RE: The Transgender Thread (Full Version)

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OttersSwim -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 6:48:53 AM)

So I wanted to share this piece.  It is written by a transgendered blogger named Littlelight and it was done back in 2007.  It is one of my "mantra" pieces - things that I read when I am feeling down about being transgendered.

The seam of skin and scale - by LittleLight, 2007

I am not a woman trapped in a man's body. This body is no man's; it is mine, it is me, and there is no man in that equation. And I am not trapped in it. There are a million and one ways out of this body, and I have clung to it, tooth and claw, despite an endless line of people and institutions who would rather I vacate the premises, and have sometimes been willing to make me bleed to convince me they're right.

This body is mine, and I claim it and its bruises, and it is not a man's, and I am not trapped here. I have looked leaving my body in the eye and I have said, in the end, hell no. There is too much to do, too much to love, too many who need one more of us to say hell no and help them say the same.
You might not like it. It might be a wrongness to you.

I am done with traps. I am done with the philosophy of traps, and I am done with the feminism of who owns my body for what cause.
It is time for something that tells you that I am here for blood--my blood, the blood of my loved ones, the blood of the people who have battered themselves against my life and found me still here.

It is time for a feminism of the monstrous.

That is this body. That is this me. That is the voice that says get your names off of my parts and your hands off them too, that says stop colonizing my reality and telling me what I mean without listening to a word I say.

What I say may be in a language incomprehensible, but there is a time for that, and it is right now, because this is a monster's creed. It is for the cobbled-together, the sewn-up, the grafted-on. It is for the golden, the under-the-earth, the foreign, the travels-by-night; the filthy ship-sinking cave-dwelling bone-cracking gorgeousness that says hell no, I am not tidy. I am not easy. I am not what you suppose me to be and until you listen to my voice and look me in my eyes, I will cling fast to this life no matter how far you drive me, how deep, with how many torches and pitchforks, biting back the whole way down. I will not give you my suicide. I will not give you my surrender.

This is for the Lilim, because you forget that the next part after your co-opted icon parts ways with Adam and goes her own way is and she begat monsters, and she becomes terrifying. This is for the Gorgons and the vampires and the chimaeras, for Cybele and Baba Yaga, Hel and Ashtoreth, for Lamia and Scylla, for Kali and Kapo 'ula-kina'u. This is for all of them with teeth.

It is time to look the monstrous in the eye. It is time. It is time to say that we are beautiful in our fierceness, and that we are our own. We are not the rejected of what we can never be. We are what we were meant to be. We are not pieces of wholes thrown together incorrectly.

We are not mistakes.  We are not inferior knockoffs of someone else.

If our monstrousness is frightening, then it is time we bare our teeth and draw that fear close to us and stop being so afraid of our fearsomeness that we fear everyone and everything else right back.

I am throwing my head back, here, and saying it: no more being afraid. Hell no. My monstrousness is not a place of shame. It is a strength. It is the power to say I am mine, and I will tell you what I mean. Not you. I am not any thing trapped in anyone's body. I am tougher than that, and I have plenty of blood to spare in this body of mine, and plenty more miles to go before any of you can bring me to my knees, and I dare you to try.

I am choosing to stay here, and it is mine to choose. And if that means changing shape, if that means putting together the unexpected, that is any monster's ancient right. It is damn well traditional.
The only ones setting traps are the ones in our way.

There. There's my teeth. There's my cause.

Boo.
Hiss.
Keep kicking: a thousand, thousand slimy things lived on.
And so.
Did. I.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 7:33:28 AM)

Thanks, Otters!!

If you want your head exploded with the latest in transgender stuff...go to Fetl. Be prepared to be SAVAGED for your language. There is a whole world of stuff happening in some areas that is so alien to my experiences, and so hostile to anyone who isn't IN, that I am having a hard time learning it all. It's kind of like when I found out that "Feminist" had acquired new meanings.

There are an array of genders out there, and some do not identify mentally with any gender, though they live as whatever they were assigned at birth. There are intersex folk (and who remembers our Faery? She's on Fetl stirring the pot!) there are just a world of folks. The big issue is being called by the right pronouns, which makes all manner of sense...until you run into folks who invent their own. [8|][&o]

There are a reasonable number of trans folks in the Michigan kink scene, and most of them follow the m/f binary. They've all been cool, and I haven't seen any public nonacceptance of them, but I have to say that there's very little public bigotry in my area (YAY). Drag queens make some folks uncomfortable, for some reason...which gives me a ?? because drag queens! w000t! Homophobia, perhaps? That's alive and well under the surface!

