RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child

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tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 6:33:38 AM)
The third option would be all encompassing but not all children would want that either. Some boys actually enjoy what have commonly been known as "boy" things and they don't care for "girl" things. Some girls don't want to touch worms or pick up frogs and they prefer to do what would usually be colloquially referred to as "girl" things. I don't want a male child that wants to go camping but couldn't possibly care less about ... sewing to be "forced" to endour that sewing so that he could go camping Then why not have the two and allow the child to decide where they fit in the best? Not all females want to bake. Not all males want to fish.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 6:39:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The third option would be all encompassing but not all children would want that either. Some boys actually enjoy what have commonly been known as "boy" things and they don't care for "girl" things. Some girls don't want to touch worms or pick up frogs and they prefer to do what would usually be colloquially referred to as "girl" things. I don't want a male child that wants to go camping but couldn't possibly care less about ... sewing to be "forced" to endour that sewing so that he could go camping Then why not have the two and allow the child to decide where they fit in the best? Not all females want to bake. Not all males want to fish. Because some might want to bake *and* fish and some might not want to do both. My grandmothers "forced" me to learn how to cook. It was not something I would have done on my own. Our parents/guardians are supposed to make us do things that we might not want to do but they believe will serve us well in our future. My grandmothers were correct and I love to cook, now. Scouting, however, was always a leisure activity. It was something children chose to do (in most cases). It's supposed to be fun; not a place for us to make them examples of social reform. Peace and comfort, Michael ETA: People have a right to hold views that aren't popular. They have a right to live as they see fit (within the confines of the law) but they do not have the right to impose their views on the majority. I make no bones about some children not falling into traditional gender roles but for the children that do (who would appear to be a majority) why do they have to "suffer" because of the minority?

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 6:49:25 AM)
So the answer is to develop a third option, making them feel more like an outcast than they already do? I just have problems with doing that to children. My son was in boy scouts. Loved the camping/fishing thing. My father taught him to hunt. I took him fishing almost every weekend. My mom, dad and I all taught him how to cook. I personally believe a third alternative will make them he singled out ones. Even the boys scouts have a cooking merit badge and girl scouts have a fishing badge. quote: ETA: People have a right to hold views that aren't popular. They have a right to live as they see fit (within the confines of the law) but they do not have the right to impose their views on the majority. I make no bones about some children not falling into traditional gender roles but for the children that do (who would appear to be a majority) why do they have to "suffer" because of the minority? How are they making anyone else suffer?

DaddySatyr -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 6:55:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl So the answer is to develop a third option, making them feel more like an outcast than they already do? That is not what I meant nor what I typed. I meant quite the opposite but, you're obviously trying to pick a scab. We're done, here.

tweakabelle -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 6:56:11 AM)
The really bizarre thing, it seems to me, is that activities such as camping or cooking are seen as gendered. I'm unable to see any necessary connection between cooking/camping and either femininity or masculinity (or any other gender). Any person of any gender is capable of doing both or either or none. I can see that as a society we insist on imposing an arbitrary connection between certain behaviours and certain genders. I can see that as a society we enforce and police that arbitrary injunction. Can some one point out to me how any body is improved or society is better off as a result of imposing and enforcing such arbitrary divisions?

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 6:59:46 AM)
quote: That is not what I meant nor what I typed. I meant quite the opposite but, you're obviously trying to pick a scab. We're done, here. I was merely asking questions based upon what you wrote. I restated what I saw your opinion as being. If your opinion was not clear, then its not my fault. There is no scab. quote: quote: Then why not have the two and allow the child to decide where they fit in the best? Not all females want to bake. Not all males want to fish. Because some might want to bake and fish and some might not want to do both. To me clearly indicated you wished three different scouting systems.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 7:07:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Can some one point out to me how any body is improved or society is better off as a result of imposing and enforcing such arbitrary divisions? Certainly not imposing or enforcing of anything (including minority lifestyles on the majority) but this (as I stated, earlier): quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I think it's offering people yet another choice and the more choices we have, the more freedom we have. I view that third option as offering our children more choice and anyone that didn't get that, didn't read my posts. Choice is *exactly* what we're talking about here. This child has made a choice. While I grant that this child probably isn't the only one, I think we can all agree that this child is probably in a minority. If we can't, stop reading. If we can accept that this child (and his parents) hold a minority opinion, why does the majority have to conform to their way of life. I am not saying the child should conform to ours. I am celebrating choice but, why should the choice of the majority be limited by the will or whim of the minority? Peace and comfort, Michael ETA: Instead of changing what was, why not *add* something new and create more possibilities? Why destroy when we can create and expand?

