything about you, RaspberryLemon, I don't want to make any assumptions about your background. So I'm saying this in general terms--not directed specifically at you-- if you have never experienced the discrimination and hatred that many of us endured for years, then finding a place to call your own-that is, a community--among people where you felt you belonged--may not be important to you. The leather community (and the LGBT Community) was a safe-haven. A place both physical and conceptual, where I felt safe from the violence and hatred of the rest of the world. Edited to add: And yes--we DID have "secret" little clubs--we had to. The police would regularly do busts and not always legally or with the intent to enforce the law.

RaspberryLemon -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 8:50:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hausboy You've made me think about something--as a dyke, I was already feeling disenfranchised and so my Gay/Lesbian Community was my world....Gay and Lesbian Civil Rights really didn't skyrocket into the spotlight until 1969's Stonewall Riots, and without any queer role models, it was very isolating. We stuck together as a way to support each other and survive. I didn't always like everyone, but we considered one another "family" when THAT community pushed me away for being into leather/BDSM, the leather/BDSM community was my new refuge. Since I do not know anything about you, RaspberryLemon, I don't want to make any assumptions about your background. So I'm saying this in general terms--not directed specifically at you-- if you have never experienced the discrimination and hatred that many of us endured for years, then finding a place to call your own-that is, a community--among people where you felt you belonged--may not be important to you. The leather community (and the LGBT Community) was a safe-haven. A place both physical and conceptual, where I felt safe from the violence and hatred of the rest of the world. Edited to add: And yes--we DID have "secret" little clubs--we had to. The police would regularly do busts and not always legally or with the intent to enforce the law. But that doesn't make EVERY gay person part of the "gay community." They could just, you know, be gay--the tendency to be sexually attracted to your own gender doesn't automatically put you in a "community" unless you choose to be. And I understand the desire to belong, I really do. For me, though, I don't have to be a part of some "club"/"community"/"lifestyle" to feel like I belong. Just one person who shares my views and morals and respects me as I am is enough. Even before I had that, I just kept it all to myself. I don't think trying to fit in with a hugely loose group of people based on the type of relationship I wanted would have made me feel better. It would probably have just made me feel stupid for trying to identify with people who I have so little in common with. Sure, maybe that works for some people. But it's just not for me.

SuzeCheri -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 9:05:01 PM)
I have something to say, from an outsider's point of view. First to hausboy and his remarks about the LGBT community. Well they aren't really all that accepting. Bisexuals aren't really that welcome, most of the gays and lesbians seem to think they are still half in the closet and look down on them for that. And the trans folk are barely tolerated, they let them in just so they couldn't be accused of being discriminatory themselves. You wouldn't believe the grief I got when I admitted that I'd had sex with men, and that it wasn't really all that bad and that I probably would again in the future. It was like standing up in the middle of a synagogue and saying Hitler wasn't such a bad guy. They are only a community for convenience and for lobbying purposes. They did kick you out for not fitting in with their idea of what constituted an acceptable member. Now, on to the idea of a general BDSM community. I don't see one, at least not judging from what I see here. I see it in the reactions people have when somebody says that BDSM is basically about sex. The response is "Oh, well you're only into kinky sex". ONLY. The implications of that word are enormous, yet it gets thrown around all the time. I also see it in the reactions of some of those involved in their local BDSM groups, the "I feel sorry for you" or "You're missing out on real BDSM" remarks. It's the same thing, exclusionary. Now I don't know if BDSM is about sex or more, I'll be honest, it's the sex that interests me, and I don't know what value, if any there is in being part of your local BDSM group either. But what I do know, is that when your reaction to a dissenting opinion is automatically exclusionary, you are NOT a community. There, that's what I think as a non-kinky, non-BDSMer reading the words of the Collarchat "community".

