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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/12/2011 1:36:26 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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The piece she wrote on Fetl is fantastic!

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/12/2011 1:56:55 PM   
DarkSteven


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Um, Hib, she's written several things.  Do you mean her essay on her FL profile?

_____________________________

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/12/2011 1:58:32 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Yes, the one called Transgender 101? (having a bad noun day, sorry!)

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/12/2011 2:02:32 PM   
LafayetteLady


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Ok, I'm going to try to do this without quoting in full, so bear with me. But before that, hausboy, you and I have had even exchanges on the other side for you to realize I would never intentionally insult you, so in advance if anything I put here does, my sincerest apologies. I think you are one of the greatest people around here.

quote:


I had a rather interesting experience recently--I had some bloodwork done and sent to the State lab. Our state lab has three check boxes for gender--Male, Female and Transgender. I truly did NOT know which box to check. For my insurance purposes, I have to check "F". Legally, my gender is "M" But....I'm Transgender....and there was no check box for "Who the fuck cares...what are my results?" I decided to check the Transgender box. Local activists fought long and hard for that little box, and the more of us that check it, the more they can justify why they need to have it.


You know from a scientific stance, some bloodwork appears different for male and female. I would think that would be why that third box is so important. Plus as a transgendered person, the hormones that you take can, I'm sure alter the results if the pathologist doesn't allow for it.

Using Chaz Bono as an example since he is currently the most public figure in this. I know that Chaz (Yep, watched the show "Becoming Chaz") has not had the genetalia surgery. Whether or not a hysterectomy has been done or not, I don't know, but I know the plumbing is still there. So at some point every year, Chaz needs to have a pap smear and a pelvic exam. I can't even imagine how that makes him (or you if you are in a similar position) horribly uncomfortable. The reallity, however, is that those "female issues" that are strictly for the scientifically female need to be checked for health issues.

quote:



Ok, I know this sounds really mean, but it isn't meant that way. During transition and after, it isn't all about you (general you). Again, let's use Chaz Bono. I look at him, and would not mistake him for a female. He doesn't remind me of some guys I know, but that isn't relavant, lol. How old is Chaz now? How long ago was this transition? Cher gave birth to him and raised a daughter. Switching pronouns, I'm sure can sometimes happen. Keep in mind I'm not talking about those who refuse or do it intentionally. They are just jerks. But someone who knew Chaz for 20-30 years before his transition, can't just forget all that time he was female. While I get that the person transitioning has had it tough for a long time, they can't expect loved ones to catch up overnight.

quote:


I used to reject normalcy--as a butch punk dyke, I didn't give a crap what people thought and took on the world. Perhaps it's just the maturity of getting older, but I stopped living for the battles.


The above struck me. Was your "butch punk dyke" era before or after you had realized you were transgendered? Because if before, in retrospect, would you say it explains the behavior quite a bit?

As we age, it isn't that we don't "live for the battles," we have just found more productive ways of fighting them.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/12/2011 2:06:29 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Yes, the one called Transgender 101? (having a bad noun day, sorry!)


Link to it: https://fetlife.com/users/523423/posts/444027

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/12/2011 2:07:49 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Thanks, Steven, I didn't want to link without permission. Really, an excellent description of binary trans experience.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/12/2011 2:55:20 PM   
Wolf2Bear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

Greetings Otter,

As some here on the boards know, I have a non biological sister who is M2F post op and non biological brother who is F2M and thus I do have a good understanding of the issues they have to face with the general public and gaining acceptance. Through many heart to heart discussions, both have said the major problems they faced was overcoming the stumbling blocks in their day to day living and the ignorance of people, and surprisingly, it wasn't the issues of who they sleep with or not. I am curious if this has been your experience?



I am curious why you specify that they are your "NON-biological" siblings. As an adoptee, I often here the "real" and "biological" statements and from the position of an adoptee find them offensive, especially since my parents were as real as parents get.



I state it in that manner as they both are not biologically my siblings. Simply as we are so close, actually closer to each other than we are with our own biological families. It is a way to express that we are more than just friends but do consider each other as family.


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/12/2011 3:12:54 PM   
Wolf2Bear


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I spoke with my sis Dee and gave me permission to repost this blurb she wrote on her site expressing her way of what it is like to struggle with gender dysphoria. (sp).  Please keep in  mind that the original article was written in
1998 and it only reflects my sister's thoughts and understanding at that time. Know that it being 13 years later, the terminology has changed so please don't debate over that issue!


The brain is a very complex piece of anatomy that doctors and psychologist have been trying to understand for many years. Medical doctor and psychologist are having troubles explaining our thoughts, feelings and responses in our everyday activities. We, as today society, cant explain our actions as to why we are attracted to the same sex, along with our needs for excitement, pleasures and comfort.

