quote:

This is something I have been struggling with lately, not over the position on homosexuality, but on a broader issue of good vs. evil.

I was born and raised Catholic, I wouldn't say I was devout, but I was happily Catholic and more or less believed. I never really questioned or bothered with the teachings to much, I'd just go to confession and do my penance and be on my way. However, recent events have caused me a crisis of faith. I have thought about it, prayed about it, and talked about it with my priest, the Archbishop, my parents, my grandparents. I have come to the conclusion that I simply cannot reconcile the idea of a loving and beneficent omnipotent Creator as taught by the Church with the events in my life. And so I have decided to renounce, not only the Church, but also my faith in God.

I don't know if God exists, but if He does, He is certainly not the kind and caring God we are taught about. Any God who could allow what happened to Valerie is not a God I could respect, let alone worship.

I hope you can find some answer that brings you peace, LadyP, and I'm certainly not going to argue with or urge you to follow my path, it is a painful and unpleasant process. That being said, I really do advise you to think long and carefully about the teachings of your church. Ask yourself honestly if the God your church or faith preaches is one who deserves your worship. I suspect that you will find He doesn't.

C.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Curious.... why would you renounce your faith in "god" based upon the actions and words of others?

Has "god" personally told you he was disappointed in you, that you are sinning, that you are wrong?

I have often wondered why people dont just start their own congregation. Base it upon the teachings of Jesus, and leave the rest behind.

Matthew 18:20. "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Deciding to not believe in something without proof, without facts, based just upon the opinions of others is just as perplexing as those who believe in something for the same reason.

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ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

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Curious.... why would you renounce your faith in "god" based upon the actions and words of others?

I answered that in my post.

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I have come to the conclusion that I simply cannot reconcile the idea of a loving and beneficent omnipotent Creator as taught by the Church with the events in my life.

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Any God who could allow what happened to Valerie is not a God I could respect, let alone worship.

I don't know if I believe in a God or not, but one way or another, I have no faith in any God.

God is supposed to be omnipotent, yet he allowed my friend to be senselessly slaughtered for no reason whatsoever. If He is indeed omnipotent, then that means He wanted it to happen. Why did He want to punish us all, why did He want to cause Valerie's family such horrendous pain? Why does he cause such pain and suffering to so many people across the world, surely they are not all so evil that they deserve to have their children slaughtered? Such things are NOT compatible with the concept of God as taught by the Christian religions. And since the events are indisputably real, it's the Christian God that must be false.

The fact that He made me a lesbian and has also damned me to eternal suffering for acting on the urges and desires He gave me is just further proof to me that the God professed by the Christian faith is not one I can worship or accept. To condemn me to a life of loneliness and solitude, or to expect me to refrain from any physical intimacy with those I love, is not the act of a kind and loving God, it is the act of a cruel and capricious God. So if He exists, I reject Him and all He stands for.

I don't know if I am an atheist or not, I am still thinking about that, but what I do know is that I don't believe in the Christian God. He is a lie. Perhaps, like ChatteP it's time for me to start reading the books and teachings of other religious traditions. Who knows, maybe I will end up a Hindu.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im not looking for an argument, just an exchange of ideas and thoughts.

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God is supposed to be omnipotent, yet he allowed my friend to be senselessly slaughtered for no reason whatsoever. If He is indeed omnipotent, then that means He wanted it to happen. Why did He want to punish us all, why did He want to cause Valerie's family such horrendous pain?

Do you really want a god deciding what you do or not do?

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Such things are NOT compatible with the concept of God as taught by the Christian religions. And since the events are indisputably real, it's the Christian God that must be false

I disagree under the basis of free will. If you know something is going to happen, but you promised to never interfer, do you?

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The fact that He made me a lesbian and has also damned me to eternal suffering for acting on the urges and desires He gave me is just further proof to me that the God professed by the Christian faith is not one I can worship or accept. To condemn me to a life of loneliness and solitude, or to expect me to refrain from any physical intimacy with those I love, is not the act of a kind and loving God, it is the act of a cruel and capricious God. So if He exists, I reject Him and all He stands for.

Has he damned you? Or were you told he has?

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I don't know if I am an atheist or not, I am still thinking about that, but what I do know is that I don't believe in the Christian God. He is a lie. Perhaps, like ChatteP it's time for me to start reading the books and teachings of other religious traditions. Who knows, maybe I will end up a Hindu.

I was raised by my parents as a christian.... by my grandparents to believe in "the circle of life" kinda deal (easiet way to explain it), so I have no issue with you not believing... I dont either. I do believe in a much higher power. But my nonbelief didnt come about as the result of what others did or did not tell me.

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ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

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Im not looking for an argument, just an exchange of ideas and thoughts.

