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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 4:17:13 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Female to Male wouldn't bother me.  That transition can be made hormonally to the point where it can become very difficult to spot.

Male to female definitely does.  No matter what you're telling me, I've got a brain hardwired by untold thousands of years of evolution to recognise female attributes.  Male to female transsexuals are - in almost every case - completely unconvincing.   One that could pass without issue is like a unicorn.  They may exist, but they're a lot rarer than the trans community would like to believe.

For heterosexual men, women are our target market.  When a transsexual expects us to believe they're female despite what our brains are telling us, the instinctive response is revulsion.  There is no way for us to appropriately handle you in any context, because we're always going to think of you as a dude but you want us to handle you socially as a woman.

Normally there's a social dichotomy between men and women.  When a transsexual crosses that dichotomy, that creates  discomfort, in much the same way that crazy people create discomfort.  Crazy people create discomfort because others don't know how to handle them and they don't know what to expect from them.  A transsexual woman creates discomfort because our brains won't let us think of you as a woman, but you want us to treat you as one.

That's never going to fly.  You're asking a lot from us.  Bisexual men probably won't be phased, nor will androgynous men.  Dominant men, with a sexual identity firmly wired into the heterosexual masculine will probably have a lot of trouble.

If technology gets to the point where we can't detect a difference, then things will be easier.  If the perceptible differences are erased then it won't bother us unless we try and fuck you.  And even then, if all the parts are in the right place, it becomes a matter of whether we care what your chromosomal makeup is.  Many, will not.


I'm sort of in agreement.  I'm a heterosexual man, and I'm attracted to women only.  With my sub, I had two conversations with her and a play session before I checked out her Fet profile and found out she was a trans.  I think of her as a woman anyway.

She's been with me to play parties, grocery shopping, chatting with the neighbors, and to synagogue.  She passes.  She's just tall, and has large hands.

That said, she's quite unusual in that most MtFs do not take to HRT as well late in life (she began it just shy of 50).  But MtFs in their 20s take to it much better.


_____________________________

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 4:19:19 PM   
hausboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

I'm a guy that is happy being a guy, to correct you.


ah! then we have something in common...   I'm a guy that is happy to be a guy as well.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 4:20:05 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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Status: offline 		I dunno, I think it's easier to be seen as a feminine-faced man with a beard, than it is to be seen as a masculine faced woman. Standards of femininity are so much more rigid. Emphasis is put on the things that men look at, like what's happening here. If a man can say "you're okay," then you are, even if women say "hmmm........"

As a (mostly) heterosexual woman, I wouldn't say that FtM transsexuals are more likely to be "successful."  I'd say it's about even.




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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 4:22:34 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

I'm a guy that is happy being a guy, to correct you.


So am I. No matter how much I might want to worship a few females I've come across, I'd still never want to be one. But . . . How does that relate?


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 4:28:46 PM   
hausboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

I dunno, I think it's easier to be seen as a feminine-faced man with a beard, than it is to be seen as a masculine faced woman. Standards of femininity are so much more rigid. Emphasis is put on the things that men look at, like what's happening here. If a man can say "you're okay," then you are, even if women say "hmmm........"

As a (mostly) heterosexual woman, I wouldn't say that FtM transsexuals are more likely to be "successful."  I'd say it's about even.





Hi Lilly
Actually, that's not really the case.  You are absolutely correct that due to the emphasis/pressures our society places on women in terms of beauty, women who are large, heavy, big-boned or have masculine facial features (regardless of birth gender or not) will face prejudices.  Men, on the other hand, don't have the same scrutiny.  Short men are seen as.....  short men.   For an overwhelming majority of FTMs (and I've met hundreds if not thousands at this point) we transition extremely well, and  a majority "pass" to use that term, 100% of the time, all the time, typically after a year on hormonal treatment.  MTFs don't always have that luxury.  I have met a few MTFs who were small and petite--if they hadn't told me, I would have no idea that they were born biologically male.

