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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 12:11:54 PM

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Part of the problem is that men use sex to put women in their place and keep them there, especially in business and relationships.

Not as publicly spoken as it used to be, but the assertion that a woman got a promotion over a man because she obviously had slept her way there is a common theme and one most people recognize. Or if she doesnt play nice how her job may be "cut", especially effect if she was a single parent or the only one making an income. The "funny" jokes about how good she looks on her knees as she is trying to pick something up off the floor, or how its the perfect place for a woman... heard that many times. Those are business.

The personal relationship... barefoot and pregnant... telling their friends within her hearing.. she isnt good at much, except a blowjob/fucking/______ (add your own). I didnt marry her for her cooking, if you know what I mean.. hehehehe. Shut up and shake that ass while you get us some beers. And, yes, these are still used to this day.

Men dont get how harassing these comments are, how demoralizing. Then add a rape upon all that.

Why in the hell would any woman want to report a rape to a bunch of male cops after hearing those comments from men all their lives? Because, while there are many women cops, the term "cops" still wears a male face.

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 1:15:21 PM

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Christina

I can't get past the fact that regardless of whether it's 650 women total on the UVM campus that have been raped, 200 per year that have been raped- or whatever numbers you care to use- that enough women haven't said- gee, the only way these guys doing the raping are going to get stopped is if it gets reported. And there are plenty of us to be taken seriously- if 50 women per year think that they've been raped- and a number of them have been on campus for several years- there are over 100 women who think that a crime has been committed and someone should be punished- but are still unwilling to come forward and say so? On this campus? In the bad old days, I can see some of the excuses given carrying weight- but not here.

My response is that if there aren't 100 women coming forward- there's no smoking gun to these statistics- they remain estimates with no real data behind them. I would hope that some of you begin to question the validity of these statistics by asking similar questions- or are women just seen as particularly gullible when it comes to numbers?

Sam

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 1:22:35 PM

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I dont question the validity.

You are questioning the motives of women who have been raped and dont wish to talk about it, dont wish to be reminded, dont wish to be viewed as sluts or whores who asked for it, dont wish their lives to become open books....

Are you willing to question the victims from Penn State in the same manor?

Reporting in mass wont take the sting away, doesnt remove the fear that, eventually, it will be her, and her alone, on that stand, her life pulled apart by an attorney who is paid to pull it apart.

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 1:41:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Men dont get how harassing these comments are, how demoralizing. Then add a rape upon all that.

I've heard that sort of comment so frequently over the years. It does make me wonder whether, beyond and aside from issues of power, there's some very fundamental lack of understanding between the sexes on what effect rape has. Casteele gave what I felt was a very thought-provoking view on this earlier.

I'm still pondering that post now: I really do have a sense that it takes a mental leap far beyond the usual . . . .

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 1:44:36 PM

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Peon, I honestly think that is where the biggest disconnect is.

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 3:03:13 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
My response is that if there aren't 100 women coming forward- there's no smoking gun to these statistics- they remain estimates with no real data behind them. I would hope that some of you begin to question the validity of these statistics by asking similar questions- or are women just seen as particularly gullible when it comes to numbers?

Sam

so we (women) should all have the same date rape denier mentality that you do???

I dont question the stats because i have been on this side of the fence and sexually harassed in various ways since i was 12..

and once again,.. you make me want to take a long shower and wash the way you make me feel off me...

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 3:30:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Men dont get how harassing these comments are, how demoralizing. Then add a rape upon all that.

I've heard that sort of comment so frequently over the years. It does make me wonder whether, beyond and aside from issues of power, there's some very fundamental lack of understanding between the sexes on what effect rape has. Casteele gave what I felt was a very thought-provoking view on this earlier.

I'm still pondering that post now: I really do have a sense that it takes a mental leap far beyond the usual . . . .

Peon, thank you.

I know some believe I am sexist about this issue. But I have no clue how a man feels when he is raped. What I have seen are women who have been raped. Some viciously. Took care of one woman who was violently raped, then the man gave her an italian necktie. Imagine having that as a reminder of an assault day after day, every time you look into a mirror .

Men dont talk about the humiliation. Men rarely talk about when they are raped at all. Im in no way saying they dont feel these things. We just dont hear about it. Even the few I have cared for in hospitals have never "really" expressed their feelings. Yet the families told me they "changed".

