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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:01:07 AM

DompairWantsubf

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Thank you very much for the warm welcome, always nice to find warm people. And there are times when a little bravery seeps out lol. And isn't lavey a handsome individual? Stumped as to why he wasn't the brad pitt of his era. And this is quite the thread, Highly informative and educational in some ways.Glad it's going smooth. Once again, Thanks for the warm welcome.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:03:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes
I categorically state: "The Judeo-Xtian God does NOT exist." No belief there. Plain and simple. Okay?

P.S. Can't make me prove a negative - don't even ask.

Oh, for goodness sake. That is exactly why it is a BELIEF (because you think it's true but can't prove it.)

pam

Grin, I envy you your clarity where it comes to the definition of "BELIEF"

I really, really struggle with the words think, believe, and know.

I believe X is true
I think X is true
I know X is true

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:10:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
I'm afraid that just isn't so, please refer to the following link: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/atheist where the definition is as follows:

quote:

a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods
Giving a word a new meaning and citing a source that contradicts your new definition renders your entire argument irrelevant and to be honest, ridiculous. Now either find me a source that actually backs up your assertion or stop pestering me with false semantics. My use of the word IS correct.

You've just supplied a definition that perfectly satisfies

quote:

To the question "Does God exist?" there are three possible answers:
A- To say yes.
B- To say no.
C- Not to say either yes or no. For whatever reason: You don't know or you don't think that the question makes sense, or whatever.

Strong Atheist take B.
Weak Atheist take C.
Atheist are (according to the Oxford dictionary) both the ones who take B, as the ones who take C.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:12:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Grin, I envy you your clarity where it comes to the definition of "BELIEF"

I really, really struggle with the words think, believe, and know.

I believe X is true
I think X is true
I know X is true

It's pretty easy, actually. As far as i'm concerned, there's virtually nothing in the "i know" category.

pam

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:13:39 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
I'm afraid that just isn't so, please refer to the following link: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/atheist where the definition is as follows:

quote:

a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods

You are quoting the dictionary saying exactly what I said it says.

a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods
= a person who does not say "I believe in God"
= a person who does not choose A
= a person who chooses B or C

"Does not believe that is exist" is not the same as "believe that it does not exist". This is exactly what I explained to you with all detail. Not taking A is not the same as taking B.

I explained you exactly why, but you decide not to learn, and to attack and insult instead, losing any respect.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/12/2011 2:22:39 AM >

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:14:24 AM

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Oh I'm with you there!

But, wouldn't you acknowledge that the distinctions between those words is pretty gnarly?

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:15:45 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
I'm afraid that just isn't so, please refer to the following link: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/atheist where the definition is as follows:

quote:

a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods
Giving a word a new meaning and citing a source that contradicts your new definition renders your entire argument irrelevant and to be honest, ridiculous. Now either find me a source that actually backs up your assertion or stop pestering me with false semantics. My use of the word IS correct.

You've just supplied a definition that perfectly satisfies

quote:

To the question "Does God exist?" there are three possible answers:
A- To say yes.
B- To say no.
C- Not to say either yes or no. For whatever reason: You don't know or you don't think that the question makes sense, or whatever.

Strong Atheist take B.
Weak Atheist take C.
Atheist are (according to the Oxford dictionary) both the ones who take B, as the ones who take C.

Exactly. I am astonished.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/12/2011 2:45:02 AM >

(in reply to crazyml)

RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:16:29 AM

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Hey - SMM, stick with it.

Remember, if you feel frustrated with someone's point of view in a debate, the chances are they're feeling equally frustrated with yours. You just have to both be willing to whittle it down till you both understand the other's POV.

[ED to ADD]

Don't get me wrong, I've done plenty of losing my sense of humour on these boards... but let's just see if this approach works?

< Message edited by crazyml -- 10/12/2011 2:19:12 AM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:18:07 AM

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Let me challenge you to edit this down... let me challenge you to stay engaged, and good humoured.

I bet you can!

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:18:29 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

You've just supplied a definition that perfectly satisfies

OK, it's 5 in the morning here, and I just don't see it, could you maybe explain how? I honestly don't see how

quote:

C- Not to say either yes or no. For whatever reason: You don't know or you don't think that the question makes sense, or whatever.

is compatible with

quote:

a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods

which is why I have been using the term "irreligious" to describe a complete lack of belief one way or another.

(in reply to crazyml)

RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:21:50 AM

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For me, "i believe" and "i think" are exactly the same. When i say "i know" i'm perfectly sensible that i'm stretching the truth a bit, because it sounds better than saying, "i believe really, really strongly". No, i don't think the distinction between them is blurry at all. i just think sometimes we kid ourselves about what we really know.

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 10/12/2011 2:23:24 AM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:22:10 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
is compatible with
quote:

a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods

Exactly. And as B is also compatible, this is the reason why Atheist are both the ones who choose B, as the ones who choose C, in English. And this the reason why not all Atheist choose B = not all Atheist deny the existence of God. They simply do not affirm it. And this is exactly what i was saying all along.