The OP on that other thread reminded me of several people that I've known over the years. I will say again: sometimes being trans is NOT the biggest issue in a person's life, and approaching transition as if it will be a magical problem solver is just not a good idea. I've seen that too many times.

Sorry for the ramble, I'm in number mode this morning!



crazyml -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 8:23:10 AM)

Fuck me. That is awesome.



OttersSwim -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 9:25:54 AM)

Yea, I have done the Fetlife trans scene.  Fet is loaded with the More Trans than Thou Mavens, the Cisgender Injustice League, and the Perpetual Victims Club.

I steer clear of all that total negativity approach to life in being trans just as much as I do in my approach to kink or anything.

We should not gloss over the negative things going on...(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/11/shelley-or-treasure-hilliard-henry-hilliard-jr-transgender-teen_n_1088373.html)...I mean...WTF!?

But it is so easy for trans folk to get into a cycle of paranoia about merely living. 

I refuse.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 9:28:17 AM)

Otter, i don't really know what else to say to that besides [sm=applause.gif]



LadyHibiscus -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 9:28:48 AM)

Oh dear heaven, poor Shelley... I live in the burbs of Detroit, and my town scares me sometimes.



Ninebelowzero -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 9:31:07 AM)

Nice one. Big respect.



LafayetteLady -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 10:25:35 AM)

That was a very empowering blog you posted.

I am a bit confused though. My understanding that being transgendered was (probably oversimplified, sorry) essentially that physically you are one sex, while in every other way, emotionally, physchologically, mentally you feel you are the opposite sex.

Otter, I can "sort of" understand that even with those feelings, someone doesn't want to "switch." I use that term because I think of "transitioning" as the process that takes place once one decides to "switch." Ok, "understand is not right, it is more that I respect they are free to decide for themselves whether or not they want to make changes.

But I would like to better understand why someone would make that choice. Most of the TGs' I have known would consider themselves, during transition and after surgery as heterosexual. I do realize that some are both TG and homosexual. I guess I'm imagining the difficulties of considering yourself both transgendered and heterosexual. I suppose I'm trying to contemplate the issues that would arise for, say for example, someone who is physically a man, who every other way feels like a woman, but is interested in men and has no desire to transition to a woman. My mind tells me that they are then homosexual.

Perhaps I am missing something, and I welcome an explanation for better understanding.



LafayetteLady -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 10:36:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Thanks, Otters!!

If you want your head exploded with the latest in transgender stuff...go to Fetl. Be prepared to be SAVAGED for your language. There is a whole world of stuff happening in some areas that is so alien to my experiences, and so hostile to anyone who isn't IN, that I am having a hard time learning it all. It's kind of like when I found out that "Feminist" had acquired new meanings.

There are an array of genders out there, and some do not identify mentally with any gender, though they live as whatever they were assigned at birth. There are intersex folk (and who remembers our Faery? She's on Fetl stirring the pot!) there are just a world of folks. The big issue is being called by the right pronouns, which makes all manner of sense...until you run into folks who invent their own. [8|][&o]



I'm sure this will get flamed up one side and down the other, but aside from those who are intersexed, sorry, you are either male or female physically (general you). One doesn't get to "invent" a new gender because it suits them.

Those that say they don't "identify" as any gender, exactly what do they claim to identify as? A frog? Yes that was snarky, but science throughout time has shown that in all species, things are one of three ways, male, female or intersexed. There isn't another option. "Androgenous" is not a gender, no matter how much someone may like it to be.

I do not spend a great deal of time on FL, but what you are speaking of sounds like nothing more than a bunch of people whose anger at the world at large is coloring their views of reality.

Understanding, acceptance and equality is NEVER going to be found by shouting others down. If we look around here, who gets the respect and has people listen to them on this issue? Stella, Otter, hausboy (and anyone remember LadyEllen?). They are those who with assertiveness, not agressiveness state proudly who they are. They are the ones who don't snark and bitch should someone use the wrong "pronoun," but calmly (and I'm sure patiently) correct the person.