A person walking down the street looking at another same sex person may become confused if there is an attraction. Or another person may not understand why he/she was born in the wrong gender or identity. These two types of scenarios are a mystery to scientists in today's norm as to why it is taking place or if there is a cure.

There have been many treatments and experiments that doctors, psychologists and religion authorities have tried to help a victim of abnormal behaviours in order to believe the victim may become part of today's society's norm.
 
Here is one example of treatment that has been tried for gender disorder only. In order for treatment of gender disorder you had to be diagnosed as having a medical disorder. Once you are diagnosed with gender disorder, it was said that one did not understand how one person had the desire to live as the opposite sex.

Back in the 60s to want to be the opposite sex was unheard of, so in order for a patient to receive treatment, the patient would have to go through rigorous treatment to be cured of this gender disorder. 
In many institutions, the treatment was very harsh and cruel, sometimes leading to death. There have been many cases where the people diagnosed with gender disorder have received psychological help in order to live the socially normal life that the norm portrays.

One of the treatments that the doctor gave to males who wished to be females was to dress the male as a female; wear a female dress, panties, bras, nylons, and so on. Once you were fully dressed, the doctor would connect electrode wires to your body. What would happen is that you would receive an electric shock. Once you got zapped, you would start to take the female garments of until you were naked. The shock treatments would go on three to four times a day until the doctor felt you were cured. After receiving the shock treatments for several months the patient would go out and live in the society of norm thinking he was cured of the gender disorder.

In most cases, the shock and other cruel treatments would fail, whereas the patient felt he or she would never fit into the norm of society, so he or she would commit suicide. Or, if caught in the opposite gender role, he or she would be killed because the social norm believed he or she of a gender disorder was portrayed as a pedophile and a danger to society.Treatment for gender disorder would go on until the late 70s to the early 80s. The people who would survive the gay bashing, or electric shock treatment was the people who stayed at home and was never to be seen in public. The people who did dress in the opposite sex and lived their lives that way took a big chance in losing their life, that is, until the 1980s, when researchers came up with a whole new theory of gender disorder.

The theory is that gender disorder is now known as transgenderism. If you were diagnosed to be transgendered, there were steps and stages a person needed to follow. The first step is to see a psychologist regularly for one year. Then you would be recommended to a doctor to receive hormonal treatment. Your doctor would closely supervise the hormone treatment for the first two years. After the two years or so, you would need to live as the opposite gender for a period of one year before being allowed to receive any surgery that would alter your body to the opposite sex.

The reason for all these stages that need to be followed is that there have been cases where a person with a gender disorder would fall back to their birth sex and still live behind closed doors. If a transgender person chose to live his or her live with his or her birth sex, it would be because either the gender disorder was only a fetish to the transgender person, or the transgender person found it hard to deal with the so-called societys social norm.

Our thoughts and feelings are not like having a seizure where sometime the side of the brain causing the seizure may be removed or scraped for the person to lead a normal life without having to face any other seizures.

A gender disorder person is not someone to fear. If you would only take the time to talk to a person who has gender disorder, you would find that they are interesting people with thoughts and fears. By socializing with a gender disorder person youll learn not only that this person did not choose this way of life but also had to learn how to deal with it in order to cope with societys norm. 
People dont choose their sexual preference or their way of life when gender disorder comes into play.

A well-known fact is that people who realize they are living outside of the social norm may become victims of a high-rate of suicide. Suicide is an easy way out for the gender disorder person because he or she is very depressed and is afraid as to what their family, friends or community think, and most of all, the fear of being killed at the hands of someone else.

Gender disorder people are not looking for a handshake and dont expect todays society to understand and appreciate their way of life. People with gender disorders only ask for support and acceptance of this society in order to help deal with the pain and hurt they must face in order to fit into societys norm. 
It has been said the ones who mock the abnormal person are the ones who speak for themselves and not the community.

These people doing the mocking are either facing a ghost in their own closet with the fear of being found out or have issues of their own that need to be dealt with. But it has been found societal norms fear is caused by ignorance of its own.

Gender disorder people are asking for the public not to turn a blind eye but to understand, help and work with the abnormalities in todays society. By doing so we can make this world a better place to live in.

I wrote this article because I was once a victim of the abnormal and faced a great deal of ridicule, embarrassment, but most of all fear the loss of my family and friends. I will say that I was a victim of suicide on two occasions and was admitted to a psychiatric institution because of self-harm. At the psychiatric hospital, I was diagnosed with having a gender disorder, now known as Transgender. I was very fortunate to get the support and help I needed from my family, friends and community. This is why I am here today to help educate others with or without a gender disorder.



