Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child

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Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgende... - 12/22/2011 11:02:02 PM

Iamsemisweet

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/21/girl-scout-troops-transgender-child-disband_n_1163971.html?ncid=wsc-huffpost-cards-headline

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/22/2011 11:05:45 PM

tazzygirl

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Susan Bryant-Snure, one of the leaders who resigned, told The Baptist Press that the Girl Scouts' action is "extremely confusing" and an "almost dangerous situation" for children.

Huh?

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/22/2011 11:18:02 PM

Iamsemisweet

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The Colorado Girl scouts themselves supported and welcomed the child's admittance. It was the "Christian" leaders who quit over it.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/22/2011 11:18:49 PM

tazzygirl

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Im just trying to figure out how this 7 year old is a danger.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/22/2011 11:28:53 PM

Iamsemisweet

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Only a danger in their minds.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/22/2011 11:40:47 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Only a danger in their minds.

Yes, that's a very good question isn't it? Who is scared? And what precisely are they scared of?

It's supposed to be a religion of love. And they behave like this? Towards a child? Such narrow mindedness. So sad.

Good on the Girl Guide organisation for supporting little Bobby.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/22/2011 11:43:40 PM

tazzygirl

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tweak, dont blame the religion. not all christians feel that way. This is definitely a case of prejudice being masked behind religion.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 12:07:55 AM

tweakabelle

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Oh I agree tazzy. Those cowardly women (who resigned) seem to me to be hiding their hate (self-hate?) behind their children and their religion.

And they'll succeed in teaching their own children how to hate .....I was trying to draw attention to how they are breaking the tenets of their own religion.

btw there's some discussion about the things such people are scared of on the "where does gender come from" thread.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 12:17:19 AM

tazzygirl

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That part is almost funny... like it can rub off or you can catch it like the flu?

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 12:57:17 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

That part is almost funny... like it can rub off or you can catch it like the flu?

Yes. Exactly! Though I find the idea of thinking about gender as a communicable disease does have some amusing aspects to it, doesn't it? Or, perhaps, an addiction ....?

And if it wasn't so sad, the idea of grown women - mothers no less - being threatened by the gender of a 7 year old is just weird!

What's even more bizarre is people like these accuse often the Bobbies of this world of being 'unnatural' - if gender was truly 'natural', there would nothing to be scared about, would there? I've no doubt Bobby feels her gender is the most natural thing in the world to her.

Is this kind of insecure petrified straight-and-narrowedness, is bigotry the ugliest perversion of the lot?

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 4:55:05 AM

Kaliko

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You know, I am truly trying to wrap my head around this .... in a few ways. Bear with me here - I'm writing with sincerity, not cynicism.

First of all, I don't care if someone is transgendered or any other tran-term that I don't understand. It doesn't make my radar either way and whatever someone wants to do is their business.

But my gut reaction to seeing a 7-year old boy dressed as a girl is to believe that the parents are doing that child a disservice. I started to write something about how I wouldn't allow my 7-year old to choose her own religion, or even her own lunch, because she doesn't have the knowledge about the nutritional content of foods or the emotional capacity to think about concepts of sin, afterlife, etc...to make what I would believe to be educated decisions. How in the world would I ever think it to be okay to allow my child to present herself as another gender? That's a hefty, hefty decision to make, and I can't imagine that anyone would be ready to make that decision at the ripe old age of 7.

And yet...after I typed that...I then sat here and tried to put myself in the shoes of his (her?) mother. The last thing any mother wants to see is her child suffering. Is a boy that believes himself to truly be in the wrong body a child who is emotionally pained? Is he truly happier and more stable now, presenting himself and living like a girl? The idea of it - allowing him to dress like a girl - seems like it would be confusing to the child. But then I thought...perhaps it's very confusing to the child to feel like a girl in a boy's body. And if that's the case, it must make for a sad existence.

I am on the fence about this, I have to admit. Adults or near-adults? Whatever, I don't care. Young children who are obviously still developing in every way? I don't know...it seems like too much of a huge decision, too early on. Perhaps doctors are in favor of allowing it, but...it wouldn't be the first time I've disagreed with the general opinion of doctors.

I know, this was probably all covered on the recent thread of the same topic and I'm honestly not looking to start a repeat of that thread. It's just that I didn't post on there (I don't think) because like I said, I just don't really have an opinion either way. But.... a child? I guess I do have an opinion, and I'm struggling to not sound like I'm closed-minded. I'm not at all. It's just a tough one, I think.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 5:11:40 AM

Hillwilliam

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When girls wanted to join the "Boy Scouts" in the 70's, they were told to accept them or be sued into oblivion.
They even changed the name from "BSA" (Boy Scouts of America) to "Scouts USA"
Double standard much?

