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RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 12:01:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

On the Fet M/s group, there's an interesting topic about who owns the stuff in an M/s relationship. I thought I'd pose the question over here, just to see what people who aren't on FL and haven't seen the topic there might think of it. :p

So, who owns the stuff? Does it matter if the M moved to live with the s, or visa versa? What if you don't live together? Does the M still own stuff by extension of owning the person who lives there? Can you take something from your s-person's place and move it to your own?

For a sub (the right sub) living out in the country, I'd be happy to do the moving (from the city), but I'd still wanna buy my own place, then decide if we wanna live together.

I own my girl to use as I deem fit (though within the constrains of a monogamous relationship) but make no claim on her own material possessions. I certainly wouldn't be taking anything of hers to keep or otherwise disrespecting her stuff.

quote:

Do you feel the need to declare ownership over all the stuff in order to control the /s and his/her use of said stuff? :p Or do you just not really care at all?

As I said, her material possessions are not my right. But yeah, I do maintain controls through them, especially her clothes. Generally, if she doesn't respect her own possessions then I won't be able to trust her around mine.

And in an ownership dynamic relationship, everything my sub property says or does is a reflection of me, so I absolutely do care how she acts, behaves and generally presents herself both to me and to the outside world.

Focus.

quote:

LillyBoPeep

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(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 12:07:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

Do you feel the need to declare ownership over all the stuff in order to control the /s and his/her use of said stuff? :p Or do you just not really care at all?

I've been a sub in many sub-domme relationships, and frankly if a domme "declared ownership" of my possessions without discussing it, I'd kick her out the door. But then I can't imagine I would ever be in a relationship with someone who was so presumptuous. In my mind, a sub-domme relationship isn't that different than a vanilla relationship in many ways. Both sides have to respect each other and be open to discussing their needs and boundaries. To your basic question - no, I would not give a domme access to my bank accounts, my credit cards, or her give her permission to take or sell any of my belongings.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 2:15:34 AM

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I think like Focus.

Material things mean very little to me and so why would I want my submissives material things. I have absolutely no right to his/her savings or personal stuff.
Its different with my husband. Everything goes in a joint pot and the only things we don't share are family memorabilia like photos and trinkets from our grandparents.

(in reply to switchblademoi)

RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 2:29:10 AM

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If it was her stuff before, it will always be her stuff. I would never dream of selling her stuff. I would feel free to use any of her stuff freely. I would first announce my intentions of using it, to open an avenue of discussion, in case it was a problem for her.

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 4:27:46 AM

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LOL at tazzy haha :)

Thanks to everyone for the replies so far.
I'm not terribly attached to my stuff, but the one thinng he did commandeer was a pair of blue slippers. Haha :)

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RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 7:04:32 AM

MissImmortalPain

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I owe them so I own their things. Don't take that to mean I would refuse them any of it though. I have actually had problems getting some to take their things with them when they leave. I have also gone out of my way to protect things that others have brought into my home. I view it as part of the responibility of allowing things into my home to begin with.

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RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 10:35:35 AM

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When I was selling my house before I moved here, Master was a part of that. He told me what to do, how to sell it, when to sell it, what to do with the proceeds, he told me how I could or could not spend it. When I moved here, he told me to go back to college to finish my degree <which I wanted to do anyway>. I feel he is my life, material things don't mean anything at all to me, and I want him in my life in every single way. If that makes me weak or stupid or whatever, I'm perfectly fine with that. When I chose to have him in my life it meant I spent all those years before meeting him fixing myself, knowing right from wrong, being extra extra careful in adding someone else to my life, spending YEARS getting to know him before I even met him and dating him before I even moved here. It wasn't a willy nilly thing. It wasn't something I jumped into. There were A LOT of discussions and making sure I understood what I was doing. I trust him because he's never given me any reason to even doubt him let alone not trust him. If I even had an inkling of not being able to I would not have agreed to any of this or even wanting to be his slave.

