The Transgender Thread (Full Version)

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OttersSwim -> The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 2:09:22 PM)

So LadyH wanted to discuss transgender issues, but the thread got rightfully cut short by our hot and tasty Mod Delta.

Thought I would start one here...

So transsexuals face a number of issues and challenges in life and in the pursuit of BDSM activities.  It is my opinion that for most trans folk in the western world, life is not necessarily harder or easier than for anyone else facing a "systemic life challenge" which is what I consider being transgendered to be. 

We buck the system in search of self and authenticity just like a lot of other folk do and we face a number of challenges to our lives that can really suck, and even threaten life and limb.

But honestly, my own personal experience has never really been anything but positive, and especially in the BDSM crowd here in Colorado, people have just been lovely and very accepting.

My experience has been that the genuine trans folk who are searching and who engage with the scene can generally find at least friendship; and for many, relationships that fit them well in their life path.  I know multiple transfolk in Colorado who are engaging in their lives, and happily pursuing BDSM activities - and many in relationships and with wide circles of friends and people who genuinely care about them.

I think that those folks have done a lot of work to come to that point and I find them to mostly be beautiful points of light in any room they enter - authenticity is very attractive...

But that place of authenticity and self and for so many peace between their body and their brain can be a hard place to get to and can take many years.  There is a joke in transgender circles - "What's the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?"    Punchline?   "About three years..."  [:D]

Everyone we see come through these forums with some form of variant gender expression is on a journey - from the panty fetishist to the full-blown transsexual facing change or die conflicts within themselves.  For most, the feelings are ones of conflict - with themselves, with their loved ones, with society...jobs and livelihoods, relationships and marriages, children and more can hang in a balance for them.

It doesn't excuse them poor or clueless behavior here...but I do give some consideration before I reply to where this person might be in that journey.

And that doesn't even begin to cover the exploration of BDSM - feelings of dominance or submission, finding friendships, relationships or even just play partners that everyone must go through and trans-folk are no exception to that....but they have a systemic twist that can present complexities.

And so...transsexuals...we are among you. 

If you go to clubs or events, it is more likely than not that there is at least one of us there.

Do you have questions about what it is like be transgendered that can be explored here in this topic?

Do you have reservations about interacting with trans-folk?  If so why, and how can we help you to feel more comfortable in the future?

Do you have experiences, bad or good, that we can share?

Let's talk!  [:)]







LillyBoPeep -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 2:17:23 PM)

the transperson i know the best i actually know through dance-related channels. he's FtM technically i guess, but i have never been able to relate to him as woman -- EVER. energetically, he was always a guy to me, and it was so confusing before he officially adopted male pronouns -- i can't imagine how imposing the "systemic life challenge" (good phrase) must be for someone actually LIVING it.

it's fascinating, but i feel weird approaching people about it because i don't want to make them feel like science fair exhibits. i want to understand, but i'm just worried that they get weary when people do that, and i don't want to contribute to it. =p
do you get a lot of questions? does it bother you?

we have a few cross-dressers in our community, but it's not something you see much here in NE. at least it hasn't been for me. people who openly ID as trans are even more rare. but i think it's just the culture here -- Nebraska is pretty conservative. they're here, i'm sure, but just trying not to be noticed.




ChatteParfaitt -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 2:29:18 PM)

Yeah for a transgender thread !!

I love CDs, TVs, TGs, any version of male to female floats my boat. And yes, I have given much thought as to WHY. For one thing, I love that "society" sees it as inherently wrong. I am a (theoretical) rebel, after all.

Also, I have never known a TG that was not just an absolutely fantastic person. My personal bias is that the self reflection and struggles inherent in being TG (for whatever reason) makes for an interesting, many faceted, truly aware individual, and I have to say I like those kinds of people.

I am very interested to see how this thread develops.






HeatherMcLeather -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 2:30:22 PM)

I personally think that one of the biggest problems that transgendered people have is due to people <meaning other people> put far too much emphasis on gender to begin with. While it has a bearing on one's sexual and romantic activities, it really should have no bearing on anything else. What is between a person's legs really has little bearing on their value as a human being.



OttersSwim -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 2:36:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
...
it's fascinating, but i feel weird approaching people about it because i don't want to make them feel like science fair exhibits. i want to understand, but i'm just worried that they get weary when people do that, and i don't want to contribute to it. =p
do you get a lot of questions? does it bother you?
...


I don't ever get tired or bothered by people with questions about my being trans as long as the questioner is polite and at least reasonably respectful.

I want to be able to someday walk in to the grocery store, the Target or the Wendy's without people giving me a second look - not because I "pass", but because trasngendered people simply are accepted, hell I will even put up with tolerated...we come closer to "tolerated" in many places in the western world every year.

Kinky people know vanilla people.  Kinky people and vanilla people talk and I find that kinky folk can be among the best ambassadors for alternative ways of living - strong advocates for not only BDSM, but for transgender people whom they know and like too.



