RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 10:23:05 PM

gungadin09

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrazyCats
The definition applied by the courts is the fastest way to grant immediate protection and equality to a group of people that do not practice any religion.

i believe the court decided atheism and irreligion SHOULD be protected, and then interpreted the language to mean exactly that. And while i agree with the verdict, it makes me nervous to see them bend the meaning of words to suit their own needs. After all, they are supposed to interpret the law, not re-write it. How would you define the term "religion" (in a legal context)? Do you think the court was right to include strong atheism and irreligion under the term "religion"? If you say yes, is that because the Constitution actually says that, or because it should? If you say no, what do you think the court should have done instead?

pam

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/28/2011 11:10:43 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

i believe the court decided atheism and irreligion SHOULD be protected, and then interpreted the language to mean exactly that. And while i agree with the verdict, it makes me nervous to see them bend the meaning of words to suit their own needs. After all, they are supposed to interpret the law, not re-write it. How would you define the term "religion" (in a legal context)? Do you think the court was right to include strong atheism and irreligion under the term "religion"? If you say yes, is that because the Constitution actually says that, or because it should? If you say no, what do you think the court should have done instead?

pam

I do not recall the court using the term "irreligion" did anyone save that case

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/29/2011 12:16:16 AM

Real0ne

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the point I am trying to make here is that the constitution protects religion not irreligion, if by irreligion it means no religion.

It cannot protect both religion and no religion at the same time.

The court simply determined that atheism is or can be a religion.

I stated the core requirements MANY times.

I do not believe the court would have used the term irreligion and that is someones contravance.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/29/2011 1:09:22 AM

crazyml

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrazyCats
The definitions of atheism and agnosticism that I have used for most of my life are explained here: I'm being lazy and not typing!

Quoted because that is one of the most intelligent explanations I've seen for a long old time, thanks for posting it

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/29/2011 1:48:31 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrazyCats
The definitions of atheism and agnosticism that I have used for most of my life are explained here: I'm being lazy and not typing!

Quoted because that is one of the most intelligent explanations I've seen for a long old time, thanks for posting it

It is intelligent and well written. I still disagree. "I don't disbelieve" is not "I believe", this is playing with the words, as in Spanish "No entiendo nada" would mean "Entiendo algo". In the natural language, double negation is not the same as affirmation.
The classification he is proposing is, in some mean, useful, but not so useful and not so simple as the one I use, IMHO. "Theist agnostics"... well, if somebody says that he believes in God, he is saying that he thinks that God exists, and this means, that he things that God exists, and he knows this fact (that God exists). He says it, and it is true (he thinks)... so he knows the truth about it. It is knowledge.
Because of this two errors, and also because he breaks with the definition of the first and most important philosopher who introduced the term "agnostic" (Thomas Henry Huxley), I discard his classification and stick to mine. It is simpler.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/29/2011 6:33:13 AM

AeonLux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Well again, "To Believe" has nothing to do with collecting, perfume or otherwise.

"To Believe" is an action and specific requirement of integrating the philosophy and results of ones choices into a "set of Beliefs" which is used to govern the self and that makes up ones "religion" as the other guy said. (see the blue underlining)

See, "To collect" is not part of any process resulting in religion et al.

Now you used the example of not knowing, then you go down to not believing at which point you made a determination. No determination is still Godless, and an atheist however and whatever set of constructs you use to govern yourself is your religion.

If "collecting" various things is a hobby, an activity, an action, then not collecting them is what? My not collecting stamps doesn't make it "hobby." There's no activity or action there.

You didn't answer my question. Is not believing in Zeus or, say, the Greek pantheon a religious conviction? What if I don't believe in Jedi Magic and The Force? That is technically ajediism. Is that a religion or philosophy? What sort of belief set or philosophy is included apart from simply lacking belief in such claims? I also take that not believing in various other fanciful, mythical and mythological claims and concepts also make for a religion? So, if one believes in the existence of some super secret vampire species because they've "seen" or been exposed to these vampires and yet I lack belief for whatever reason, I'm exercising a religious belief or my position is that similar to a "philosophy"? Doesn't follow.

I lack belief in a wide variety of metaphysical and fantastical claims. I call bullshit that my lack of belief in such claims makes for a "religion." That lack of belief includes a wide variety of deity characters found in ancient mythos and a host of other fanciful and mythical characters.

Do you believe in all metaphysical and fantastical claims? So, if one were to posit the existence of vampires you'd accept or reject that claim? If you reject said claim, is your rejection weak (simply lack of belief) or strong (asserting to the nonexistence of vampires). There's just as much proof for vampires as there is deities. All claims, motifs, themes, etc., are sourced out of various writings. It isn't any more irrational or illogical to believe in vampires than deities.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/29/2011 6:42:53 AM

AeonLux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

I am not so sure that is the case.

godless is also a variant to atheist.

Your kids if having no exposure made no conscious determination for themselves, so as I said over 30 pages ago, people falling into that category would be an atheist as they are Godless, which is not the same as religion less.

IN as much as the strong weak thang it can only be legitimately used to quantify, not qualify.