Its the feeling of utter helplessness. Im willing to stretch it and say women find it far easier to report a stranger rape than one of someone close. Everyone understands stranger rape... the physical assault followed by the sexual. When a woman is raped by someone she knows, then all the questions start popping up, the humiliation because now all your friends know, your co-workers, the community, family, church, ect ect ect.

Its no longer private. And, if a man is one of the rare ones who can get into those feelings....

I will tell you what is worse for me to see about a friend who has been raped... that shattered look.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/30/2011 3:32:38 PM >

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 5:02:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I will tell you what is worse for me to see about a friend who has been raped... that shattered look.

To be very honest, Tazzy, I'm not sure that I understand, anywhere near fully, myself. And I'm not a youngster; nor am I stupid, or insensitive.

I always knew that rape involved forcing oneself on someone and that, by definition, it was undesirable in some way to the person who is raped. But as a young man, that was pretty much *all* I knew.

I guess that someone might suggest that a thread be started entitled something like, 'So, why is rape so damaging?' - but, hell, I don't feel like starting it myself. It'd be painful in so many ways, no doubt, to all involved in it.

For the time being I think I'm going to stick with my present pondering. Casteele's post has made me think (as I've done so before) that we have one of R D Laing's 'Knots' on our hands re this subject, and in a very big way. That is, something like: "John doesn't understand something important. Janet would tell him, but Janet doesn't understand what it is that John doesn't understand." To do with very, very fundamental things about the ways in which women and men, respectively, feel about themselves and the world.

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 5:03:08 PM

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so we (women) should all have the same date rape denier mentality that you do???

No- all men and women should treat statistics that have been unproven, yet widely cited for decades with a certain skepticism. Try to imagine TJ- just for a minute, that I'm correct and that the statistics that you believe in are a sham. How are you going to feel then? Because as noted earlier- this debate has far more of an argument about religion than a debate about policy. People either "believe" in the statistics or they don't- and if they don't then they're mocked for being a non-believer.

Consider the progress in thirty years- when I graduated college, if a guy decided to rape one of his classmates- well, the first hurdle she'd have is whether or not he even admitted knowing her. Lack of physical evidence could get a lot of cases tossed. Today, with the improvements in forensic science -that actually make it closer to becoming something of a science-that line of defense is gone. Both men and women today believe since Bill Clinton's famous finger wagging- that if you lie about having sex with someone- you'll get caught.

Consider the impact that social media programs like Facebook are having- where the world is now privy as to who's dating whom. Don't women post pages about lousy dates? I'm guessing men do as well, but clearly, we have no problem letting people know the trivia in our lives. (I'm not on Facebook.) It seems to me that it would be easier than ever to identify who these serial rapists are, since we're no longer discussing stranger rapes.

So when we have both far better means to confirm that sex took place as well as who's dating whom- we still are faced with the spectre of unreported rapes? Why has nothing changed? Doesn't that make you wonder? What's the evidence that it's going to take for you to believe that the numbers have been exaggerated?

Sam

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 5:18:23 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
So when we have both far better means to confirm that sex took place as well as who's dating whom- we still are faced with the spectre of unreported rapes? Why has nothing changed? Doesn't that make you wonder? What's the evidence that it's going to take for you to believe that the numbers have been exaggerated?

Sam

you are so full of shite you disgust me. I see you as no different than a rapist, even if you havent used alcohol, drugs, coercion or various other methods in the past yourself (& i wonder if maybe that is why you are so adamant in your stand since you want to see yourself as such a "good guy"), just your attitude puts you in that league as far as i am concerned. jmnsho

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 5:37:57 PM

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Quoted from Samboct: "So when we have both far better means to confirm that sex took place as well as who's dating whom- we still are faced with the spectre of unreported rapes? Why has nothing changed? Doesn't that make you wonder? What's the evidence that it's going to take for you to believe that the numbers have been exaggerated?"

1. Yes, yes we are. For the various reasons women on this board have told you about ad-nauseum. (and because of attitudes like yours) You just don't want to hear it.
2. Because of the MANY reasons women choose not to report the rapes.
3. Hell no. Because of the stigma that comes with having been raped (as a man or as a woman)
4. Far more "evidence" than you've given, which has been your own opinion, and a bit of research (but you only cited certain things from that lady...Tazzy gave you the rest. Did you read it?