I think the problem with a lot of people is they have this fantasy in their head and jump into this without thinking or even knowing the person at all. Have I done that? Yup and I was burned financially, physically and emotionally. I learned from it though and thus didn't do that this time but I have given over my entire self to him and if that means he wants something financially from me, so be it. I know he's morally not going to abuse that because I know him well enough to know that it would eat him alive to do so.

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RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 10:57:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

I owe them so I own their things. Don't take that to mean I would refuse them any of it though. I have actually had problems getting some to take their things with them when they leave. I have also gone out of my way to protect things that others have brought into my home. I view it as part of the responsibility of allowing things into my home to begin with.

This......kinda.

I wouldn't demand she transfer ownership of her things to me. I mean hell, if she owns a villa in Italy I might demand to spend time there as though it were my own, but I wouldn't expect her to sign the deed over to me. Personal possessions very likely have value to her, either monetary, sentimentally, or a combination thereof. There is no way I would cross that line. To ME, it's just irresponsible and immoral. I would even be cautious on what she felt she wanted to give to me. And yes, this is something I have dealt with.

Then again, I am also adamant about a slave's personal welfare. Health insurance, retirement planning, having a savings for life's what if's.

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RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 11:06:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

The law gives you standing, but do you have it as a concept in your relationship? Can your M sell stuff or give it away without asking you? Do you have things that are yours and things that are his, or do you think of it all as being "ours" or his?

The majority of our stuff is considered ours. We've both worked equally as hard to provide for our relationship and our home.

The tools are his and he would do whatever he wanted with those without notifying me. The motorcycle is his, but he wouldn't make a decision about it without asking my advice. Things that are considered mine, he wouldn't sell or give away without asking.

I think it comes down to our belief that our relationship is a partnership, regardless of the roles we have chosen.

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(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 12:21:54 PM

Toppingfrmbottom

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If I was in a sub role with someone would never consent to them being able to come in and take my stuff with out my permission to sell or get rid of or other wise use or modify. Borrow and respect the item and give it back in same condition they got? maybe if they were trust worthy about taking care of what they borrowed, if they were not, nope I am sorry you're keeping your mitts off my stuff.

Yes, there's my stuff, your stuff, our stuff, and stuff you can borrow but must return in same condition you got it stuff.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

The law gives you standing, but do you have it as a concept in your relationship? Can your M sell stuff or give it away without asking you? Do you have things that are yours and things that are his, or do you think of it all as being "ours" or his?

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RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 2:23:32 PM

Kana

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I own her, so that means I own everything she owns.
That's the technical perspective.

Realistically, I would never touch/take certain things. I couldn't/wouldn't empty her bank account, hurt her credit etc...not because of anything BDSM, but because that's not who or what I am and it's not what decent people do.

I tend to have lines in my head (She don't know about all of em) that delineate where I am comfortable going/taking and where I am not.
I don't violate those personal standards often, or w/o a whole lot of consideration before hand.

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RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 2:30:57 PM

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He has cool, high tech toys and I have nerdy handmade sculpy minatures, 9ers clothes and DnD costumes. He wouldn't even want my stuff much less be able to sell it. lol That said.. even when it's stuff that I've purchased with money which I've earned (and the cooler and more high tech, the more likely he's going to want it) he is all about Mine, Mine, Mine.

I have no problems with it .. it's just.. stuff and he can sell it, trash it, use it (although I think he'd rather be castrated than actually put on a DnD costume!) etc. S'all good.

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RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 2:49:26 PM

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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

I own her, so that means I own everything she owns.
That's the technical perspective.

Realistically, I would never touch/take certain things. I couldn't/wouldn't empty her bank account, hurt her credit etc...not because of anything BDSM, but because that's not who or what I am and it's not what decent people do.

I tend to have lines in my head (She don't know about all of em) that delineate where I am comfortable going/taking and where I am not.
I don't violate those personal standards often, or w/o a whole lot of consideration before hand.

Pretty much this is where I'm at when we're talking about a slave. Truly, I don't need more stuff, and I wouldn't mess with someone else's, though I might control use of it.

