RE: what fucking community?

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HannahLynHeather -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 9:07:39 AM)
you may be hoping to persuade somebody of something, but i am not. i have made a proposition, and i intend to defend that proposition. i am replying to each person's point in turn, this is what is called an exchange of ideas. don't blame me if my replies are getting a little repetitive, the points being raised to challenge my proposition are getting fucking repetitive. if this bothers you, read some other fucking thread. or here's a really novel fucking idea, if you disagree with me, think of some new way to challenge my premise, rather than repeating the same old shit that has been considered and dealt with.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 9:24:50 AM)
thanks for the good thread remark, i do try to raise topics to make people think. now most of what you say applies to the leather folk, an admittedly small subset of the whole, so it really doesn't speak to my point except in the inverse. the fact that such a clearly defined community can exist within the whole and that it differs so fucking vastly from the whole, sort of proves that the whole is not a community. at least not by the standards you are measuring a community. as you say, s.f. was unique. the ssc bit also shows my point. not everybody is an ssc player, some prefer rack, some ignore them both. so even allowing the stretch, there isn't any common fucking policy. the leather history may be very important in the u.s., but it isn't elsewhere, i doubt the average kinky fucker in moscow owes any debt to the guys who fought in frisco way back then. you seem to equate the experience of the leather community as somehow representative of everybody. it isn't. it is a small minority, it always was. its relevance decreases with every border you cross. i'm sorry, but you guys just aren't as important to the rest of the world as you like to think you are. i'm not trying to be insulting, i'm just telling you the way it fucking is. the rest of the world doesn't hold it's fucking breath waiting to see which way the u.s. goes on these sorts of moral/social issues, we tend to sit back and wait for the u.s. to catch up. as i've said before, the fellowship does have to include everybody in order for there to be an all-inclusive THE community of bdsm. to say that there is an overall bdsm community that doesn't include everybody into bdsm is fucking ridiculous.

hausboy -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 9:26:00 AM)
I know it probably deserves its own thread....but how many of you are familiar with these WITHOUT looking it up in Wikipedia... 1. Operation Spanner 2. The Eulenspiegel Society 3. Mr. Marcus/Marcus Hernandez 4. Rev. Troy Perry (hint: MCC) 5. Tony DeBlase 6. Gayle Rubin, Cynthia Slater & Patrick (then Pat) Califia...and SAMOIS 7. NLA 8. Tom of Finland (ever seen "Daddy and The Muscle Academy"? Totally worth seeing. 9. Black Rose 10. American Brotherhood Weekend Can you name ten non-fiction BDSM/Leather related books? (no cheating on Amazon!) Can you name ten leather titleholders (gay, straight, male, female, etc.) Can you name ten leather/BDSM artists/photographers or musicians? Can you name ten leather/BDSM clubs/groups/social organizations? Can you name ten significant events in leather/BDSM history? If not.... please DO look them up, visit the archives, see the traveling exhibit when it comes to your city/town...read the non-fiction (hell, read the fiction too--it's good stuff!)

HannahLynHeather -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 9:28:34 AM)
quote: While I agree that expectations that some people perceive and associate with the idea of a 'bdsm community' can get greatly overblown, that's pretty much what prompted the thread, and is pretty much my reason for rejecting the idea of a bdsm community being anything but a convenient shorthand way of referring to us in general. it's a fucking easy phrase to use, as you said, less keystrokes, but essentially meaningless.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 9:31:22 AM)
i've heard of eulanspiegel and black rose, but couldn't tell you in what context or what they represent. which sort of reinforces my point about leather not really being all that fucking important in the grand scheme of things.