I don't mind discussing it with you or anybody else, but I don't really think this is the appropriate thread to be holding this discussion in, as my reasons for my decision really aren't what LadyP was asking for. I will answer you here, but if you want to continue the discussion I think we should do so in a separate thread, so we don't derail and take over LadyP's thread.

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quote:

God is supposed to be omnipotent, yet he allowed my friend to be senselessly slaughtered for no reason whatsoever. If He is indeed omnipotent, then that means He wanted it to happen. Why did He want to punish us all, why did He want to cause Valerie's family such horrendous pain?

Do you really want a god deciding what you do or not do?

It is not a question of my wanting a God to decide or not, it is simply that as an omnipotent God, everything that happens is by His will, He wants it to happen otherwise He would prevent it. So He chose to allow her death and to cause us all such pain, and that just isn't something that I can reconcile with the idea of a just and loving God. Such a God simply would not do that to innocent people.

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Such things are NOT compatible with the concept of God as taught by the Christian religions. And since the events are indisputably real, it's the Christian God that must be false

I disagree under the basis of free will. If you know something is going to happen, but you promised to never interfer, do you?

He interferes again and again throughout the Bible, usually to smash and destroy somebody or something, He is constantly punishing people and demanding things from them, so this theory of free will and a a "hands off" God who is somehow bound by a divine Prime Directive simply doesn't coincide with the scriptural basis for the beliefs.

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quote:

The fact that He made me a lesbian and has also damned me to eternal suffering for acting on the urges and desires He gave me is just further proof to me that the God professed by the Christian faith is not one I can worship or accept. To condemn me to a life of loneliness and solitude, or to expect me to refrain from any physical intimacy with those I love, is not the act of a kind and loving God, it is the act of a cruel and capricious God. So if He exists, I reject Him and all He stands for.

Has he damned you? Or were you told he has?

It is in His laws. It is in His book. it is in the teachings of those that profess to follow Him.

As well, I can't reconcile the idea used to explain the presence of disease, suffering, etc. either. At some point at the dawn of time, two people broke a commandment of God's, so as a result all subsequent generations, who are completely innocent of the sinful deed, are condemned to a life of suffering and struggle and pain. This is not my idea of a "just" action, it is more an act of vengeance run wild, to punish all the descendants of those two for all eternity.

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quote:

I don't know if I am an atheist or not, I am still thinking about that, but what I do know is that I don't believe in the Christian God. He is a lie. Perhaps, like ChatteP it's time for me to start reading the books and teachings of other religious traditions. Who knows, maybe I will end up a Hindu.

I was raised by my parents as a christian.... by my grandparents to believe in "the circle of life" kinda deal (easiet way to explain it), so I have no issue with you not believing... I dont either. I do believe in a much higher power. But my nonbelief didnt come about as the result of what others did or did not tell me.

Valerie's murder was the catalyst that started me doubting and questioning, as I said I have spent a lot of time thinking, praying, and talking about these issues. It has not been a pleasant or comfortable process, nor have my decisions been reached lightly. And as I have said, I don't know if I believe in A God or not, I just don't believe in THAT God.

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ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

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ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
This is something I have been struggling with lately, not over the position on homosexuality, but on a broader issue of good vs. evil.

I was born and raised Catholic, I wouldn't say I was devout, but I was happily Catholic and more or less believed....

So your problem isn't with God per se, but with the human-invented dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. That's a different issue entirely.

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ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

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ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
The fact that He made me a lesbian and has also damned me to eternal suffering for acting on the urges and desires He gave me is just further proof to me that the God professed by the Christian faith is not one I can worship or accept. To condemn me to a life of loneliness and solitude, or to expect me to refrain from any physical intimacy with those I love, is not the act of a kind and loving God, it is the act of a cruel and capricious God. So if He exists, I reject Him and all He stands for.

IMO, God created you a lesbian just like God created me a heterosexual male. And, if you pardon the bad joke, we could probably become good friends because we have something in common – we both like women.

However, God did not "damn" you. The Roman Catholic Church dogma you were raised in "damned" you, individuals who sanctimoniously assume they know better than anyone else what God thinks "damned" you, and possibly you may be "damning" yourself, based on those human-created dogmas of the Church you were raised in. As a child, you were brain-washed to believe something that humans created, not something created by God - that being anything other than heterosexual was evil. Naturally you would have a hard time rejecting years of conditioning. I'm poly - and it took a long time for me to overcome the feeling that loving more than one woman at the same time was "wrong". I had to fight years of societal conditioning and well-intentioned brainwashing.

My youngest child is transgendered. Biologically born a girl, Patrick now lives his life as a man. Individuals may "damn" him, organized churches may "damn" him but I do not - and I do not believe God is "damning" him either.

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ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

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ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

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So your problem isn't with God per se, but with the human-invented dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

No it's not, it's with the whole concept of God as seen by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Read all of her post and her replies to tazzy.