Kaliko -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 7:10:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I really do dig you with a shovel but I disagree with this last part ...[/color] Likewise, with bells on, but... Separate schools, etc., during segregation provided for the "separate but equal" provision. Isn't that what was ultimately deemed to not be just? I'm actually not one for allowing boys into girl scouts, or allowing men to work as Hooters servers, or anything else so obviously not meant to exclude anyone, but to serve the purpose. But I would disagree with forming a separate (but equal) group to specifically separate a group from their peers for the very purpose of separating them from their peers. And, the reality is, there just aren't that many trans-gendered children around. To form a separate scouting group for this particular group of children would likely result in a scouting troop of one. Hardly a similar scouting experience to the other troops that are likely available. Side note - as a leader of a well-known girl's group myself, I can assure you that my girls are forced to learn how to read a map and touch slimy animals and build a fire and do all those "boy" things just as they have learned to sew and cook. The activities are across the board. There is, though, a very strong emphasis on our "sisterhood" - which is where it all gets fuzzy.

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 7:32:20 AM)
I have never even looked at the gender thread, and certainly didn't mean to post on a topic that has already been beaten to death. The reason I posted this is because I was a girl scout when I was a kid, and it was important to me. Aside from a few misguided and bigoted individuals, I think the way the Colorado organization has handled this is commendable. By the way, I sure as hell never learned to cook in girl scouts. We did, however, go on a seven day back packing trip through the Montana wilderness every year. So I guess I did learn to cook, now that I think about it, over camp stoves we made ourselves. My GS troop was all about wilderness survival. I will admit that when I first read the article, I was a little taken aback by the mother's comments, and it did cross my mind to wonder how much she was influencing her child's choices. However, the post on dealing with transgendered children was really enlightening to me. I have never experienced or thought much about this subject before, so thanks. In any case, that is between the child and her parents, not some so called Christians who are afraid of " contamination" of their children.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 7:32:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kaliko Separate schools, etc., during segregation provided for the "separate but equal" provision. Isn't that what was ultimately deemed to not be just? I'm actually not one for allowing boys into girl scouts, or allowing men to work as Hooters servers, or anything else so obviously not meant to exclude anyone, but to serve the purpose. But I would disagree with forming a separate (but equal) group to specifically separate a group from their peers for the very purpose of separating them from their peers. And, the reality is, there just aren't that many trans-gendered children around. To form a separate scouting group for this particular group of children would likely result in a scouting troop of one. Hardly a similar scouting experience to the other troops that are likely available. I think the difference between separate schools and separate scouting organizations is that school is somewhere where children are obligated by law to go and we agree (for the most part), as a society, upon what our children should be taught which renders "separate but equal" schools superfluous. Also, "Separate but equal" differentiated between races. No one chooses their race. This child has *chosen* to live "as a girl". Scouting is a free-time or liesure time activity. While it is structured and supervised, it is not a legal requirement for children to be there. They *want* to be there; presumably because they want to have fun. How they define "fun" individually may differ but ... The Boy Scouts served the needs of "boys" in this country for (?almost?)100 years before they were forced (by the government) to acquiesce to a different structure. My only real reference to "equal" was in that: if it was good enough for the Boy Scouts to shut up and take their public screwing, it should be good enough for the Girl Scouts to do the same. Your point about my idea of a third organization is well taken and well granted. My thinking was that apparently, this is a bigger issue than I thought but, your point also underscores my assertion that this child (or small group) is a minority and while their view and lifestyle is valid I don't wish to partake. Peace and comfort, Michael

DaddySatyr -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 8:01:41 AM)
By the way, if the Boy Scouts is open to accepting girls, and if the curriculae are similar in both organizations (BSA and GSA), why can't this girl (by choice) just join the Boy Scouts. Why *must* it be the Girl Scouts? Logic. It's a beautiful thing. I think someone, here, has an agenda. Possibly the parents? I know your answer to my question: "Well, the child will be made fun of if they join the BSA". It sounds to me like this child has made a fairly adult choice and if they're mature enough to do that, they should be mature enough to deal with the consequences of their choice. Peace and comfort, Michael

GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 9:26:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl tweak, dont blame the religion. not all christians feel that way. No, blame the religion. Christianity creates and promotes a huge amount of bigotry and you're talking about the exception that proves the rule.