_____________________________

~Resident Sadist Approved~

Take the pain
Take the pleasure
I'm the master of both
Close your eyes, not your mind
Let me into your soul
I'm gonna work it 'til your totally blown

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/12/2011 3:25:17 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

But honestly, my own personal experience has never really been anything but positive, and especially in the BDSM crowd here in Colorado, people have just been lovely and very accepting.



Agreed.  I have seen trans folks welcomed at the Sanctuary, the Longmont munch, Colorado Whips, the R&L parties, Scarlet Moons, Skales, every kink event I've attended.  People here get judged on more important things than transness or not.  As it should be.

That said, Otter, I still haven't met up with you or Miss Nikki!

< Message edited by DarkSteven -- 11/12/2011 3:26:50 PM >


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/12/2011 10:56:58 PM   
BeanTwiceOver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Do you have reservations about interacting with trans-folk?  If so why, and how can we help you to feel more comfortable in the future?



This may not be a popular reply, given the overall kumbaya feel of this thread so far, but I really, intensely resent you posting that second question I'm quoting - both at all and in context of the first.

Now, there are trans people who behave badly, even given the mental illness that is all-too-commonly associated with being trans, the mental and emotional stress of transition (if applicable) and the second puberty (if applicable). God knows some people are just a walking disaster of rudeness, oversensitivity, boundary issues and general instability. I've met 'em.

But hell, if anyone has "reservations," about interacting with any of those individual people, my advice in that case would be the same as in any other: avoid them as soon as you realize they're trouble.

But as for having reservations about interacting with trans people as a class of people, well, that's a whole 'nother story called Deal With Your Shit Yourself.

Which is not to say that I am not willing to answer sincere questions put to me; honest curiosity is never offensive to me, and I have no use for telling people, "That's an offensive question! Figure it out yourself!" (I think saying, "I don't have the emotional resources at the moment to answer your question, sorry, ask someone else," is entirely different, mind you.) If there is a misconception or anxiety that I can clear up for someone, I am generally happy to.

But no, I am not here to "help [cisgender people] feel more comfortable in the future."

No. No, no, no. My interactions with cisgender people generally range from, "pleasant tolerance mixed with poking the specimen," to "getting my ass kicked and loogies spat on it," and I don't have a lot of patience left over for the idea that my existence is, oh dear, making some poor cisgender person uncomfortable.

I am not here to make anyone comfortable, and I will not worry about altering my existence to do so. And neither, I'd suspect, is anyone else, trans or not.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 12:56:36 AM   
OttersSwim


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Resent away.   I am a transgendered person who IS interested in making those around me feel more comfortable if they for some reason don't - guess I am just a big hearted soul or something.

As for all the other cisgender injustice stuff, my personal experience has been quite accepting and fairly wonderful.  I don't interact with "cisgender people"...I interact with "people" and I refuse to fall into the us vs. them trap.


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 2:25:59 AM   
hematitan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

I think a key part of what is missing is the separation of "Sexual Orientation" from "Gender Identity".  They are two quite distinct and very different things.  And when  you take that separate thinking in to account, it is easy to see how someone born male can be sexually attracted to men, have decidedly MtF leanings in their psyche and spirit, and choose to not transition for...well for a host of different reasons really.


Which, to me, would make them TG AND homosexual. Keep in mind that I'm talking about someone born male who doesn't dress or present themselves as a female, other than the psychological. Yes, I know the pyschological is a huge part of all of it, but I'm talking from a scientific perspective here, because I believe that being transgendered or homosexual is a scientific thing to begin with. The body dysphoric issues and societal acceptance issues are psychological.


If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like you're focusing on the physical transition.

The thing is, most trans people firmly identify with the gender they see themselves as before they transition. Transitioning can make them feel more complete, but it doesn't necessarily cement their identity. Increasingly, I think there's been a move away from seeing transitioning as being what makes a trans person a man or a woman. In my own experience, the idea that a trans woman "becomes" a woman when she transitions is going out of vogue. Rather, a lot of trans people feel like they've always been the gender they identify as and always will be whether they transition or not.

So, by that way of seeing it, a female-identified person who prefers men is a straight woman. Even if she looks like a man.

quote:


While it is oversimplifying and I do know that it is akin to a female who is very feminine, yet also very masculine, wanting to engage in stereotypical male things, like football. Or the very masculine guy who is very "metrosexual." I don't think many here would try to say that being "metrosexual" is part of their gender or sexual identity.


I have a non-binary gender identity, and that isn't how it is at all. I'm actually pretty feminine. I'm just not female.

Being non-binary identified doesn't make a whole lot of sense from the standards society because we're so focused on the binary. But it's pretty simple. I'm not a woman, but I don't see myself as a man, either.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 3:11:21 AM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I think, in part, at least for me, is that the "nonbinary" and "I'm neither male nor female" people either have for some reason not dealt with their sexual orientation or gender identity issues or are of the whole "new age, no one will define me, I'll make up what I want" type.