Personally I have no time or patience for the angry homosexuals and transgendered or the heterosexuals who are so angry at the world for not understanding their point of view they really have no idea what is going on because they can't let go of their anger long enough to figure it out.

That wasn't directed to you LH, just response to you because you mentioned the FL thing and people thinking they can invent new genders.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 10:43:04 AM)

Well I don't agree with all you've said, Lafayette Lady, but yes, there is MUCH hostility sent toward those of us who are not in line with whatever the party line du jour is.

Nonbinary gender...I am still wrapping my head around it. Ditto neutrois. I am relentlessly FEMALE, I cannot imagine anything else. Still, I am not going to negate anyone's personal experience of themselves. So, I am trying to learn more, but honestly the environment on Fetl is NOT very conducive to learning.

Okay, remember the 70's RADICAL feminist movement? Where everything had to be JUST SO? On the bus or off the bus? It's like that. I am gathering that those that are reveling in their victimhood are really glad to be a splinter group, but that could be my perception. I can only go by my experience of trans folk, which is completely different.

I MISS LADY ELLEN!



LafayetteLady -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 10:55:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Well I don't agree with all you've said, Lafayette Lady, but yes, there is MUCH hostility sent toward those of us who are not in line with whatever the party line du jour is.

Nonbinary gender...I am still wrapping my head around it. Ditto neutrois. I am relentlessly FEMALE, I cannot imagine anything else. Still, I am not going to negate anyone's personal experience of themselves. So, I am trying to learn more, but honestly the environment on Fetl is NOT very conducive to learning.

Okay, remember the 70's RADICAL feminist movement? Where everything had to be JUST SO? On the bus or off the bus? It's like that. I am gathering that those that are reveling in their victimhood are really glad to be a splinter group, but that could be my perception. I can only go by my experience of trans folk, which is completely different.

I MISS LADY ELLEN!


Ok, I just went and looked them up. While you may or may not agree, I am talking about the phsycial aspect. Scientifically there are only three options. Mentally, the nonbinary seems to be a new way to describe androngeny or bisexuality (at a quick glance) and the whole Neutrois thing is a psychological issue that seems to be more of a matter of someone not wanting to be one or the other and forcibly trying to come up with something else. Rather than deal with the obvious issues they have, they want to be angry and fight to be recognized as something else.

The "woe is me" attitude doesn't go far with me. There are ways to deal with those issues and life complications, one needs to stop whining, get off their ass and find it.

The exact reason I dont spend much time at FL. Seems more like a big angry group of people saying "This is what I am and I will trample anyone who dares disagree." Never conducive to progress.

I miss LE too.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 11:00:48 AM)

Oh okay, I am not talking about the physical, that seems to be a secondary issue in much gender dysphoria. I see a mix of MtF being fine with, say, having a penis, and others just being appalled that they have this "appendage". I don't see the nonbinary as a way of dealing with sexuality so much as *persona*.

Which is tough to deal with, because I am cool with whatever you tell me you are, and I would be mortified if I misgendered someone, but the person with hooters on display who says HE is in MALE MODE...well, it's confusing. I know that I do not like to be confused, and I don't like to feel that I am manipulated into a faux pas.



stellauk -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 11:07:34 AM)

Then there are some advantages to be transgendered. Not many women could get away with being late with the excuse 'I'm sorry, but I couldn't find one of my breasts and had to look all over for it.'



OttersSwim -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 11:07:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

That was a very empowering blog you posted.

I am a bit confused though. My understanding that being transgendered was (probably oversimplified, sorry) essentially that physically you are one sex, while in every other way, emotionally, physchologically, mentally you feel you are the opposite sex.

Otter, I can "sort of" understand that even with those feelings, someone doesn't want to "switch." I use that term because I think of "transitioning" as the process that takes place once one decides to "switch." Ok, "understand is not right, it is more that I respect they are free to decide for themselves whether or not they want to make changes.

But I would like to better understand why someone would make that choice. Most of the TGs' I have known would consider themselves, during transition and after surgery as heterosexual. I do realize that some are both TG and homosexual. I guess I'm imagining the difficulties of considering yourself both transgendered and heterosexual. I suppose I'm trying to contemplate the issues that would arise for, say for example, someone who is physically a man, who every other way feels like a woman, but is interested in men and has no desire to transition to a woman. My mind tells me that they are then homosexual.