Truth is, most people have interacted with transgender folks, but had no idea.  I just found out recently that the waiter at my favorite restaurant was an FTM.  An old friend from high school recently transitioned MTF, and when I saw her, I couldn't believe it--in a million years I would not have recognized her. (and she's also lucky--she's just 5'4", 120, and has gorgeous long curly hair.)

edited to add: FTMs lose much of their "feminine" facial characteristics.  The shape of our faces and jawline changes quite dramatically, along with hairline and any facial hair growth.  My before and after photos only have one thing in common--the eyes, which never change.


< Message edited by hausboy -- 11/13/2011 4:31:06 PM >

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 4:36:01 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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Status: offline 		well what i'm saying is, there are genetic men who have very soft faces, weak chins, etc. they are genetically male.
but it's easier for them to exist that way because our definition of "masculine traits" is so much more expansive than our definition of feminine traits.

similarly, there are genetically born women who have broad shoulders, hard chins, heavy brows, etc. they deal with prejudice because of the narrow definition of what "feminine" is.

i think if the definition of what feminine is was as wide as the definition of masculine, it would be far more even than it seems to be now.


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 4:38:50 PM   
hausboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

well what i'm saying is, there are genetic men who have very soft faces, weak chins, etc. they are genetically male.
but it's easier for them to exist that way because our definition of "masculine traits" is so much more expansive than our definition of feminine traits.

similarly, there are genetically born women who have broad shoulders, hard chins, heavy brows, etc. they deal with prejudice because of the narrow definition of what "feminine" is.

i think if the definition of what feminine is was as wide as the definition of masculine, it would be far more even than it seems to be now.


I agree--ironically, my ex was a woman with a large build, and due to a medical condition, she would have to shave as so many women do (for those that don't believe me...check out the aisle for women re: hair removal)  She often was mistaken to be an MTF.   Ironic--and it's much funnier now than when it used to happen....  ps you haz mail

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 4:40:44 PM   
NocturnalStalker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

I'm a guy that is happy being a guy, to correct you.


So am I. No matter how much I might want to worship a few females I've come across, I'd still never want to be one. But . . . How does that relate?



Adulation of a female =/= becoming a female. 

I'm aware that it is probably some incurable mental disease the transsexual types experience where they must become the opposite sex, but people will still shun you in terms of relationship material more often than not.  Where I draw the line is when they run around claiming to be fully female/male and deny being transsexual.  That's just deceptive and 99% of the time you can tell they're giving you a white lie. 

My personal thought is that they should just roll with what they've been given in life. 


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 4:49:32 PM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Do you practice? Or does being an asshole just come naturally to you?

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 4:52:17 PM   
hausboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker


Adulation of a female =/= becoming a female. 

I'm aware that it is probably some incurable mental disease the transsexual types experience where they must become the opposite sex, but people will still shun you in terms of relationship material more often than not.  Where I draw the line is when they run around claiming to be fully female/male and deny being transsexual.  That's just deceptive and 99% of the time you can tell they're giving you a white lie. 

My personal thought is that they should just roll with what they've been given in life. 


I have lots of happily married friends--lesbian, gay men, and straight--MTF and FTM--who found love after transition.  I haven't had the experience of someone "denying" it, and for me, I tell the person I'm with when it appears the relationship is going to become sexual..or at least advance to the next emotional level in a relationship.

Your personal thought "roll with what they've got" is easy to say when you have not a single clue what it's like. 
I've buried three friends who felt that they had to just "roll with it."   They couldn't handle what life dealt them.

My quality of life before transition was an existence filled with misery, pain, angst   (perhaps you can relate to that...)  Just the simplest things were tough, and at several points in my life, I was unable to really function.  I spent years suicidal.

After transition, I am productive, stable, calm and all things considered, worlds happier than before.  There is no comparison to the quality of life I have now thanks to modern medicine.