hausboy -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 9:42:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather the leather history may be very important in the u.s., but it isn't elsewhere, i doubt the average kinky fucker in moscow owes any debt to the guys who fought in frisco way back then. you seem to equate the experience of the leather community as somehow representative of everybody. it isn't. it is a small minority, it always was. its relevance decreases with every border you cross. i'm sorry, but you guys just aren't as important to the rest of the world as you like to think you are. i'm not trying to be insulting, i'm just telling you the way it fucking is. the rest of the world doesn't hold it's fucking breath waiting to see which way the u.s. goes on these sorts of moral/social issues, we tend to sit back and wait for the u.s. to catch up. Well....again, I'm afraid I'll have to just disagree here too. The Spanner Trial in England, had signifcant impact all over the world. Tom of Finland (Helsinki) through his erotic art, DID have a social and cultural impact all over the world. (seriously--check out that movie!) There are organized leather and BDSM organizations in England, France, Amsterdam, Germany, Australia, Brazil, yes--even Russia. All over the world. I've met leatherfolk(kinky folk from all over the world, and how they describe and define their communities may be different from the states, but I have seen firsthand, examples of a leather brotherhood that stretches across Europe and around the world. Stonewall was a spark to a new sexual revolution, the effects of which were felt worldwide. Now, I believe that there are plenty of folks who don't give a rats ass about it. I get that. They want to just fuck, play, serve, live their lives with those they love. They do not claim the history as their own--and perhaps they are right. It isn't THEIR history to them. There is a leather/BDSM history, there is a culture (well, subculture to me) and learning the history of that culture is just as important as knowing how to swing a whip. I admit that I'm biased here. I lived in the SAMOIS house after Cynthia Slater died--I was friends with many of the authors, artists, political activists whose work so strongly influenced me. It saddens me that entire generations of new BDSMers won't know their names, or more importantly, their cultural contributions.

windchymes -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 9:49:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather quote: While I agree that expectations that some people perceive and associate with the idea of a 'bdsm community' can get greatly overblown, that's pretty much what prompted the thread, and is pretty much my reason for rejecting the idea of a bdsm community being anything but a convenient shorthand way of referring to us in general. it's a fucking easy phrase to use, as you said, less keystrokes, but essentially meaningless. Ron used to have a sigline that was a quote from Jack Rinella, who has written a lot of well-liked books about BDSM, etc. It started out with "There is no pope of rope......" He's in the area, maybe he'll drop by and post it for us :)

VaguelyCurious -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 9:50:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: outhere69 Jaysus, woman. FFS, you don't agree. We ain't changing your mind. We all have different views. What's the problem? It goes back to what Hannah Lynn said before - we're more like a debating society than a community. You've been here a while; you must have known how this thread would go before it even started, so it's not like you've stumbled on the debate by accident. Don't like? Don't read. --- A FR about the original topic: I've decided that what irritates me is not when I hear people talk about the BDSM community, but the BDSM Community, with a Very Capital C (implied or otherwise). Like it actually means something important or special. The leather communities hausboy's talking about? They means something. Their members have achieved things together, they care about each other, there is value. The 'Community' as a whole? Jackshit. It's achieved nothing, and the idea that any of us owe anything to it verges on the pathetic. (Going out soon, won't be back until tomorrow - won't see any but the speediest of replies. :p)