That's a very Westernised way of looking at gender concepts.

I don't have any resources on hand to link to at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I've read that in parts of Africa you get a much more flexible and non-binary attitude to gender assignments. And something about there being many more gender options in Thai culture? (Like, six or seven?) Does that ring a mental bell for anyone?

Either way, I wouldn't exactly call it 'new age'.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 4:39:56 AM   
stellauk


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Oh dear. I don't have any issues with that question. It was posted in an OP on a thread about the transgendered on a message board where many different people come and, as BadOne has rightly stated in the other thread, the transgendered are off radar for a lot of people.

Sure transitioning can be hard, and it can be beset by so many difficulties, so many problems and more than it's fair share of injustice and stupidity, but this should be perfectly clear and apparent before anyone starts.

But life isn't always easy for everyone else either for the exact same reasons.

That saying I see where BeanTwiceOver is coming from. I also avoid the transgendered community for similar reasons, my transition is a health issue, not the entire focus of my life. I'm just too tired of the victim mentality, the discussions over who passes and who doesn't (you never get to pass to everyone, trust me on that score) the boob jobs, and so on. I'm not saying that the community is like that as a whole, it's just that I've had the misfortune to meet enough of them to be put off by it.

Transgendered is not a gender within itself. We all fit in somewhere within the binary gender system even if it lies outside the parameters assumed by the cisgendered. There are two genders, two sexes, but everyone has their own individual genetic make up, their own patterns of DNA, their own chromosomes.

You can have the same variance even among the cisgendered. You can find women who can be quite masculine without compromising their femininity just as you can find men who are feminine as they are masculine. DNA, genes, chromosomes, they're all individual. This is where the answer lies, and the explanation.

This is why it's dependent on self-diagnosis. Examining everyone's genes and such is too expensive and too difficult, so you have to give people the benefit of the doubt. The medical profession do put up obstacles to make sure that only the genuine cases get through. Society however is far more indiscriminate, and some just don't make it even when they should. In some cases reality dawns and some realize that being a woman is far more than having boobs and wearing dresses.

This is just as good a place as anywhere else to raise one's awareness and perhaps try to understand what life can be like for someone who isn't in your immediate circle or your family (or indeed, if someone is).

You see I can explain, but it's not for me to answer your question why. It just is the way it is, I am who I am and that's how it is. You either accept it or you don't. Arguing with me doesn't work, because it doesn't change who I am, and besides, the only person who gets to define me as a person is me. You can only define that what you perceive about me.

What some people tend to forget that this is not my belief, it's my knowledge. Being a mosaic was considered a likely possibility at the start and I was advised to wait until I mature when it became much clearer what gender I'm meant to be. Most transsexuals also know because they work it out through a lengthy process of deduction based on their interactions and life experiences. Those that don't will one day, but they will be pretty accurate in their beliefs. Same thing, more or less.

However I cannot speak for others who are transgendered. Each of us have our own experiences and follow our own individual path and what they think, and feel, is much clearer when spoken with their voice than it ever could be from mine. I just relate and share my experiences, and leave others to work out how much or how little they take from it.

This is because the actual term, transgendered, is so broad and diverse, embracing not just gender but humanity, that trying to categorize or pigeonhole anyone is pointless to begin with. Isn't that how it all starts?

You see, you can ask someone 'What makes you a man?' or 'What makes you a woman?' and the answer you will get is probably as individual as they are as a person. It's no different with the transgendered.

Therefore the bottom line is, you're dealing with someone who's just like you - an individual, but they're also different, just like everyone else.

< Message edited by stellauk -- 11/13/2011 4:43:39 AM >


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 4:46:43 AM   
Ninebelowzero


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Dumb question of the day time.

What is cisgendered?

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 5:29:54 AM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

Dumb question of the day time.

What is cisgendered?


People who have mind, body and soul compatible with one another and are comfortable with their sex and gender identity from birth. Basically most men and women.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 5:31:32 AM   
Ninebelowzero


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Thanks Stella, was totally confuddled there.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 5:36:30 AM   
VaguelyCurious


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Cis and trans = chemistry terms, innit.

ETA: and I think they appear in geography as well, somewhere. But you could put what I know about proper geography on a very small piece of paper.

< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 11/13/2011 5:37:16 AM >


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 7:25:27 AM   
GreedyTop


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this has been such an interesting, and enlightening thread to me. Thank you all for your contributions~!

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 7:54:53 AM   
OttersSwim


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Just wanted to share this.  It really hits the heart of why I refuse to get into the cisgender injustice mindfuck.  People are people...always have been, always will be...and the hardest thing in this world - for EVERYONE - is to live in it.







Attachment (1)

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