I am deeply into my things, and have a lot of turf issues, so I have respect for possessions. At the same time, if the house caught fire, it's parrot, parents, purse and out the door! The thing with stuff is that there is always more!

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RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 3:05:41 PM

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I am sure this will come as no surprise, but ownership of stuff is something I believe needs to be addressed in any relationship, regardless of whether it is vanilla as can be or kinky as hell.
We have previously had threads about prenups, and I believe that even in a non marital relationship it is important to have a written agreement about what belongs to whom, and how things that are jointly purchased are to be distributed. I know many people are hugely opposed to such agreement, because they consider them unromantic, or they anticipate that the relationship won't succeed. Whatever. Even if that is your feeling, consider what might happen if your partner becomes disabled or dies? Something to think about before signing over the title to your house, your 2010 BMW or even your 1973 Ford Pinto. How would you feel if your partner dies (bad enough) and his kids or other relatives end up with your stuff,?
As an extreme example of this, consider the example of Stieg Larrson's (Girl with the Dragon Tattoos) 30 year girl friend. When he died suddenly in 2004, she lost any interest she might have in his "stuff", which is pretty considerable, considering the success of his books. I doubt that is what he intended.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/stieg-larsson-girlfriend-eva-gabrielsson-rages-memoir/story?id=12950542

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The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
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RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 3:30:55 PM

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Yeah, I see what you're saying Iamsemisweet; it does make sense to have some kind of plan in the event of your death. One thing I was happy about when mine died was that his relatives were nice and understood that the car we had was something I still needed (I didn't have one of my own, I didn't really even know my way around town), so I kind of inherited that, but he didn't have anything written down. He was 31 and wasn't expecting to die any time soon. But not all family members are nice, after all, and some of them would be more than willing to cut out someone who they see as having no real right to anything belong to THEIR family member.

Which takes me back to something I was going to comment on and then got side-tracked --

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
For a sub (the right sub) living out in the country, I'd be happy to do the moving (from the city), but I'd still wanna buy my own place, then decide if we wanna live together.

Focus, do you want to have your girl move in with you specifically, not visa versa? A lot of the other protocol you've explained helps define or illustrate the power imbalance, so is this also part of that?
What would your plan be in case you died? Would you arrange for the girl to be able to continue living there if she wanted to?

Anyway, overall, the "I own her/him, and thus, all the stuff" doesn't really bother me. It makes sense to me.
Obviously you have to exercise good judgment about who you're with, but that's the case for anything, really.

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(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 4:51:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

Yeah, I see what you're saying Iamsemisweet; it does make sense to have some kind of plan in the event of your death. One thing I was happy about when mine died was that his relatives were nice and understood that the car we had was something I still needed (I didn't have one of my own, I didn't really even know my way around town), so I kind of inherited that, but he didn't have anything written down. He was 31 and wasn't expecting to die any time soon. But not all family members are nice, after all, and some of them would be more than willing to cut out someone who they see as having no real right to anything belong to THEIR family member.

Which takes me back to something I was going to comment on and then got side-tracked --

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
For a sub (the right sub) living out in the country, I'd be happy to do the moving (from the city), but I'd still wanna buy my own place, then decide if we wanna live together.

Focus, do you want to have your girl move in with you specifically, not visa versa? A lot of the other protocol you've explained helps define or illustrate the power imbalance, so is this also part of that?
What would your plan be in case you died? Would you arrange for the girl to be able to continue living there if she wanted to?

Anyway, overall, the "I own her/him, and thus, all the stuff" doesn't really bother me. It makes sense to me.
Obviously you have to exercise good judgment about who you're with, but that's the case for anything, really.

Lilly,

Not to ask too personal questions, but did you and he live together? Were you together for long? You got the car, if you were living together, what about the place you shared, and its contents? Yes, its just "stuff," but that kind of stuff is the difference between wandering the streets/living in a shelter or having a roof over your head.