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 9:27:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr By the way, if the Boy Scouts is open to accepting girls, and if the curriculae are similar in both organizations (BSA and GSA), why can't this girl (by choice) just join the Boy Scouts. Why *must* it be the Girl Scouts? Logic. It's a beautiful thing. I think someone, here, has an agenda. Possibly the parents? I know your answer to my question: "Well, the child will be made fun of if they join the BSA". It sounds to me like this child has made a fairly adult choice and if they're mature enough to do that, they should be mature enough to deal with the consequences of their choice. Peace and comfort, Michael Why must there be a Boy Scouts and a Girl Scouts? Why not make it all one organization? THAT would be the best solution.

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 9:29:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl tweak, dont blame the religion. not all christians feel that way. No, blame the religion. Christianity creates and promotes a huge amount of bigotry and you're talking about the exception that proves the rule. At one time, you would have been correct, GS. Look at the numbers for those who are accepting gay marriages, for example. The image you have of Christianity is outdated. These womens beliefs are outdated. 50 more years and you wont even see shit like this anymore. Times do change.

kdsub -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 9:33:46 AM)
quote: Why must there be a Boy Scouts and a Girl Scouts? tazzy I just don't understand why there cannot be. Hell make a third organization then of mixed gender if you think it necessary. Lets face it like it or not most boys and girls have different interests and there is nothing wrong with organizations that pander to these differences. I don’t believe there is anything wrong with all girl or boy schools or social organizations. Butch

tazzygirl -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 10:08:58 AM)
I find it sad that there has to be. However, having watched the decline of BSA, a new organization, having nothing to do with race, religion or sexual orientation would be wonderful for this country. The notion some have that being around this 7 year old child is "harmful" or that this child will make others "suffer" is ridiculous.

kalikshama -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 10:22:02 AM)
quote: if the curriculae are similar in both organizations (BSA and GSA) What makes you say that? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110408114400.htm ScienceDaily (Apr. 8, 2011) — Nearly 5 million American children participate in the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, but until now no one has looked at the gender messages young people get when they start collecting those coveted badges. Kathleen Denny, a sociology graduate student at the University of Maryland, College Park, analyzed scouting manuals and found that -- despite positive aspects -- today's scouts are being fed stereotypical ideas about femininity and masculinity. Her findings were recently published in Gender & Society. Girl scouts, for example, are steered away from scientific pursuits while boys are discouraged from pursuing artistic interests. While gender has been analyzed in children's books and television, it has rarely been examined in scouting manuals. "The disproportionate and gendered distribution of art and science projects aligns with the large body of research that finds girls being systematically derailed from scientific and mathematical pursuits and professions due to cultural beliefs and stereotypes about their relative ineptitude in these areas," says Denny.

kalikshama -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 10:24:39 AM)
I did more camping with my mother than I did in the Girl Scouts.

GotSteel -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 10:36:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl At one time, you would have been correct, GS. Look at the numbers for those who are accepting gay marriages, for example. The image you have of Christianity is outdated. These womens beliefs are outdated. 50 more years and you wont even see shit like this anymore. Times do change. I seriously hope that in 50 years we won't see shit like this anymore and I hope that it becomes uncommon much sooner than that. What I'm pointing out is that when you explicitly say that not all christians feel that way you implicitly admit that most christians do feel that way.

kalikshama -> RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child (12/23/2011 10:39:09 AM)
Yay for the Girl Scouts: The Girl Scouts of Colorado subsequently released a statement through the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) in support of Archuleta and her excluded daughter, noting, "If a child identifies as a girl and the child's family presents her as a girl, Girl Scouts of Colorado welcomes her as a Girl Scout." Added Rachelle Trujillo, vice president for communications of the Colorado Girl Scouts: "If a child is living as a girl, that's good enough for us. We don't require any proof of gender."

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