< Message edited by xxblushesxx -- 12/30/2011 5:39:42 PM >

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 5:48:21 PM

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Christina

"1. Y, yes we are. For the various reasons women on this board have told you about ad-nauseum. (and because of attitudes like yours) You just don't want to hear it."

News flash- in case you hadn't noticed- it seems that the school where the president demanded a frat be closed- not on the basis of an actual rape- but on the basis of an email sent out by a single individual would indicate that attitudes have changed. From where I sit- if 100 women come forward at UVM and say they were raped- look at the statistics- the president of that school is going to believe it. (I might too.) So I'm no longer buying "It's too destructive to come forward." It may well be the case in other places- but here's a school that's bending over backwards to accommodate.

So why haven't the women at UVM come forward?

Sam

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 5:49:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

So when we have both far better means to confirm that sex took place as well as who's dating whom- we still are faced with the spectre of unreported rapes? Why has nothing changed? Doesn't that make you wonder? What's the evidence that it's going to take for you to believe that the numbers have been exaggerated?

Sam

Nothing has changed Sam because of one thing: shame.
Sex is usually a private activity.

You file a rape complaint and that is everything but private.

He likely was someone she knew or even had a prior relationship with (those assaults get reported the least because of those society shades of grey you have pointed out repeatedly).

She may have been in shock and didn't report it when it first happened.
This is a very personal type of betrayal.

Not only that but the guy's friends are at the school every day, there is gossip, and people wonder if you didn't some how encourage it or decided (as you assert) that it was just sex you didn't want after the fact, or you are a jilted lover whose one night stand didn't call back. The women you share classes shun you because they don't want to be reminded it *could* happen again... and incidentally they tend to blame victims quicker than men do.

You file a rape complaint and as part of the investigation you get asked about it (and with some law enforcement officers that means you are interrogated) over and over, having to recount the worst minutes of your life, again and again.

He may have used a condom, a lot of rapists do; the smart ones anyway- and so there is no semen to even prove 'something' had taken place unless he hurt you and if it was an acquaintance you might not be believed anyway... or at least you believe that.

And this is all before you can go to court.

Many women just think that the best thing they can do for themselves and their dignity is to try and pretend it never happened.

Rape is a very personal violation, and if it is reported rape victims often feel violated all over again by the legal process.

Why don't women tell?

Why don't you put that in your google and see what you come up with... I am sure you can come up with more reasons than what I listed.

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 5:52:17 PM

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quote:

Try to imagine TJ- just for a minute, that I'm correct and that the statistics that you believe in are a sham.

We know they are not a sham. We have friends, relatives, co-workers neighbors who have been raped and never reported them. If we know thos incidents have never been reported, how can you be so positive the estimates are a sham?

quote:

Consider the impact that social media programs like Facebook are having- where the world is now privy as to who's dating whom. Don't women post pages about lousy dates? I'm guessing men do as well, but clearly, we have no problem letting people know the trivia in our lives. (I'm not on Facebook.) It seems to me that it would be easier than ever to identify who these serial rapists are, since we're no longer discussing stranger rapes.

You are a man. You were just told to bend over and take it "like a man", anally raped by someone stronger and meaner than you... or someone who had something over you.

Now, you report that rape to the authorities. Your attitude is.. I will be damned if he will get away with it! The rape kit comes out... the combing of pubic hairs for evidence, the swabbing of your now sore anus... the questions... the labs tests.. and the waiting for results hoping you didnt pick up a disease. The photographs.

Suddenly, your friends know, your family knows, your co-workers know, your community knows. You go out to the store and people are whispering about you. You go to work and no one knows what to say so no one talks to you. You walk into a room and the laughter suddenly dies.

You have been over your story to the cops thousands of times. Next thing you know, the defense attorney is asking your friends and community questions about you.

Then the trial... you have to get on the witness stand because the guy who raped you wants to see if you have the guts to face him. And every detail of that incident is replayed over and over and over again. They want to know how hard, how often, how long, did he cum inside you, did he pull out, did he wear a rubber, did he force you to suck him off... trust me, they will ask every question under the sun. Some will be objected too, but you still would have heard them, and so would anyone else listening. They will want to know about your sexual life. About your past boyfriends. About where you were leading up to the rape, what you did afterwards... they will pick your life apart on that stand.