hausboy -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 9:08:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RaspberryLemon But that doesn't make EVERY gay person part of the "gay community." They could just, you know, be gay--the tendency to be sexually attracted to your own gender doesn't automatically put you in a "community" unless you choose to be. And I understand the desire to belong, I really do. For me, though, I don't have to be a part of some "club"/"community"/"lifestyle" to feel like I belong. Just one person who shares my views and morals and respects me as I am is enough. Even before I had that, I just kept it all to myself. I don't think trying to fit in with a hugely loose group of people based on the type of relationship I wanted would have made me feel better. It would probably have just made me feel stupid for trying to identify with people who I have so little in common with. Sure, maybe that works for some people. But it's just not for me. That's entirely true---and there were MANY people who definitely did not want to be a part of the Gay community. They thought the parades and such were ridiculous, flaunting nonsense--and there was also a very conservative "it's better to stay in the closet" movement. One of my dearest gay friends is now in his 80's--he has been in the closet his entire life. He went to his first gay bar with ME, when he was in his 60's! He prefers to live his own life, quietly and discreetly. As you said, it's a personal choice. Here's the big difference that I found--at the time when I was seeking (and found) community, BDSM was not just about what I did in bed with other people. It was a form of culture...it was history...it was true social networking long before the electronic age. Very few of us felt that it was just something we do to spice things up. In fact, the only time I heard that sentiment--it was from the straight folks I'd met. One of the many differences that fueled an unnecessary schism for a long time.

Wolf2Bear -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 9:11:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RaspberryLemon quote: ORIGINAL: hausboy You've made me think about something--as a dyke, I was already feeling disenfranchised and so my Gay/Lesbian Community was my world....Gay and Lesbian Civil Rights really didn't skyrocket into the spotlight until 1969's Stonewall Riots, and without any queer role models, it was very isolating. We stuck together as a way to support each other and survive. I didn't always like everyone, but we considered one another "family" when THAT community pushed me away for being into leather/BDSM, the leather/BDSM community was my new refuge. Since I do not know anything about you, RaspberryLemon, I don't want to make any assumptions about your background. So I'm saying this in general terms--not directed specifically at you-- if you have never experienced the discrimination and hatred that many of us endured for years, then finding a place to call your own-that is, a community--among people where you felt you belonged--may not be important to you. The leather community (and the LGBT Community) was a safe-haven. A place both physical and conceptual, where I felt safe from the violence and hatred of the rest of the world. Edited to add: And yes--we DID have "secret" little clubs--we had to. The police would regularly do busts and not always legally or with the intent to enforce the law. But that doesn't make EVERY gay person part of the "gay community." They could just, you know, be gay--the tendency to be sexually attracted to your own gender doesn't automatically put you in a "community" unless you choose to be. And I understand the desire to belong, I really do. For me, though, I don't have to be a part of some "club"/"community"/"lifestyle" to feel like I belong. Just one person who shares my views and morals and respects me as I am is enough. Even before I had that, I just kept it all to myself. I don't think trying to fit in with a hugely loose group of people based on the type of relationship I wanted would have made me feel better. It would probably have just made me feel stupid for trying to identify with people who I have so little in common with. Sure, maybe that works for some people. But it's just not for me. Try thinking of ``community```as being a collective of people who share similar interest, kinks, sexual proclivities and such. It does not mean an actual physical emtity like a neighborhood or town a group of people live in. as I take it, when many refer to people in BDSM, in all it`s various forms, they do refer themselves as being part of a community or collective of like mind people. same goes with people who identify as Leather folk, Bears etc. Yes there are many who feel they do not need to consider themselves as being part of and there are other who do. The ones who do consider themselves being in the kink community, more than likely do so because they feel they are among others who have a better understanding and grasp of the issues and camaraderie that is found among the kinky folk. One does NOT mean it is better or worse than the other. We are all still individual people who have our own way of perceiving ourselves and our environment. No man or woman is an island unto themselves.