Not saying "yes", is not the same as saying "no".

So, again, Heather - maybe you now see that there is no error here? New in blue.

quote:

To the question "Does God exist?" there are three possible answers:
A- To say yes.
B- To say no.
C- Not to say either yes or no. For whatever reason: You don't know or you don't think that the question makes sense, or whatever.

Atheist
= (Oxford) a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods
= a person who does not say "I believe in God"
= a person who does not choose A
= a person who chooses B or C
(not the same as) a person who chooses C

Strong Atheist take B.
Weak Atheist take C.
Atheist are (according to the Oxford dictionary) both the ones who take B, as the ones who take C.

To believe in God, is to take the option A.
Not to believe in God, is not to take the option A.
Thus, not to believe in God is exactly, being Atheist. as both people who take B as people who take C, are not taking A.

To believe that there is no God, is to take the option B.
Thus, not every person who is Atheist (Oxford says) believes that there is no God (takes B). Some of them take C.

This is the reason of the need to separate, in English, between strong and weak atheism, which takes many names, from Marx (positive / negative) to the current tendencies (strong Atheist vs. Agnostic).

Classic samples of B and C are...
"God is absurd, therefore it cannot exist" => B
"There is no proof of God, therefore I must think that He does not exist until proven otherwise" => B
"There is no proof of God, but also none that He does not exist, so nobody really knows" => C
"The question makes no sense, therefore it cannot be answered logically with yes or no" => C
"What the f**k are you speaking about? Let us speak about titties! I do not care about that!" => C

Ok?

And do not disrepect me again, ok?
Then I remain here. I really want you to understand. But I am not ready to accept lacks of respect.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/12/2011 2:33:11 AM >

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:22:13 AM

HannahLynHeather

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quote:

Glad it's going smooth.

that's probably because i stayed the fuck out of it.

actually i argued with her here and got nowhere in a fucking hurry, i think the clever little slut is right.

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(in reply to DompairWantsubf)

RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:32:49 AM

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Hey SMM... see what's happening here? Heather's coming back to do some whittling, in a sensible, good natured way - despite it being 5 am. So if she's willing to make that effort, I should make an effort to reply, don't you think?

So Heather (now I know I'm middle aged, because my first reaction was to say "well get to bed young lady")...

We've go the definition that you schnuffled from the dictionary -

"a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods"

And we've got these propositions (which isn't an exact replica of the A/B/C options but I think - and correct me if I'm wrong - the propositions are a fair map.

A - God exists
B - God does not exist
C - I neither believe nor disbelieve in the existence of god

l've butchered the last one because it introduces complicating factors like "I don't understand the question".

A cannot be an Atheist. Someone who says "God exist is NOT a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods"
B Is a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods.
C Is a person who does does not believe in the existence of God or gods.

As I whittered on about earlier - My (perhaps stupidly simplistic) definition of "Atheist" is narrower (not 'better'))...

So in my view an atheist is someone who believes that god does not exist. And agnostic is someone who does not believe that god exists, and does not believe that god does not exist.

So for me..

A - Theist
B - Atheist
C - Agnostic

But that's because my definition is, according to the dictionary and a large body of philosophers, wrong.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:35:43 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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crazy:

I have been editing my answer as well. It was softened. I am making the effort too.
Your definitions are Spanish :)
DRAE: "El que niega la existencia de Dios".

In Spanish, C is no Atheist at all. That's the reason why English needs this sepparation between hard and weak. I consider this unfortunate in the English language.

(in reply to crazyml)

RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:52:20 AM

hardcybermaster

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lots of people getting their dictionaries out so I will do the same
Atheism is the theory or belief that god does not exist
religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal god or gods
Atheism is a religion?
the theory or belief that god does not exist is the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal god or gods
doesn't really follow does it?
atheism is a belief about religion not a religion in itself.

Anyway this all started cos a bunch of cons realised that the religous cons were getting stuff cos they were religous and thought to themselves, shit! we want some of that action and took it to court and the court had a think and said yeah, you should have some of that action too. The easiest way of doing it was to say atheism is a religion

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:53:34 AM

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FUCK!!!!! My post got erased. Let's try this again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
1. The lack of belief is not a belief. It is a lack, not a belief. It is not "the opposite" (the opposite of a lack is a presence, not a belief), it is another category of things.

Exactly. That is why not having an opinion whether god exists... is not a "religious belief".

Therefore, Atheism, as it being lack of belief...

Atheism is NOT a lack of belief. It is the belief that god does not exist. Whether you believe that god exists or you believe that he does not, in either case, you are still believing SOMETHING. In other words, you're having faith that something is so, even you can't prove it. That's called "believing", and what you have faith in is called your "belief".

2. Therefore, Atheism... cannot be considered, nor a religious belief, nor a religion. BTW in Spanish, this is no the case, in Spanish Atheism is a belief...

i hate to break this to you, but it is in English too.