These things are important to consider whether they come about by death, or by the relationship ending. I do usually see a big difference towards "stuff" between people over 40 (who have more stuff) and people under 30 (who have yet to aquire much stuff).

I admit I'm attached to my "stuff." I also admit that this whole conversation about stuff keeps making me think of George Carlin and his routine on "stuff."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvgN5gCuLac

Then I realize that he did that in 1986, and you were only about 2 years old, so you had no concerns about "stuff," and certainly didn't watch George Carlin or even know who he was.

Ok, done rambling, lol. Watch the video though, he's funny. He also kind of expresses my thoughts on stuff. I have stuff, some of which I'm very attached to. I have been moving an 8' entertainment center from place to place for 7 years now. It is made up of 3 major pieces and two additional shelving units to make it one big piece. I've gotten rid of all the other furniture I had in 2004, but not this piece. It is mine, it will stay mine and even my housemate will be lucky to display anything on the shelves in it, I'm that attached to it. Yes, it is just a "thing" but it means something to me.

To me, it is all so la la romantic/lifestyleish to say, "He/she can do what he wants with MY things, because by owning me, he owns my things," or the other side of, "I own you and thereby own your things and will use or dispose of as I wish." It is something else entirely to do it. I see the same reasoning given as the no limits slave, "he/she would never do that to me. We took our time to really get to know each other so..." That's great. Until it isn't anymore. Then all those things you didn't think your partner would ever do are ALL they intend to do, and you find yourself shit out of luck. If someone is willing to take that chance, good for them. I stand by my opinion that think it is probably the most unwise decision a person can make.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 5:45:22 PM

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No we didn't live together, but he bought the car after my car accident (my car was obliterated). I had an apartment and had my own stuff otherwise. We actually weren't together super long by some standards before he died, that relationship was just really intense and moved along really fast.

Thanks for the Carlin link haha :)

I do understand what you're saying, though - sometimes people can be super romantic/unrealistic, but also, some people can genuinely believe in something and make it work. I'm really attached to my instruments. Someone who cared about me would understand that about me. Things like that are part of coming to trust and believe in someone. I don't go into relationships with someone I've grown to trust thinking "I should hold back in case we fail or he's not who he says he is." At some point, I feel okay to trust and take that person at his word. I learn that by observing how he treats me, and especially how he treats people he has no stake in, and who he'll get nothing from.

And yeah, sometimes really shitty stuff happens - but that's a risk of life.

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RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 6:03:31 PM

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There's no rule book, I'm afraid. The more dominant the dominant is, the more he or she calls the shots. If they are very dominant, and their submissive is very submissive, it will go more or less as they say it goes, whether that means that the submissive is allowed to own/control their own possessions, or not. The closer the power is to being equal the more the submissive will have a say in such matters, and be able to have it go his or her way.

I think some folks compartmentalize too. The dominant may be absolutely dominant in the bedroom, and have it their way all the time, and have no more say than the submissive when it comes to other matters.

I'd encourage you not to look for judgements based on how things ought to be Lilly. People are people, and how they relate to one another is how they relate to one another. It can't be boiled down to how it's "supposed" to go.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 6:06:46 PM

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nothing I've said is about "how it's supposed to go." Not sure what you're reading.

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RE: Stuff about stuff - 12/7/2011 6:51:18 PM

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I fully understand what you are saying, and it is a lovely sentiment. I made my living off of knowing what people were going to do. Of course, that was AFTER the shit hit the fan and "stuff" was flying everywhere, lol. But when you see enough situations where those things that meant so much to someone suddenly being fought over, it isn't really getting jaded, it is a bit of common sense. For instance your instruments are very important to you, and perhaps your next partner might even add to your collection which would have great meaning as well. Is it that difficult to perceive that if things went bad, (which is when they are NEVER who they were during the relationship), he would want them back, or worse, God forbid, your relationship suffers the same fate as your last, if his family wanted them back? Having a clear understanding that some things are "off the table" or better, having it in writing makes sure that never happens.

I appreciate you answering my questions, I know it was a terrible loss for you and is probably still difficult at times.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

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