Perhaps I am missing something, and I welcome an explanation for better understanding.


I think a key part of what is missing is the separation of "Sexual Orientation" from "Gender Identity".  They are two quite distinct and very different things.  And when  you take that separate thinking in to account, it is easy to see how someone born male can be sexually attracted to men, have decidedly MtF leanings in their psyche and spirit, and choose to not transition for...well for a host of different reasons really.

It is certainly true for most trans folk that they experience a disconnect between their brain and their body and many believe ( me among them ) that there is a physiological "thing" going on here in how the brain has developed with characteristics of the opposite gender that moulds patterns of thinking, behavior, preferences, etc.

That sense of disconnection will vary in intensity and effect from person to person.  For some, it really does come down to a "change or die" decision...others like me...yea, not so much.  I don't hate my penis, I don't look on it as a birth defect, and the dysphoria I have felt since before I was 7 has never driven me so hard to "have to undergo SRS"...now, it has driven me to -change- as I said above....I live much more in a female space now and acknowledge that sense of my female self and revel in experiencing my own version of authenticity.

Does that help explain it?



LadyHibiscus -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 11:10:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

Then there are some advantages to be transgendered. Not many women could get away with being late with the excuse 'I'm sorry, but I couldn't find one of my breasts and had to look all over for it.'


~snerk~

Kleenexes! Socks!



OttersSwim -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 11:12:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

Then there are some advantages to be transgendered. Not many women could get away with being late with the excuse 'I'm sorry, but I couldn't find one of my breasts and had to look all over for it.'


I cannot wait to use that!   :P



stellauk -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 11:18:18 AM)

That was a great blog you posted by the way. Required reading for anyone taking their journey. It isn't becoming that woman or man that puts you on a par with everyone else, but being able to be yourself openly and freely without any fear or compromise.

ETA: You being yourself is what other people accept, even if they have issues with the concept.



hausboy -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 12:02:29 PM)

Thanks Otter for starting this thread.....
Transgender has really become an umbrella term, and there are folks that span the entire gender spectrum.  LafayetteLady, as much as our society has established (and prefers) a two-check box world (you're either M...or F...) there are folks out there that do not fit neatly into either box.  While I've met plenty of intersexed folks who also identified as transgender and some as transsexual, I've also met an equal amount who were quite vocal that they were their own category.

I had a rather interesting experience recently--I had some bloodwork done and sent to the State lab.  Our state lab has three check boxes for gender--Male, Female and Transgender.  I truly did NOT know which box to check.  For my insurance purposes, I have to check "F".  Legally, my gender is "M"   But....I'm Transgender....and there was no check box for "Who the fuck cares...what are my results?"   I decided to check the Transgender box.  Local activists fought long and hard for that little box, and the more of us that check it, the more they can justify why they need to have it.

Most of my experiences as an FTM before transition, were overwhelmingly tough.  Assault, harassment, discrimination, insults.  After transition, because I now completely exist in the world as a man (I don't consider it passing anymore--I am simply male) my experiences have been positive because no one knows.  The only negative experiences I've had post-transition were actually with people who knew me from before, who could never quite get over it, and still use the wrong pronouns, treat me a certain way etc.  Living "stealth" as we call it, affords me a chance to live life as I never had before...with a sense of normalcy.  I used to reject normalcy--as a butch punk dyke, I didn't give a crap what people thought and took on the world.  Perhaps it's just the maturity of getting older, but I stopped living for the battles.  I'm much more content now to blend in and let others fight the good fight.

I did my "civic" duty--I lobbied for tougher anti-bullying policies and TG civil rights laws (and helped get one passed locally) and I used to moonlight as a diversity trainer for HR firms---mandatory training as a result of discrimination lawsuits were my bread and butter and helped me pay for surgery.  I thought it was a bit poetic, myself. 

It's really hard to fully explain how deep gender identity runs.
It permeates everything we do, and those who have congruous gender their whole lives, rarely understand this because it is as natural to them as breathing.  But for those of us who deal with incongruous gender identity, it was just THERE, everyday.  From the moment I woke up and looked in the mirror (which I stopped doing for many years)....getting dressed....walking out the front door....getting a license (or worse, pulled over)... writing a check or using a credit card (and seeing the look on the clerk's face if the name didn't seem to "fit" the cardholder)....using restrooms...dressing rooms...working out....swimming....going on vacation....using the telephone....going out in public with a spouse...even just buying a deodorant....it was always in my face, 24/7/365    And every time you heard that wrong pronoun, it was like someone punched you in the gut.  My body was a prison with a life sentence.