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 5:39:11 AM

Aswad

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That one about gender as a communicable disease is accidental genious.

Health,
al-Aswad.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 5:50:51 AM

DaddySatyr

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I think there's a broader issue here, though.

I loved what Kaliko had to say (Hell, I think she's the bees' knees ) and I agree pretty much straight down the line.

I do have a fear, though. While I am not so blind as to think that those born trans-gendered (we used to say "Hermaphrodite" but I'm told that isn't politically correct, anymore) should not be a gender unto themselves, I have always believed that it is kind of arrogant/narcissistic/I can't think of the right word for someone to say: "I was born a certain gender but I shouldn't have been. Nature/God/Genetics/Biology made a mistake." I have a really hard time with that.

Someone who is born obviously one gender in a physical sense is allowed to make any choice they wish but, shouldn't that choice be based upon not only how they feel but upon some amount of life experience? Homosexuals used to argue: "With the way the world hates us, why would anyone choose to be this way?" and it was an effective argument but those arguments usually came from people that were old enough to shave. They had experienced some of the bias and hatred and knew (as much as anyone can be sure of their future) what they were getting themselves into.

We're being asked to accept the decision of a seven year old about a huge life choice . I can't help but wonder how old Jeffrey Dahmer was when he tortured and killed his first animal but, I think I remember he was pretty young. Should we have indulged that? Surely, he had made a choice?

Now, to the real meat of this issue (and I apologize for the partial hijack):

I am constantly off on Quixotic crusade for equality. I want it more than I want my 30 oz. cup of soda in the morning but I like the fact that men and ladies are different . I genuinely enjoy the fact that because of these differences we have different life experiences and that when we "team up", we get input from both sides. After all, we call it a partnership for a reason.

I was never for the Boy Scouts being forced to accept girls. Again, the whole "difference" thing but, since no one consulted me about it and it seems to have happened, absent my blessing, it would be incredibly duplicitous for the Girl Scouts to not allow boys into their fold. That doesn't mean that duplicity doesn't occur. I'm old enough to remember NOW screaming about how they wanted females to really be soldiers, sailors, marines, and air force and when, the issue came up (under President Carter) about women then serving as infantry troops, the NOW gals were the first ones to voice protest.

I guess it kind of comes down to integrity. If a person supported the right of a girl to join the Boy Scouts, they would have to support the right of this boy to join the Girl Scouts or their opinion on either subject has no merit or credence.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

ETA: Maybe we should have a third scouting organization? Maybe one where they are just "Scouts" and we could go back to having "Boy Scouts" for those that wish that experience and Girl Scouts for those that prefer those activities?

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 12/23/2011 6:02:40 AM >

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:06:26 AM

tweakabelle

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Kaliko, the phenomenon of transgender children is one that is gaining increasing recognition. It presents a unique set of challenges for both child and parents. As understanding of transgender develops, more and more parents are deciding to accept their children's 'natures' and raise them as members of their preferred gender.

This behaviour tends to manifest itself at a very early age, often as young as 2 or so. Typically there follows a pitched battle between the parents and the child over the child's gender. Often, a child refuses point blank to go along with the gender assignment it has been given. Eventually the parents surrender to an immovable force, accept the situation and start thinking about the what is best for the child. I have never heard of a case of parents accepting their child as transgendered on frivolous grounds. The evidence I've seen suggests that the element of choice is minimal - for these children any other option is inconceivable, parents often report that they've tried every other alternative without success.

The stats on such children whose situation is not resolved are horrifying. I've seen figures of suicide attempt rates in the 50 percentile range. The treatment meted out to such kids whose issues aren't resolved tends to be needlessly cruel, often gratuitously violent - at school, from teachers, other students, other children, their parents and so on. Transgenders report considerable advantages to an otherwise trying set of life circumstances by 'changing over' early, preferably pre-puberty with all the irreversible physical changes that brings.

These exists a range of support services for children and their parents who face these issues. These can range from 'gender therapists', medical specialists to self-help and support groups for parents and children. Almost all the evidence I've seen reports positive outcomes to appropriate early interventions. You can find out a lot more by googling 'transgender children'.