hausboy -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 10:15:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hausboy I know it probably deserves its own thread....but how many of you are familiar with these WITHOUT looking it up in Wikipedia... 1. Operation Spanner 2. The Eulenspiegel Society 3. Mr. Marcus/Marcus Hernandez 4. Rev. Troy Perry (hint: MCC) 5. Tony DeBlase 6. Gayle Rubin, Cynthia Slater & Patrick (then Pat) Califia...and SAMOIS 7. NLA 8. Tom of Finland (ever seen "Daddy and The Muscle Academy"? Totally worth seeing. 9. Black Rose 10. American Brotherhood Weekend Can you name ten non-fiction BDSM/Leather related books? (no cheating on Amazon!) Can you name ten leather titleholders (gay, straight, male, female, etc.) Can you name ten leather/BDSM artists/photographers or musicians? Can you name ten leather/BDSM clubs/groups/social organizations? Can you name ten significant events in leather/BDSM history? If not.... please DO look them up, visit the archives, see the traveling exhibit when it comes to your city/town...read the non-fiction (hell, read the fiction too--it's good stuff!) 1. Operation Spanner: Police raided a nightclub in England in 1987, arresting the subjects. They were convicted after a trial that went on for years, including appeals. They lost- it was significant because the court ruled that someone could NOT give consent to being hurt and that consent was not an valid defense. The defendants were jailed for years, and lost appeal after appeal. Charitable fundraisers were held worldwide by leather clubs to raise money to aid their legal defense team. 2. Eulenspiegel--sounds like you know that one....cool! 3. Marcus Hernandez, Mr. Marcus, was a leather/SM columnist and writer who traveled all over the entire world. He wrote a newspaper column for the Bay Area Reporter but it was syndicated, and appeared in leather/BDSM journals and publications everywhere. He mostly covered fundraisers, titleholder events, festivals, marches and clubs--I never realized how well-known (and traveled) he was until recently. His column ran about 40 years. 4. Rev. Troy Perry was a leatherman who founded the Metropolitan Community Church. It is a global fellowship of churches--I believe now in more than 20 different counties--they were protestant but the passed decade has become more multi-denominational (sorry--not sure that's a real word) , but has historically been open to everyone--straight, gay, lesbian, bi, transgender--and they have always been openly inclusive to BDSM/leatherfolk and outreached to those populations specifically. The whole gay marriage movement started there. 5. Tony DeBlase designed the Leather Pride flag. 6. Cynthia Slater, Gayle Rubin and Patrick Califia founded SAMOIS, the first women's organization for BDSM/leather. They produced a number of literature--"What Color Is Your Hankerchief?" "The Lesbian SM Safety Manual" (good for anyone, not just lesbians and "Coming To Power" a collection of art, writing, poetry, fiction and essays on women into BDSM and leather. It was groundbreaking work--Gayle and Patrick are both prolific writers who have studied the social, cultural and spiritual aspects of BDSM and between the two of them, could fill your bookshelves with their work. 7. NLA: National Leather Association An organization with chapters all over the Country and North America (There may now be chapters in other countries--I think there are) dedicated to BDSM/Leather education, public law/policy and.....preserving the BDSM/Leather Community. 8. Tom of Finland: Tom was an erotic artist--a gay man--but I guarantee if you've seen any BDSM art, it was influenced by Tom of Finland. I was just in Helsinki--and sadly, the day I could get out to the museums--they were both closed. (this was devastating to me--I have never been able to see any of his originals!) His work was a celebration of gay men--as a lesbian, that may not hold any interest, but a surprising number of his fans are lesbians and straight folks. "Daddy and The Muscle Academy" was a documentary produced about 10 years or so ago, all about Tom, his work, and the impact it had on Leather/BDSM culture. 9. Black Rose--you know that one. also cool. 10. American Brotherhood Weekend--ABW was originally a gay national titleholder contest--it was the first American National title--the other titles around were Internationals, Regionals, States, Cities, etc. What made ABW significant was their willingness to open up the contest (after MUCH heated debates I'm sure) to transgender, bisexual and straight BDSM/Leather folks. When I first got involved, ABW was just for lesbian and gay leatherfolks. Now, it is one of the most diverse title organizations anywhere, with past and current titleholders coming from gay, straight, bi, trans backgrounds. Patrick Califia wrote several books--in addition to GREAT lesbian porn--I have cut and pasted this from the web--want to be sure I get all the titles right: What Color is Your Handkerchief: A Lesbian S/M Sexuality Reader (ed), SAMOIS, 1979. Pat Califia: "A Personal View of the History of the Lesbian S/M Community and Movement in San Francisco", 1981. in: Coming to Power: Writings and Graphics on Lesbian S/M. Alyson Publications, Boston, 3rd ed Oktober 1987, ISBN 0-932870-28-7 Sapphistry: The book of lesbian sexuality, Naiad Press, April 1988, ISBN 0-941483-24-X Lesbian Sadomasochism Safety Manual, Alyson Books, June 1988, ISBN 1-555833-01-2 Advocate Adviser, Alyson Books, June 1991, ISBN 1-55583-169-9 Forbidden Passages: Writings Banned in Canada, Cleis Press, November 1995, ISBN 1-57344-019-1 Sex Changes: The Politics of Transgenderism, Cleis Press, July 1997, ISBN 1-57344-072-8 Sensuous Magic: A Guide for Adventurous Lovers, Masquerade Books, January 1998, ISBN 1-56333-610-3 Bitch Goddess: The Spiritual Path of the Dominant Woman, Greenery Press, December 1998, ISBN 1-890159-04-2 Public Sex: The Culture of Radical Sex , Cleis Press, June 2000, ISBN 1-57344-096-5 Speaking Sex to Power: The Politics of Queer Sex, Cleis Press, November 2001, ISBN 1-57344-132-5 That's just Patrick-- also check out the work of Larry Townsend, John Preston, Mark Thompson to get you started. "Coming To Power" completely changed me as a young 20'something. I haven't re-read it recently, but I always felt it was sort of timeless.