The benefits?  I have been given insight and perspective that only a small amount of the human population has had.  I found myself able to communicate better with both men and women, and as a supervisor at work where I have both men and women working for me, I have not run into some of the obstacles that the other male supervisors complain about regarding their female employees.  Transition did not help me get in touch with my "male side"--I was WELL in touch with that...transitioning to a male allowed me to get in touch with my female side, as backwards as that sounds.



LafayetteLady -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 1:03:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

I think a key part of what is missing is the separation of "Sexual Orientation" from "Gender Identity".  They are two quite distinct and very different things.  And when  you take that separate thinking in to account, it is easy to see how someone born male can be sexually attracted to men, have decidedly MtF leanings in their psyche and spirit, and choose to not transition for...well for a host of different reasons really.


Which, to me, would make them TG AND homosexual. Keep in mind that I'm talking about someone born male who doesn't dress or present themselves as a female, other than the psychological. Yes, I know the pyschological is a huge part of all of it, but I'm talking from a scientific perspective here, because I believe that being transgendered or homosexual is a scientific thing to begin with. The body dysphoric issues and societal acceptance issues are psychological.

Just re-read that and it sounds like I mean the psychological aspects are "fixable." That isn't what I mean. More that there are two things going on. One that is physical, the other that is mental.

quote:



It is certainly true for most trans folk that they experience a disconnect between their brain and their body and many believe ( me among them ) that there is a physiological "thing" going on here in how the brain has developed with characteristics of the opposite gender that moulds patterns of thinking, behavior, preferences, etc.

That sense of disconnection will vary in intensity and effect from person to person.  For some, it really does come down to a "change or die" decision...others like me...yea, not so much.  I don't hate my penis, I don't look on it as a birth defect, and the dysphoria I have felt since before I was 7 has never driven me so hard to "have to undergo SRS"...now, it has driven me to -change- as I said above....I live much more in a female space now and acknowledge that sense of my female self and revel in experiencing my own version of authenticity.

Does that help explain it?



I have always sort of understood the "change or die" or the "not so much" aspects. I can easily respect the person and their decisions either way. If I am going to have more than passing interaction with them, the questions of how they prefer to be addressed or recognized will be dealt with. Passing interaction, not really a concern of course.

I think, in part, at least for me, is that the "nonbinary" and "I'm neither male nor female" people either have for some reason not dealt with their sexual orientation or gender identity issues or are of the whole "new age, no one will define me, I'll make up what I want" type.

While it is oversimplifying and I do know that it is akin to a female who is very feminine, yet also very masculine, wanting to engage in stereotypical male things, like football. Or the very masculine guy who is very "metrosexual." I don't think many here would try to say that being "metrosexual" is part of their gender or sexual identity.

So back to you, Otter....Does that make sense?



DarkSteven -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/12/2011 1:34:30 PM)

My sub is a transgender.  I'll pass along what I've learned from her.

1. The term transgender means a lot of things.  It could mean crossdressers, all the way to those who've have sex reassignment surgery.
2. The main means of making an MtF are the SRS and hormones (HRT).  Some other techniques include breast implants (not actually necessary because estrogen will usually make breasts grow), Adam's apple reduction, and facial surgery.  My sub actually was responsive enough to the hormones that the other stuff wasn't necessary.
3. In theory, sexual orientation is invariant.  In actual fact, the hormone treatments can cause orientation to bend a bit.
4. One of the many odd things about trans is that they may fully present as being their current gender but not feel they're there 100%.  Of course, in tasha's case, she's been female for two or three years and had a complete life before.  I never saw her before or during transition, only after, so I think of her only as female.  I've told her that her body has made the transition but her mind hasn't gotten all the way yet.

One odd thing I've never understood is how powerful the need to associate with a gender is.  I'm a man and happy with that.  Had I been born female, I would have lived happily as a woman.  Transsexuals have such a strong drive to change genders that they are willing to pay thousands of dollars, undergo surgery, and risk alienating their friends and family.  Tasha says it's like Texas Hold'Em - you have to go all in and fully commit.





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