Get a Bible, one in which every word reported to have been said by Jesus Christ is printed in a different color (usually Red)

Read every word printed in that different color - and see if Jesus Christ said you are damned if you were born homosexual (or that ministers, priests or pastors must be celibate [a Roman Catholic dogma] or that unmarried couples of opposite genders cannot dance together [a Baptist dogma], and so on).

Any teaching of any organized church group that is not based on those words printed in that different color does not come from God or from Jesus Christ - they are dogma invented and created by men and women - some well-meaning, good intentioned men and women and some authoritarian control freak men and women who get an orgasm by forcing others to follow their rules (like a bad Dom or Domme).

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

He interferes again and again throughout the Bible, usually to smash and destroy somebody or something, He is constantly punishing people and demanding things from them, so this theory of free will and a a "hands off" God who is somehow bound by a divine Prime Directive simply doesn't coincide with the scriptural basis for the beliefs.

The bible, to me, is a beautifully wriiten story... not much more than that. Some facts are tossed in among some of the stories that were handed down first by word of mouth then to written form, transcribed into other languages, then dictated by the powers in charge.

I dont believe god turns someone into a pillar of salt, for example. I bet if there were a god, he would laugh at that one as much as I do.

Much of the bible was written to guide the morality of the times. A burning bush that talks? I dont have much faith in that either. The parting of the red sea is now known to have been a natural phenomenon ... some of the stories were written/told to explain things to the masses that they couldnt explain themselves.

Yes, I do have a cynical view of the Bible.... I dont about Jesus... go figure... lol. Again, the Bible is a great story... just that, written by man, for man, about things man could not explain. I do believe there was a Jesus who was a carpenter who was also a great teacher to many, giving hope to the masses. I also believe in his messages. That is where I concentrate. The figure jesus crosses into too many other religions for me to discount him.

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It is in His laws. It is in His book. it is in the teachings of those that profess to follow Him.

As well, I can't reconcile the idea used to explain the presence of disease, suffering, etc. either. At some point at the dawn of time, two people broke a commandment of God's, so as a result all subsequent generations, who are completely innocent of the sinful deed, are condemned to a life of suffering and struggle and pain. This is not my idea of a "just" action, it is more an act of vengeance run wild, to punish all the descendants of those two for all eternity.

See above.

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Valerie's murder was the catalyst that started me doubting and questioning, as I said I have spent a lot of time thinking, praying, and talking about these issues. It has not been a pleasant or comfortable process, nor have my decisions been reached lightly. And as I have said, I don't know if I believe in A God or not, I just don't believe in THAT God.

Valerie's murder was a tragedy, no doubt about it.. for her family as well as her friends. But it was an act of a person... I dont believe god is as the Bible describes him to be.

Perhaps that should be your journey... discovering the truth in that regard?

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ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

In LadyPact's "A personal struggle" thread, I relayed how I have recently come to renounce Christianity. Oddly this seemed of enough interest to some people for them to sidetrack her thread to discuss and dispute my apostasy, despite my request that they not do so on her thread.

I have no problem discussing my rejection of Christianity and the Judeo-Christian God, if people are so inclined, howecer I will not  do so on that thread as it is not the topic of that thread, so since those who were interested refused to do so, I am starting this thread so those who are interested may do so.
I will be copy/pasting the discussion so far, so that none will be left out of the loop.

Here is my original  posting:

quote:

This is something I have been struggling with lately, not over the position on homosexuality, but on a broader issue of good vs. evil.

I was born and raised Catholic, I wouldn't say I was devout, but I was happily Catholic and more or less believed. I never really questioned or bothered with the teachings to much, I'd just go to confession and do my penance and be on my way. However, recent events have caused me a crisis of faith. I have thought about it, prayed about it, and talked about it with my priest, the Archbishop, my parents, my grandparents. I have come to the conclusion that I simply cannot reconcile the idea of a loving and beneficent omnipotent Creator as taught by the Church with the events in my life. And so I have decided to renounce, not only the Church, but also my faith in God.

I don't know if God exists, but if He does, He is certainly not the kind and caring God we are taught about. Any God who could allow what happened to Valerie is not a God I could respect, let alone worship.

I hope you can find some answer that brings you peace, LadyP, and I'm certainly not going to argue with or urge you to follow my path, it is a painful and unpleasant process. That being said, I really do advise you to think long and carefully about the teachings of your church. Ask yourself honestly if the God your church or faith preaches is one who deserves your worship. I suspect that you will find He doesn't.

C.

quote:

I dont believe god is as the Bible describes him to be.

Perhaps that should be your journey... discovering the truth in that regard?

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The figure jesus crosses into too many other religions for me to discount him.

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I lost my faith when I started to question things in religion class and the only answers I received were you just have to believe.

I just found it hypocritical. In every other class you were taught that valid proof was needed, but in fantasyland you didn't need that.