RaspberryLemon -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 9:19:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hausboy That's entirely true---and there were MANY people who definitely did not want to be a part of the Gay community. They thought the parades and such were ridiculous, flaunting nonsense--and there was also a very conservative "it's better to stay in the closet" movement. One of my dearest gay friends is now in his 80's--he has been in the closet his entire life. He went to his first gay bar with ME, when he was in his 60's! He prefers to live his own life, quietly and discreetly. As you said, it's a personal choice. Here's the big difference that I found--at the time when I was seeking (and found) community, BDSM was not just about what I did in bed with other people. It was a form of culture...it was history...it was true social networking long before the electronic age. Very few of us felt that it was just something we do to spice things up. In fact, the only time I heard that sentiment--it was from the straight folks I'd met. One of the many differences that fueled an unnecessary schism for a long time. Well, to clarify, it's not just "something to spice things up" to me, either. It's an integral part of me and my intimate bond and relationship with my partner. It's part of me, it's part of him, it's part of our life--inside and outside of the bedroom. It's the way we express our love and trust in each other. But it's not a culture to me, either. There's no community or history behind it for me. It's just the way I personally live my life--it doesn't have anything to do with the near-religion that people seem to have built around this sort of thing. It's fine if they want to have that community aspect to it and take part of it, but I don't like it when it is implied or expressed that everybody who practices something that falls under the category of BDSM or D/s etc. is automatically part of "the lifestyle"/"the community" as if that has to be what it's all about for everyone. Some people are just like this because that's the way they are and they enjoy it and it has nothing to do with other people that may or may not be into the same thing.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 9:22:05 PM)
quote: as I take it, when many refer to people in BDSM, in all it`s various forms, they do refer themselves as being part of a community or collective of like mind people. my point is they aren't. there is no such collectivity of like minded people. look at suze's first thread, do we agree on anything, and the answer she got? a resounding "fuck no!" there is no common ground at all, we don't agree on what is extreme play, or appropriate in public, or what orientations are valid. switches are regularly told they don't really exist. sub men are told they are just weak little pussies or closet fags, and dominant women get told they aren't really dominant, they're just role playing. we disagree on absolutely everything to do with bdsm, including what the fuck bdsm actually is. there is absolutely no commonality of thought, not even a hint of it, and without that there can be no community. fuck we're arguing if we are a community or not. what the fuck does that say about the community if it can't even agree it exists?

hausboy -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 9:24:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri I have something to say, from an outsider's point of view. First to hausboy and his remarks about the LGBT community. Well they aren't really all that accepting. Bisexuals aren't really that welcome, most of the gays and lesbians seem to think they are still half in the closet and look down on them for that. And the trans folk are barely tolerated, they let them in just so they couldn't be accused of being discriminatory themselves. You wouldn't believe the grief I got when I admitted that I'd had sex with men, and that it wasn't really all that bad and that I probably would again in the future. It was like standing up in the middle of a synagogue and saying Hitler wasn't such a bad guy. They are only a community for convenience and for lobbying purposes. They did kick you out for not fitting in with their idea of what constituted an acceptable member. Now, on to the idea of a general BDSM community. I don't see one, at least not judging from what I see here. I see it in the reactions people have when somebody says that BDSM is basically about sex. The response is "Oh, well you're only into kinky sex". ONLY. The implications of that word are enormous, yet it gets thrown around all the time. I also see it in the reactions of some of those involved in their local BDSM groups, the "I feel sorry for you" or "You're missing out on real BDSM" remarks. It's the same thing, exclusionary. Now I don't know if BDSM is about sex or more, I'll be honest, it's the sex that interests me, and I don't know what value, if any there is in being part of your local BDSM group either. But what I do know, is that when your reaction to a dissenting opinion is automatically exclusionary, you are NOT a community. There, that's what I think as a non-kinky, non-BDSMer reading the words of the Collarchat "community". Thanks Suze-- no argument on that. When I made the proposal to put the "B" in the LGBA, you'd think that I had just suggested we murder puppies. The fighting over "bisexuals" went on for years, and you don't need to tell me how the gay community treats transgender folks--the fight over whether or not to allow transgender women into PowerSurge (a leatherdyke conference in Seattle in the early 90's) was one of the most vicious debates I've ever sat through. I don't see a strong LGBTQI (every year, another letter...) Community these days, and maybe that's because in the major cities now, there isn't a strong NEED for one. When I came out, there was a need--the gay places to go were truly a safe oasis. Today--I don't really see that. Maybe that's what happened to the BDSM Community as I know it. Without sounding condescending, I do feel it's a shame that there are those who didn't and won't ever experience it. For myself, I regret that I didn't get to experience the leather world BEFORE AIDS destroyed it. Perhaps if I were the new generation of leatherfolk today, I'd feel completely differently. Then again... I'm also someone who prefers rotary phones to iPhones. Perhaps I'm just clinging to the scraps of the past.