While I appreciate your concerns, my sense is you're trying to address some difficult issues bravely and honestly. The picture is far from being as bleak as you appear to think it is. So my feeling is that you will find further research into this issue a rewarding experience. I hope so.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/23/2011 6:13:09 AM >

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:09:48 AM

kdsub

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It is at least good to see the Girl Scouts themselves seem to be changing their stance on the traditional interpretation of gender. Although I’m not sure I have heard the same bigotry from the Girl Scouts as I have from the Boy Scouts.

Those leaders who resigned shouldn’t have been leaders anyway and I’ll bet the children will soon be in other troops.

I do see a dilemma with the Girl Scout leadership however. Do they worry about the confusion of young minds…do they try to explain what transgender means at that age? How do they handle facilities and sleeping arrangements for instance. I know I know 7 years old should not make a difference but people do get older. Something to think about anyway.

Butch

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:10:00 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

"Hermaphrodite"

Is someone who is born with the reproductive organs of both sexes. Transgender is where the organs dont match the brain... being born with boys parts, but self identifying as a female.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:13:23 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

"Hermaphrodite"

Is someone who is born with the reproductive organs of both sexes. Transgender is where the organs dont match the brain... being born with boys parts, but self identifying as a female.

I knew the definition of "Hermaphrodite". I was just under the impression that that word wasn't used in polite company, anymore and I couldn't be asked to look it up but I think I remember that there is a new, preferred, PC term for people that are born with that physiology.

I view people born that way as different than people that are clearly physically male or female but choosing to "cross over" and live as the gender contrary to how they were born. I was attempting to make that distinction

ETA: I found it!

quote:

ORIGINAL Wikipedia: Hermaphrodite

The word hermaphrodite entered the English lexicon in the 15th century, derived from the Greek Hermaphroditos a combination of the names of the gods Hermes (male) and Aphrodite (female). Recently, the word "intersex" has come into preferred usage for humans, since the word "hermaphrodite" is considered to be misleading and stigmatizing, and "scientifically specious and clinically problematic."

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 12/23/2011 6:22:12 AM >

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:20:41 AM

Kaliko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I think there's a broader issue here, though.

I have always believed that it is kind of arrogant/narcissistic/I can't think of the right word for someone to say: "I was born a certain gender but I shouldn't have been. Nature/God/Genetics/Biology made a mistake." I have a really hard time with that.

This is where I am getting tripped up in my thoughts. My first reaction to reading this was "Yes, I feel the same way." But...wait a second...what about people who are born with Down's Syndrome? Or people that are born blind? Not that I'm relating this issue with a disease or disability, but yes...I suppose Nature/God/Genetics/Biology does make mistakes.

quote:

Someone who is born obviously one gender in a physical sense is allowed to make any choice they wish but, shouldn't that choice be based upon not only how they feel but upon some amount of life experience? Homosexuals used to argue: "With the way the world hates us, why would anyone choose to be this way?" and it was an effective argument but those arguments usually came from people that were old enough to shave. They had experienced some of the bias and hatred and knew (as much as anyone can be sure of their future) what they were getting themselves into.

Yes. This is more accurately what I was referring to. I would think there must be a choice to be made when one find's him/herself faced with this. One option could be to just try to live with it as society expects, the other is to try to go against what society might expect. Both options must come with a whole lot of baggage to deal with internally. I am thinking at 7 years old one might be too young to take on emotional confrontations like that on purpose.

quote:

We're being asked to accept the decision of a seven year old about a huge life choice . I can't help but wonder how old Jeffrey Dahmer was when he tortured and killed his first animal but, I think I remember he was pretty young. Should we have indulged that? Surely, he had made a choice?

I would argue about whether he actually made a choice, but that would be for another thread.

quote:

ETA: Maybe we should have a third scouting organization? Maybe one where they are just "Scouts" and we could go back to having "Boy Scouts" for those that wish that experience and Girl Scouts for those that prefer those activities?

No, I don't think so. That would be dodging the issue, not dealing with it. Akin to segregation.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/23/2011 6:30:41 AM

DaddySatyr

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I really do dig you with a shovel but I disagree with this last part ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

No, I don't think so. That would be dodging the issue, not dealing with it. Akin to segregation.

I don't think it's dodging the issue, at all. I think it's offering people yet another choice and the more choices we have, the more freedom we have. The more ability to be that young boy that prefers baking and sewing to playing baseball or fishing.

The third option would be all encompassing but not all children would want that either. Some boys actually enjoy what have commonly been known as "boy" things and they don't care for "girl" things. Some girls don't want to touch worms or pick up frogs and they prefer to do what would usually be colloquially referred to as "girl" things.

I don't want a male child that wants to go camping but couldn't possibly care less about ... sewing to be "forced" to endour that sewing so that he could go camping

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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