Being "godless" is the etymological definition of "atheist." It is one who is without a god or godless. It is the default, weak position, as stated before. A conscious choice has to be made to either accept or reject a claim. Since they have not been presented a formal claim they have no reason to consciously accept or reject such claim(s). It is for this reason their lack of belief is implicit and weak.

Perhaps it's futile, this discourse, because I won't ever, have never, seen lacking belief in fantastical and metaphysical claims as a "philosophy" or "religion."

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/29/2011 9:19:44 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AeonLux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

I am not so sure that is the case.

godless is also a variant to atheist.

Your kids if having no exposure made no conscious determination for themselves, so as I said over 30 pages ago, people falling into that category would be an atheist as they are Godless, which is not the same as religion less.

IN as much as the strong weak thang it can only be legitimately used to quantify, not qualify.

Being "godless" is the etymological definition of "atheist." It is one who is without a god or godless. It is the default, weak position, as stated before. A conscious choice has to be made to either accept or reject a claim. Since they have not been presented a formal claim they have no reason to consciously accept or reject such claim(s). It is for this reason their lack of belief is implicit and weak.

Perhaps it's futile, this discourse, because I won't ever, have never, seen lacking belief in fantastical and metaphysical claims as a "philosophy" or "religion."

well thats sorta yes and sorta no.

the only way an onlooker can understand if it is a religion or not is to examine the substantive elements of the process.

If this person somehow figured out that "thou shalt not murder" is a good thing, (and most philosophically ignorant people have figured that out, at least within their own tribe), then it is safe to say that is a part of that persons religion, even though they were not presented with it in a "standardized" philosophical manner.

You have thesis, antithesis, and no thesis

Since we all think, I do not see "no thesis" as possible when referencing the word "belief".

You have believe in God, with God
You have not believe in God, without God = atheism
You have no knowledge of God, without God = atheism

No knowledge = no conscious decision = atheist = without God but is != no religion since religion is a several step process.

Concept to mental determination to acceptance to action.

That is your free will.

You conscientiously examine some concept,
you make a determination if it is good bad for you,
you accept that determination,
you have faith that your determination is correct,
you govern yourself based on your determination.

That is the foundation your "personal" religion, not some deMOBcracy approved religion.

Now we can add all kinds of qualifiers, and quantifiers, and all sorts of colorful variants but that is the core "process requirements" to get from concept to religion put very simply.

That is your religion and also part of your free will.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/29/2011 9:36:21 PM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/29/2011 11:55:36 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Concept to mental determination to acceptance to action.

What you are defining is called an "opinion," not a religion.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/30/2011 12:01:21 AM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/30/2011 1:14:47 AM

geilematz

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one needs to love the science of advanced hair-splitting to feel comfortable with all this
I feel fine - to turn back to the beginning of this thread - when a court gives equal rights to atheists as well as theists
of course the manner how they argued to do this is rubbish worthy of the Grand Academy of Lagado (if unfamiliar read Swift's Gulliver's Travel unabridged version)
that the text they referred to is partial in favour of religion has understandable historical reasons but that does not change its being partial

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/30/2011 1:29:53 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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Servus!

quote:

ORIGINAL: geilematz

one needs to love the science of advanced hair-splitting to feel comfortable with all this
I feel fine - to turn back to the beginning of this thread - when a court gives equal rights to atheists as well as theists
of course the manner how they argued to do this is rubbish worthy of the Grand Academy of Lagado (if unfamiliar read Swift's Gulliver's Travel unabridged version)
that the text they referred to is partial in favour of religion has understandable historical reasons but that does not change its being partial

If you read the real opinion, as a whole, you will see that the Court was only trying to give him the same rights: http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/tmp/CK1FF40E.pdf .
Someone quoted a single sentence isolating it from it context and ignoring all the other sentences of the opinion expressed by the court.
For example:

quote:

The problem here was that the prison officials did not treat atheism as a “religion,” perhaps in keeping with Kaufman’s own insistence that it is the antithesis of religion. But whether atheism is a “religion” for First Amendment purposes is a somewhat different question than whether its adherents believe in a supreme being, or attend regular devotional services, or have a sacred Scripture.

So, they were speaking in a context. "A religion for First Amendment", and not "a religion" (trying to redefine language).
Das wär's...

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/30/2011 1:45:40 AM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/30/2011 1:34:48 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Concept to mental determination to acceptance to action.

What you are defining is called an "opinion," not a religion.

K.

I disagree and since I cannot read your mind I will have to stick with my aforesaid assessment as correct.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/30/2011 1:47:30 AM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/30/2011 1:40:41 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geilematz

one needs to love the science of advanced hair-splitting to feel comfortable with all this

yep and its what courts do.

By the time they are done fucking around they can make yes no and black white.

The whole english language needs to be restructured based on its linguistic its roots and dictionaries should not be allowed to quote common usage and be called a dictionary, because they are nothing urban slang for the most part.

The latest abortion is the word "terrorism".

They made such a stink about it the international community cant find a crime to attach to it that has not already been defined under 5 other words. aint life a bitch.

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