PeonForHer -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 10:25:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious It goes back to what Hannah Lynn said before - we're more like a debating society than a community. Or a 'debating community'. [;)] Some time back I went to an academic conference, during which a bloke was giving a paper on the meaning of the word 'community'. It had become a buzzword by the time of Blair's government, and people were using it everywhere. The press pounced on it as well as academics (particularly in the social sciences). Blairites had come to love it because, in employing it, they could counter Thatcher's social atomism (cf 'There is no society . . .'), but without having to go all the way to talking about 'society' in any way that was redolent of the now hated word, 'socialism'. After many years following in the neoliberal hue, the Right came to love the word, too: it was sufficiently fluffy to articulate a kind of conservatism that was no longer Thatcherite, but didn't convey any idea of 'social engineering' (which has always been a horror to the right wing). But then everyone went kind of masturbatory over it. 'Community' came to be applied to any group that had any identifiably common characteristic whatsoever. Private Eye began a regular thread for people to send in their silly examples for a tenner ('The boot-wearing community' and 'bus-travelling community' were two of the more inane that I recall offhand.) Sociologists had traditionally spoken of the two types of human association, from Tonnies, of Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft. A 'community', the aforementioned bloke at the conference was arguing, once implied some sense of the former - that is a community in, roughly, the cosy, human-contact sense. For me, it's pretty evident that we have at least some of that 'Gemeinschaft' sense here, on CM. But what muddies the picture, as so often, is the fact that we're now in the brave new world of the interwebs. I've hardly met anyone from here and don't even really know what they look like. In contrast, I know the first names of plenty of people at my local pub, but don't know the first thing about their deeper views of life - as I do here, regarding quite a few people. Nonetheless, there's only a certain amount of mud I'm prepared to wade through. For me, the word 'community' has been hijacked too completely to be worth anything anymore. For 'community', you could now read 'group of people' or, re Tonnies, any 'association' of them. Too much of the debate is now just tiresome semantics. So, this is a long-winded way of my saying: Who cares? ;)

hausboy -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 10:35:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather quote: While I agree that expectations that some people perceive and associate with the idea of a 'bdsm community' can get greatly overblown, that's pretty much what prompted the thread, and is pretty much my reason for rejecting the idea of a bdsm community being anything but a convenient shorthand way of referring to us in general. it's a fucking easy phrase to use, as you said, less keystrokes, but essentially meaningless. Ron used to have a sigline that was a quote from Jack Rinella, who has written a lot of well-liked books about BDSM, etc. It started out with "There is no pope of rope......" He's in the area, maybe he'll drop by and post it for us :) Thanks windchymes! Jack Rinella is awesome!

Wolf2Bear -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 10:38:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather i'm not talking about this site. and as i pointed out before, just what is this bdsm we supposedly all share? Think of BDSM being an all encompassing umbrella for the kinky things we all enjoy and have incorporated into our lives. The specifics to how we, as individuals, is individualistic as our personalities, yet the commonality which draws us together...albeit loosely: "w"e are kinky folk "we" live an alternate way of life according to what we feel is best for ourselves "we" share a general interest in activities which is not widely accepted by main stream society. "we" gather at munches, dungeons, etc to be among others of our own kind. I could go on and on but that would be tiresome. The point is , we (in an overall sense) share a similar mindset, share a sense of belonging and share many values that bring us together. Just look at the majority of the regular posters who frequently and infrequently post on this site and on the other site. Now it seems to me that it is a sense of being among others of our ilk that draws us to return time and time again. We have formed friendships online and/or offline with many. It is that bond which draws us together. I do fully agree that this is not a community according to a dictionary's definition of what constitutes a community, yet in a metaphorical way I see how it can be. Understand that the English language is ever changing and always evolving and I see this as another example of how the actual definition of community has outgrown our familiar definitions.

hausboy -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 10:47:47 AM)
Could not agree more! Thanks Wolf2Bear!