hausboy -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 9:30:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather there is absolutely no commonality of thought, not even a hint of it, and without that there can be no community. fuck we're arguing if we are a community or not. what the fuck does that say about the community if it can't even agree it exists? Hannah--that reminds me of a very good friend of mine who passed away a few years ago--you would have loved her--she was a no bullshit, in-your-face, take-no-shit kinda Leatherdyke-- a brilliant cartoonist Kris Kovick. She published a book of her comics called: "What I love about Lesbian Politics is Arguing with People I Agree With"

Icarys -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 9:48:54 PM)
quote: there is absolutely no commonality of thought, not even a hint of it, and without that there can be no community. fuck we're arguing if we are a community or not. what the fuck does that say about the community if it can't even agree it exists? There doesn't have to be. And you guys are arguing because that's what humans do...disagree or agree which again has no bearing on the words meaning. Lat made a remark earlier wondering how long it would be before someone brought a definition into the mix. Unfortunately, you can't escape the words meaning whether it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside or not...whether you agree with it or not. Unless of course we all just start writing our own meanings to everything. Asshole: A very kind person. A person of compassion. (Sounds logical right? lol) Here's a definition for all to read....I know some of you have been out of school for awhile. (Inside joke somewhere in there, Vaguely but there nonetheless.) http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/community No picking and choosing.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 9:53:50 PM)
ok, no picking and choosing, lets see if any apply 1. nope 1a. nope 1b. nope 1c. nope 1d. nope 1e. nope 1f. nope 1g. nope 2. nope 3a. nope 3b. nope 3c. nope 3d. nope there you have it, it's not a community, by fucking definition. thanks icky.

ThatsMissBitch -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 9:55:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather quote: LOL People do tend to insult and laugh at things they don't understand. irony, thy name is thatmissbitch. [:D] quote: there would be acceptance and a bit of tolerance. fuck that shit, you're accepting and tolerant of ideas and people who you agree with and that's it. if you claim otherwise then you're lying. how do i know? just look around you sugar, you're none too fucking accepting of me and my ideas. if you really are accepting, then be it. me? i never claimed to be accepting and tolerant, so i don't fucking have to, but you do, you claim it as part of your way, so walk the talk babe. Thats Miss Bitch came from a boy calling me a bitch in a scene. I hit him again and told him That's Miss Bitch to you. It just sort of stuck. I does fit at times I can be a bitch. [;)] Being tolerant does not mean one has to accept rudness. What I am not tolerant about is personal attacks on people for no other reason than "you can". Acutally I find some of your ideas interesting, they make great debate material. What is harder to accept is reading through the vulgarities, but hey if that is the way you need to present yourself to each their own.

hausboy -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 9:56:14 PM)
Too funny. I'm sitting here going... yup. yup. yup yup yup yup bingo! community. well...it WAS anyway.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: what fucking community? (8/12/2011 10:05:49 PM)
quote: Thats Miss Bitch came from a boy calling me a bitch in a scene. I hit him again and told him That's Miss Bitch to you. It just sort of stuck. I does fit at times I can be a bitch. huh? i wasn't asking you about your name, i was saying you didn't understand. go back and read it again slowly. as to the rest, well i predicted you'd say something along those lines, and i also explained what it would mean. you're lying. do you really want me to go and grab some quotes of you to show just how intolerant you are? if you want the humiliation, i can provide it for you.

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