Wolf2Bear -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 2:57:30 PM)

Greetings Otter,

As some here on the boards know, I have a non biological sister who is M2F post op and non biological brother who is F2M and thus I do have a good understanding of the issues they have to face with the general public and gaining acceptance. Through many heart to heart discussions, both have said the major problems they faced was overcoming the stumbling blocks in their day to day living and the ignorance of people, and surprisingly, it wasn't the issues of who they sleep with or not. I am curious if this has been your experience?

When I mean day to day, I am referring to paying bills or at a mall shoipping and people rudely treat them as the gender they are transitioning from and not seeing the gender the trans person is moving to. One of their biggest complaints is people refusing to use the correct pronouns when asked several times and the not so hushed whispering behind their backs and the blatant stares.



OttersSwim -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 2:58:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

I personally think that one of the biggest problems that transgendered people have is due to people <meaning other people> put far too much emphasis on gender to begin with. While it has a bearing on one's sexual and romantic activities, it really should have no bearing on anything else. What is between a person's legs really has little bearing on their value as a human being.


I agree that humans put too much emphasis on gender.  But...we cannot really help it.  We are by nature attuned to "categorization". 

We look at one another and take in a whole host of basic information about that other person - gender being one of the first and most important factors for how we will interact with this new human in our sphere.

A transsexual who does not "pass" upsets that 1/10th of a second visual categorization that human brains conduct on every person they see - it short circuits the system and our society has not yet embraced gender variances enough to give people a rational path out of that conundrum...so the reaction in many is that they get flustered, they feel unsure and don't know what to do...

What happens next depends on the personality of the person, the environment they were raised in, or live in now, and their level of understanding or experience they have with transgendered people.

Smile
Frown
Neutral

It says so much and helps me categorize too and chose how/if I will interact with them.

I see this reaction take place in the faces of those I encounter all the time.  I am not transitioned.  I present as male and as female, but even as a male, I frankly look pretty feminine and get called "Ma'am" a lot. 

It's all good, I just smile and go with it.  [:)]



OttersSwim -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 3:18:02 PM)

Greetings Master Wolf,

I have experienced very little of this actually.  People do stare, but I have only really had one person who was fairly rude about it while I was presenting as female and flying back from New Orleans.  When I gave him a level stare back, he looked immediately away and did not look at me again.  A couple of high school boys laughed and pointed in a grocery store and were rewarded with me walking right at them...

I find that most people would rather die than "make a scene".  And so they mostly stare, and some whisper.  But you know, enough of them also give me a warm smile as well - mostly women admittedly...

I won't lie...it is hard for me to be so different in public - I spent so much of my life conforming and trying to fit in.  Every time I go out, I start with knots in my stomach...but the knots pass even if I don't. 

I hope some other trans-folk, and especially Stella will come and participate here.  I know Stella has had quite an interesting journey and I want other perspectives here than my admittedly limited one.



LafayetteLady -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 3:34:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

Greetings Otter,

As some here on the boards know, I have a non biological sister who is M2F post op and non biological brother who is F2M and thus I do have a good understanding of the issues they have to face with the general public and gaining acceptance. Through many heart to heart discussions, both have said the major problems they faced was overcoming the stumbling blocks in their day to day living and the ignorance of people, and surprisingly, it wasn't the issues of who they sleep with or not. I am curious if this has been your experience?



I am curious why you specify that they are your "NON-biological" siblings. As an adoptee, I often here the "real" and "biological" statements and from the position of an adoptee find them offensive, especially since my parents were as real as parents get.



LafayetteLady -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 3:47:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

I personally think that one of the biggest problems that transgendered people have is due to people <meaning other people> put far too much emphasis on gender to begin with. While it has a bearing on one's sexual and romantic activities, it really should have no bearing on anything else. What is between a person's legs really has little bearing on their value as a human being.


I agree that humans put too much emphasis on gender.  But...we cannot really help it.  We are by nature attuned to "categorization". 

We look at one another and take in a whole host of basic information about that other person - gender being one of the first and most important factors for how we will interact with this new human in our sphere.

A transsexual who does not "pass" upsets that 1/10th of a second visual categorization that human brains conduct on every person they see - it short circuits the system and our society has not yet embraced gender variances enough to give people a rational path out of that conundrum...so the reaction in many is that they get flustered, they feel unsure and don't know what to do...



While I agree that all people should be valued for who they are, not their gender, race or ethnicity for that matter, I don't think it is as simple as people wanting to put people in a "gender box" per se. Certainly, I'm not referring to centuries ago when the deliniation between male and female behavior was rigidly defined, but in more recent society.

It brings to mind the European (Swiss, I believe) parents who would not tell anyone the sex of their child so the child could "choose" for themselves and the daycare that refused to use gender specific pronouns. As a transgendered person, I'm sure you can confirm that you didn't choose diddly squat about your gender identity, it was something that came from within. For something as simple as which bathroom a school age child is going to use, those genders, like it or not, are going to be relevant in today's society.

While I think that teaching children to be accepting of all kinds of people, I don't believe we get there by doing the above. Actually, I think the above is likely to cause psychological issues that wouldn't have existed otherwise. Children look to adults for guidance. That includes not only how to behave, but for who they are. Thinking your child has a choice of which sex to be is not only biologically inappropriate, but in the end can be more stressful for a child, causing them to think they MUST be androgenous to be accepted as opposed to being who they are and being fine with it.