Icarys -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 10:55:33 AM)
quote: Icy........you and I are our very own special sort of asshole. The kind that couldn't tolerate a community of assholes like us. You're probably right. [:D] I used to go around singing, on occasion, my own version of I'm an asshole to the tune of the old Dr.Pepper commercial...sometimes I'd substitute I'm a pecker in there as well. Found one on YouTube lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvCTaccEkMI

Wolf2Bear -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 10:55:34 AM)
You're welcome hausboy. What I am trying to get across and is safe to say, is we all need some sense of belonging; whether it's among our peers in everyday mundane life, in kink, in our local community etc. I am also presuming that everyone will understand that I am not attempting to place my views on them but simply offering another way of looking at this topic!

Icarys -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 11:02:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather what's confusing? well your continuing to argue a point that has fuck all to do with what i am talking about for one. and as to that particular post - well all of it.. quote: I mentioned earlier that we ALL don't share the same exact things. makes sense. quote: On a grander scale there are, I would wager, very huge group that share the commonalities but I don't think that's really important. makes no sense at all. it's gibberish. quote: Because community doesn't have to be specific. by the definition you provided it does. you can't seem to make up your mind. first you say there is a community because of the meaning given for the word, then you say that we don't have to follow those meanings. quote: As was pointed out, this is a social activity on large which is defined. more meaningless gibberish see what i mean, babbling. I AM sleepy now but crazy said what I meant better than I did. It seems a pretty simple concept. I would've thought you'd get it. You don't feel you belong? It's cool, it doesn't change anything for me. You're still here. Community hug for Hannah. I suspect you'll be like a few others here that raise their voices the loudest and as time creeps by, you'll slowly morph into what it is you rail against now.

MissImmortalPain -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 11:03:14 AM)
quote: "w"e are kinky folk "we" live an alternate way of life according to what we feel is best for ourselves "we" share a general interest in activities which is not widely accepted by main stream society. "we" gather at munches, dungeons, etc to be among others of our own kind. I could go on and on but that would be tiresome. Ok I was just going to let it go at this point, but now I can't. I find it funny that so many seem to have missed Hanna's point but oh well. I take issue with the above now. The idea of a common mindset. Because.... I am not kinky. There are just a lot of other people on the planet that are boring. Alternate way of life < accourding to who? If I live my life much as I was raised to live it does that mean it is not alternate to anything. I don't share a general interest with anyone without knowing what it is. For all I know you could be into some sick sh*t. Or for all you know I could be into things that would make you cry (and I don't mean in the nice way) I haven't been to a munch in five years and don't intend to go to one any time soon. And as many others pointed out, some never go to any and like it that way. And as to needing a sense of belonging well I have quoted him before and I will do it again now. "I refuse to be part of any group that would have someone like me as a member" - Groucho Marx ETA - to remove a type error.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 11:20:51 AM)
ok hausboy, here's the fucking deal ok donatien alphonse françois, marquis de sade (2 june 1740 – 2 december 1814) leopold ritter von sacher-masoch (27 january 1836 – 9 march 1895) people were doing this shit a long fucking time before the first leather dude pulled on his skins. you are confusing your experience for that of the fucking world. this is the last i'm going to say on the subject, if you want to debate the importance of the leather culture to the world of bdsm then start a thread to do that. it's not germane to the discussion here, and any attempt to claim that the leather movement is the bdsm world, or that it's history is the history of bdsm, or that it is in any way responsible for bdsm, or is its founder, or in any way the fountain head of kink is just sheer stupidity in the face of obvious reality, and it is beneath a person of your intelligence.