< Message edited by hausboy -- 11/13/2011 4:53:23 PM >

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 5:27:28 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It's your privilege to accuse me of BSing in accord with standard PC demands, Awareness, but that simply isn't true. Speak for your own opinions, by all means, but don't use that word 'us'. Hell, I've had a full-blown, tonsil-tickling snog with a TV before and got a damned powerful stiffy out of it. This is despite knowing said TV as a bloke, outside of BDSM clubs. And that was a TV, not a transsexual.

  Dude, if you get wood from tonguing a guy and you like being fucked up the ass by a chick wielding a strap-on, you're sure as shit not heterosexual  - no matter what you might like to tell yourself.


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 5:32:53 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

My personal thought is that they should just roll with what they've been given in life. 



You know, NS, that's one of the things I'll never understand about being trans.  The sheer power of the drive to change the physical gender to the self-identified gender.  MtF can run $25K for the SRS alone. I don't know the costs for hormones, for new clothes, for paperwork changes, etc.  Not to mention the possibility of job loss, shunning from friends and family, etc.

I cannot imagine the need to change being that strong.  As hausboy has implied, the drive is so strong that the ones who feel they cannot make it commit suicide at a much higher rate than the general population.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to NocturnalStalker)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 5:36:38 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

you like being fucked up the ass by a chick wielding a strap-on
How would that make him less than heterosexual?

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Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 5:40:50 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker
I'm a guy that is happy being a guy, to correct you.


Out of curiosity, what would you have done if, feeling that way, you had been born in a female body?

pam

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 5:47:19 PM   
hausboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker
I'm a guy that is happy being a guy, to correct you.


Out of curiosity, what would you have done if, feeling that way, you had been born in a female body?

pam

I can answer that, pam....  he would have spent his entire savings on hair care products and wouldn't have any money left for therapy, medications or surgery... and end up miserable ...

oh...
wait....
that describes him now.....

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 5:49:15 PM   
NocturnalStalker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

My personal thought is that they should just roll with what they've been given in life. 



You know, NS, that's one of the things I'll never understand about being trans.  The sheer power of the drive to change the physical gender to the self-identified gender.  MtF can run $25K for the SRS alone. I don't know the costs for hormones, for new clothes, for paperwork changes, etc.  Not to mention the possibility of job loss, shunning from friends and family, etc.

I cannot imagine the need to change being that strong.  As hausboy has implied, the drive is so strong that the ones who feel they cannot make it commit suicide at a much higher rate than the general population.



You and me both, DarkSteven.  The amount of what you can potentially lose compared to what you gain just seems lopsided and all about aesthetics in the end. 

People do what they do.  Some of it I don't understand why their brain thinks the way it does.  The inability to relate makes it especially difficult to see it from a transsexual's perspective.  I seriously doubt though that someone born with that mind-set/desire to be the opposite sex would find it impossible to cope and find a happy balance without running the risk of finding themselves ostracized by those around them.


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 5:52:46 PM   
NocturnalStalker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker
I'm a guy that is happy being a guy, to correct you.


Out of curiosity, what would you have done if, feeling that way, you had been born in a female body?

pam


I'd be a heterosexual female that has sex with guys, obviously.  Probably guys that look like me.  </trollface.jpg>


_____________________________

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 5:54:10 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

I seriously doubt though that someone born with that mind-set/desire to be the opposite sex would find it impossible to cope and find a happy balance without running the risk of finding themselves ostracized by those around them.
And clearly you're wrong, but that has never stopped you from spouting bullshit, has it?

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 5:56:22 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


Dude, if you get wood from tonguing a guy and you like being fucked up the ass by a chick wielding a strap-on, you're sure as shit not heterosexual  - no matter what you might like to tell yourself.



I've long since given up giving a rotating rat's anus whether I'm heterosexual, bisexual, perverted, or even a turnip, for that matter. I just enjoy getting wood. What's your point?


< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 11/13/2011 5:57:03 PM >

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/13/2011 5:58:23 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker
I'd be a heterosexual female that has sex with guys, obviously.  Probably guys that look like me.  </trollface.jpg>


Why heterosexual?

pam

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Profile   Post #: 100
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