I have known plenty of homosexual people in my life. And more than a couple cross-dressers and transgendered. I never had any issues with any of them. Well except for one guy who was a cross-dressers (actually I think the correct term for him would be drag queen). He was a perfectly pleasant guy and worked as a model. He looked positively hot and both a male AND a female. Damn it! That just wasn't fair, lol, and I told him, "most of us have to put some work into looking good as one OR the other, and here you are batting 1000 either way." It was not a comment made to offend at all, and he certainly didn't take it that way. But really, how unfair was that, and how lucky was he? "He" is appropriate for those who wonder because while gay, not transgendered. "She" of course would only apply while in drag.



SuzeQ -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 4:31:07 PM)

A MtF transsexual was recently interviewed on a radio talk show. The DJ asked her about what, if any, pain the person experienced during the operation.

She replied: "Well, when they cut my penis off and created my vagina, that really didn't hurt too much. Even when they implanted the breasts in my chest, well, that really didn't hurt too much either...."

"Then you didn't experience any real pain at all then?" the DJ interupted

"Hell no! It hurt like hell when I got back to work after my leave and found out they cut my salary in half!"
___________________
What is the medical term for a FtM gender reassignment surgery?

A sewadicktomy.



RumpusParable -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 5:22:55 PM)

I'd just like to remind that transsexuals aren't the only type of transgendered people. Thanks.



LafayetteLady -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 5:54:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable

I'd just like to remind that transsexuals aren't the only type of transgendered people. Thanks.


Ok, that one gets me. What other types of "transgendered" people are there?



NiceButMeanGirl -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 5:55:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
Do you have reservations about interacting with trans-folk?  If so why, and how can we help you to feel more comfortable in the future?

Do you have experiences, bad or good, that we can share?

Let's talk!  [:)]

I have absolutely no revervations about interacting with trans-folk. I have two very VERY good friends that are TS. One is MtF and the other is FtM, and they are both totally fantastic people. I count myself lucky to have them in my life and they would be greatly missed if, for some reason, either or both of them disappeared. I've actually talked to both of them at length about their surgeries and how they feel inside about their gender identity. They are just both....great people.

NBMG



outhere69 -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 6:28:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable

I'd just like to remind that transsexuals aren't the only type of transgendered people. Thanks.


Ok, that one gets me. What other types of "transgendered" people are there?

The folks that were born with "ambiguous genitalia", or genitalia that didn't match the genotype, and had a sex "assigned" to them. 



stellauk -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 7:05:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable

I'd just like to remind that transsexuals aren't the only type of transgendered people. Thanks.


Ok, that one gets me. What other types of "transgendered" people are there?

The folks that were born with "ambiguous genitalia", or genitalia that didn't match the genotype, and had a sex "assigned" to them. 



These people are not transgendered. They are intersexed.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 7:06:06 PM)

I am loving this thread !

Here is my first introduction to the transgendered (intersexed). When I was about 5, both my parents worked and my older sister and I were watched over by my "Uncle Jackie."

Now, Uncle Jackie was super feminine for a man, but what did we know. This was late 1950s, and to say ignorance about the transgendered a/o intersexed abounded is to say the moon is round.

Uncle Jackie disappeared from our lives and returned, perhaps 3 years later? So let's say I am 8. Uncle Jackie is now quiet clearly "Aunt Jackie." Yes, even back then you could have the operation, she was one of the first.

My father chased her away from the house and told her to never return, my mother (Jackie is her step-sister) only saw her sis on the sly. I never see my "Aunt" again for many years after my father is dead.

Jackie was a hermaphrodite, and being born in the hills of WV, the family pretended she was a guy and let it go at that. Anything Jackie accomplished in terms of finding herself as a intersexed /transgendered person in the late 1950s, she did on her own. (Wow ! Anyone who lived back then knows what an accomplishment this is.)

Now, almost 50 years later, Aunt Jackie is a fixture in our family. She's a nurse, and has taken time off from her job to nurse my mother through numerous illnesses. Everyone looks up to her, b/c she really is just fantastic.

What can I say? I guess I am biased for the transgendered (intersexed)..



BKSir -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 7:48:15 PM)

Unfortunately I will need to come back to this thread later tonight, and I hope it's still going strong. Oddly enough, I need to go do some prep work, as I'm catering the Utah Gender Conference tomorrow. LOL



LafayetteLady -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 8:11:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk


quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable

I'd just like to remind that transsexuals aren't the only type of transgendered people. Thanks.


Ok, that one gets me. What other types of "transgendered" people are there?

The folks that were born with "ambiguous genitalia", or genitalia that didn't match the genotype, and had a sex "assigned" to them. 



These people are not transgendered. They are intersexed.


Thank you Stella! I was pretty sure they weren't considered TG.



OttersSwim -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/11/2011 10:02:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
These people are not transgendered. They are intersexed.


I have encountered three intersexed people in various TG forums and one on Fetlife and had pretty extensive interactions with all three.  In all cases they did not consider themselves to be TG.  Folks who are intersexed have their own set of unique challenges around finding their place in the world.



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