crazyml -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 11:27:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather no, sorry, as usual crazyml, it's really well argued and clear, Thanks quote: but also as usual, it's wrong. Great to see you continuing your well worn debating strategy here! quote: by your definition, you are part of the community of glasses wearing people, Nope, by your misunderstanding of my definition I'm part of the community of glasses wearing people. quote: a rather stupid idea, Yes, it is. quote: yet you have something in common with all the other fuckers who wear glasses. even if you were to insist that such a bespectacled community exists, it would be fucking ludicrous to expect them to behave in any given manner or to share any values based on their visually impaired condition. or people with teeth, is that a community? how about brunettes? or brown eyed people? or men? is there a male community? screw it, why not the living community, you, me, dogs, trees and fungi - we're alll alive, we have that in common. i would think a member of the living community would refrain from killing and eating other community members. see how fucking stupid the idea of a nebulous "must have something in common, but it doesn't have to be a great deal." is? So we agree all of that the examples above are absurd, but not really to the point because you've described things that people "are" (traits) rather than activities or choices. quote: bdsm, like the examples above, is to vague a thing to base a community on, the members of the supposed bdsm community cannot even agree what counts as bdsm and what doesn't. there can't be a community of "A" when none of the community members see "A" as the same thing. No, bdsm is not like the examples above, nor is it too vague to be used as a broad term to describe a group of people into kink/alternative lifestyles or "wiitwd" (as used by you - and just as absurd a grouping IMO). quote: you say it means any sort of kinkiness, That is what it means to me quote: but that isn't so. we regularly see people dismissing "bedroom submissives" or "mere kinksters" as not part of THE community, And the people that seek to make those distinctions are wrong. quote: and i'm sure that pedophiles don't fit into your community, but what they do sure as fuck is alternative and kinky. same with zoophiles, and necrophiles, and on and on. in order to make THE community include everybody into what could be called bdsm, it has to be defined in such a broad manner as to be utterly meaningless. [\quote] No, pedophiles don't fit into my notion of the bdsm community - which of course, supports my point rather doesn't it - You, despite your shouting, have a pretty clear idea of who I would place in and out of the community. quote: see? <no, you probably don't, but one remains hopeful> Yes, I really do see the point that you're making, and it is basically wrong. I even suspect that I can see the point that you're actually trying to make, and I have some sympathy for your POV. VC makes a really important point, which might actually be the point that you were originally trying to make. There's a distinction to be drawn between "The Community" - Which is a fantasy of some sort of coherent, stable, active uber-community and "The BDSM community" which is - as you yourself acknowledge - a way of grouping people together. When you say - "this isn't a community, there is no community, not online not offline, it's just a bunch of random people who like doing sick-ass shit to other people" You're wrong. If you say... There is no such thing as "The Community", not online, not offline...." You're right. Now of course, that may be what you meant to say all along - in which case the fault is yours in not expressing yourself properly in the first place.

Wolf2Bear -> RE: what fucking community? (8/13/2011 11:32:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain Ok I was just going to let it go at this point, but now I can't. I find it funny that so many seem to have missed Hanna's point but oh well. I take issue with the above now. The idea of a common mindset. Because.... I am not kinky. There are just a lot of other people on the planet that are boring. Alternate way of life < accourding to who? If I live my life much as I was raised to live it does that mean it is not alternate to anything. I don't share a general interest with anyone without knowing what it is. For all I know you could be into some sick sh*t. Or for all you know I could be into things that would make you cry (and I don't mean in the nice way) I haven't been to a munch in five years and don't intend to go to one any time soon. And as many others pointed out, some never go to any and like it that way. And as to needing a sense of belonging well I have quoted him before and I will do it again now. "I refuse to be part of any group that would have someone like me as a member" - Groucho Marx ETA - to remove a type error. It's not a case of me missing Hannah's point, it is me attempting to offer another concept that she may have not seen. I had hoped that after reading my post, that you would have understood that those example I gave were not the end all be all set in stone examples....just options in a general sense...NOT anything specific. Yes I do want to counteract what you posted in the above quotes but that would detract from Hannah's discussion. As I see it, it is rapidly getting too focused on semantics and moving away from the main topic. As I stated before...I am NOT absolutely defining anything for everyone, only offering an alternate view. I give thanks to Hannah for offering up a damn good debate, I will not remove myself from this discussion as I don't feel I have anything else to contribute to the topic. Be well.

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