Then, when its all over, and you go home... you are there.. alone.. with the memories, the act, the subsequent trial rape, and the knowledge that your life is now no longer your own... you have no privacy. Who do you trust? Who do you talk too? Who could possibly understand?

I really wish I could explain this better... but I fear I am only beating a dead horse here.

I asked you what your line of work is.. because I have a feeling its all clinical/statistical/less human interaction related.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 5:56:15 PM

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quote:

4. Far more "evidence" than you've given, which has been your own opinion, and a bit of research (but you only cited certain things from that lady...Tazzy gave you the rest. Did you read it?

He is ignoring me....

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 6:05:34 PM

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Addendum to previous post-

Christina- I think the president of UVM has an attitude much closer to you than to me.

To the question of how I'd respond if I got raped-

I'd call the cops and finger the guy- wouldn't lose a minutes sleep over it. I would be angry as all hell- but I'd be goddamned if he'd get away with it, and I'd be goddamned if he'd (or she) get to do it to someone else. What I find unbelievable is that out of ALL of the women who have been raped-NONE share this attitude- they all just want to hide? Hiding is selfish- it allows the rapist to go free to rape others.

Another news flash- women are now serving on the front lines of our armed forces- I'm not buying the "men are made of sterner stuff than women". Yes, some men will want to hide. I expect that some women want to hide. I can't imagine that all women want to hide- if they're willing to stick their neck out and get shot at by strangers- then some of them have got to want to put rapists away the same way I would.

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 6:15:58 PM

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quote:

Yes, some men will want to hide.

Reflect upon that when I say.... not all women hide.

quote:

Yes, some men will want to hide. I expect that some women want to hide. I can't imagine that all women want to hide-

All women dont hide.... just because it isnt reported does not mean its hidden. Some times street justice gets here first.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to samboct)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 6:21:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Addendum to previous post-

Christina- I think the president of UVM has an attitude much closer to you than to me.

To the question of how I'd respond if I got raped-

I'd call the cops and finger the guy- wouldn't lose a minutes sleep over it. I would be angry as all hell- but I'd be goddamned if he'd get away with it, and I'd be goddamned if he'd (or she) get to do it to someone else. What I find unbelievable is that out of ALL of the women who have been raped-NONE share this attitude- they all just want to hide? Hiding is selfish- it allows the rapist to go free to rape others.

Another news flash- women are now serving on the front lines of our armed forces- I'm not buying the "men are made of sterner stuff than women". Yes, some men will want to hide. I expect that some women want to hide. I can't imagine that all women want to hide- if they're willing to stick their neck out and get shot at by strangers- then some of them have got to want to put rapists away the same way I would.

Some women hide and some don't.
Not every woman is raped, not every woman is the service is sexually assaulted (often rapists target people who are vulnerable) and not every woman doesn't report.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124001493

Also, FYI: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2011/1228/Sexual-assault-reports-rise-at-military-academies.-How-is-Pentagon-responding

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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 6:24:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Christina

"1. Y, yes we are. For the various reasons women on this board have told you about ad-nauseum. (and because of attitudes like yours) You just don't want to hear it."

News flash- in case you hadn't noticed- it seems that the school where the president demanded a frat be closed- not on the basis of an actual rape- but on the basis of an email sent out by a single individual would indicate that attitudes have changed. From where I sit- if 100 women come forward at UVM and say they were raped- look at the statistics- the president of that school is going to believe it. (I might too.) So I'm no longer buying "It's too destructive to come forward." It may well be the case in other places- but here's a school that's bending over backwards to accommodate.

So why haven't the women at UVM come forward?

Sam

Have you ever been raped, Sam? I'm assuming not, otherwise, you'd know the answers to this question already.
1. They don't want their parents to know.
2. They don't want their friends to know.
3. They don't want their classmates to know.
4. They don't want their love interest (if he/she didn't do it) to know.
5. They don't want their co-workers to know.
6. They don't want the whispering, snickering, and speculation that comes with this allegation.
7. A "rape kit" is often compared to be as invasive as the rape itself.
8. Police are not always sympathetic
9. If they accused a particular person (especially someone popular, or a friend or relative) they can become a pariah.
10. They don't want to be seen as "that girl".

_____________________________

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(in reply to samboct)

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/30/2011 6:30:48 PM

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Many are very young when it happens to them; perhaps they should have the strength and conviction of a grown woman or man?

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(in reply to xxblushesxx)

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