3. By the other side, strong Atheism (that is, the belief that there is no God)...

Just so you know, this is what the rest of us are referring to when we simply say "atheism".

is a belief related to religion. Does it make it a "religious belief"? Possibly.

Not possibly. Definitely.

Open to discussion, for me. Partially a matter of language... a pie made by a French is automatically a French pie? a bridge over a river is a river bridge? I think that Atheism works like the first, but the discussion on why (added connotations or meanings though the combination) is highly subjective.

No. A religious belief is a belief about religion, just as a political belief is a belief about politics, and a scientific belief is a belief about science. Unless you're claiming that all three of those terms are "open to discussion", it makes no sense to claim the first is. Do you have any doubt that the term "political belief" means a belief (any belief) about politics?

4. Religion is not the same as religious belief. They are not synonims.

True. Please see post #68 for my opinion on which of those two the courts MEANT.

5. A religion is caracterized by many aspects: Beliefs about the supernatural; cosmology; theology; rituals; priest hierarchy and morality. I may be loosing some. A religion does not have to have ALL of these, but the less it has, the less of a religion it is. Consider here daoism, buddism, deism, which "score" differently in all these aspects.

6. Even if strong Atheism were a religious belief, it would not be a religion, as it has only one, of ony one of the aspects. It has no morality, cosmology, rituals, hierarchy or belief on the supernatural (nor does it exclude any). It only has one single point on theology: There is no God. This is not enough to qualify as religion.

i will happily concede that atheism is NOT a religion, at least not in the strict sense of the word. It is, however, a religious belief.

7. From the legal point of view, it can be positive to call it a religion...

Yes. From the legal point of view, the court is interpreting the 1st Amendment, which says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." In this context, they are interpreting the term "religion" in the broader sense of "religious belief", which includes atheism.

8. Both strong Atheism as any other belief, can be right or wrong, rational or not, justified or not. This does not change the previous points.

Obviously any belief can be right or wrong.

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 10/12/2011 2:55:08 AM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:55:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Top quality thread.

I agree!

quote:

"Atheism is a religious belief" - Totally nails it. Atheism is a belief that relates directly to religion.

And.. I disagree. Before the word 'religion' was coined, there were people who did not believe in the existance of 'god'. It's putting the cart before the horse. Atheism in ancient vernacular meant 'godless'. As language evolves, meanings do change so what it means 'now' is not what it always meant.

I'm all for evolution however so that said, even as language evolves it's by no means a universal evolution. For example.. the word 'religion' does not exist in Hebrew, so no evolution of the word there at all. It simply does not exist. The closest you can get to 'religion' is the word 'law'.. religion would be a set of laws which the believers (should) follow.

So, my disagreement stems from the etymology of the words we use and the evolution of those words. Atheism is a disbelief that relates only to theology, not religion. Follow the 'laws' of your chosen deity and I'd call you religious. Atheists have no laws to follow so I would not call them religious.

My two cents at (almost) 3 AM.

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Rock, paper, scissors."

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 2:56:36 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

And do not disrepect me again, ok?

I'll show you some respect you when you start showing some respect to me and stop preaching to me. I tend to disregard people when they do that. If I don't "understand" your point, it is NOT because I don't have the slightest intention of understanding, its because either you haven't explained your point adequately or it is incorrect.

You keep saying the same thing over and over, it didn't make sense the first time so it still won't the tenth time. This isn't the first thread you've tried unsuccessfully to make this point on. Explain yourself differently. You are arguing extremely fine points of semantics, and no insult, but I am very certain you are mistaken. Your option C does NOT, by my understanding of the English language, fit within the definition of atheism you provided.

Your option C fits either "irreligious" <in the sense of being indifferent to all matters religious>, or agnostic <meaning that it is not knowable>.
Atheism <doesn't exist>, agnosticism <can't know>, and irreligiousness <no opinion> could all be considered forms of non-theistic viewpoints, but they are not the same at all, and "atheist" and "non-theist" are not synonyms. They are related concepts, but not the same. Atheism is a subset of non-theist thought, not the other way around.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/12/2011 3:04:19 AM

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You know, it's a little irritating that there are people on this board that can demonstrate higher levels of mental acuity at 5 am or three am than I can summon at 11 am.

Just sayin.

I did qualify my agreement, and i've snipped the most relevant bit...

quote:

when someone says "Religion" to me, I think of a lot of things - doctrine, dogma, rituals, hierarchy etc. So I think that to generally boil the idea of a "religion" down to just the belief or non-belief in god isn't that helpful - not least because there's already a word for that - "Theism".

That said, the court has to try to nail the intention of the right and seems to have interpreted religion in a permissive way - concluding that religion relates to thinking about god/gods. Atheism certainly involves thinking about god/gods so I think it's done a reasonable job in doing so.

So I think my instinctive definition of "Religion" seems quite close to yours..

You say "Follow the 'laws' of your chosen deity and I'd call you religious" and I say "doctrine, dogma, rituals, hierarchy etc."

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