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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:02:01 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

its widely believed that light bulb manufacturers used planned obsolescence since the 1920's to intentionally shorten the lifespan of conventional incandescent tubes



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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:10:45 PM   
tj444


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I question if they last anywhere near as long as the mfrs claim.. I have bought ordinary light bulbs, the package says they are to last like 1,000 hours.. but it seems they last no where near that..

I dont trust what bulb mfrs claim at all, especially since mfrs will throw a product out in the market and wait to see what the problems are, like the public/customers are guinea pigs for their projects.. So to pay $50, or $20/bulb for led.. and then have it crap out after not much time.. pfffffttttt


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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:13:13 PM   
Anaxagoras


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LOL planned obsolescence is widely known about http://www.uow.edu.au/~sharonb/columns/engcol8.html - ever notice how products have become less and less well built over the years? Today its often hardly worth repairing modern goods like TVs because their expected shelf life is extremely short. This is at least as serious an issue as energy efficiency.

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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:15:35 PM   
Musicmystery


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Jokes are widely known about too. I don't have a link, though. But perhaps someone will find you one.

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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:16:53 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
I question if they last anywhere near as long as the mfrs claim.. I have bought ordinary light bulbs, the package says they are to last like 1,000 hours.. but it seems they last no where near that..

I dont trust what bulb mfrs claim at all, especially since mfrs will throw a product out in the market and wait to see what the problems are, like the public/customers are guinea pigs for their projects.. So to pay $50, or $20/bulb for led.. and then have it crap out after not much time.. pfffffttttt

Yeah thats one issue as well. The lifespan of CFLs was cited as a major factor in buying them yet I have had loads of CFLs blow after a year and I'm pretty careful with switching off lights. LEDs may have benefits but for 20-50 dollars they better come with a decent exchange guarantee because the track record of the manufacturers is poor to say the least!

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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:17:23 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I dont trust what bulb mfrs claim


You've never heard of consumer reports?

I hear those new-fangled horseless carriages work better than they used to.

I have a neighbor who swears her light bulb actually glows in the dark!

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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:18:26 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Jokes are widely known about too. I don't have a link, though. But perhaps someone will find you one.

Here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke perhaps you can familiarise yourself with how they go... [kidding]

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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:18:31 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

the track record of the manufacturers is poor to say the least


Nonsense. Love to see the stats on this one.

Have you considered candles?

Though they don't last 1000 hours.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/14/2012 3:19:05 PM >

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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:18:53 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Next year I'll add a windmill, and get paid for electricity instead of paying. Forever.

just outta curiousity.. did you happen to estimate/guestimate how much surplus electricity your windmill would generate and how much extra income that would be per year?

Even more directly, I talked to people who already have one.

Results vary, but all are reaping a surplus, some substantially so.

so from that I am guessing you expect it to give you a surplus also... I am guessing that estimating the amount of power & income generated is not easy cuz of the wind variances.. i would think solar would be easier to estimate but then again,.. solar is supposed to become less efficient over time, from what i understand at any rate.. Its an interesting subject to me but not something i can dig into for a while until i have the spare time to..

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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:20:48 PM   
Musicmystery


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Solar is actually less efficient here; the sun doesn't shine as much as the wind blows. Yes, these things are measured.

This is why my home is passive solar--absorbing sunlight directly, but not to make electricity.

Additionally, solar doesn't come with the tax credits that wind does, nor can it be sold back.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/14/2012 3:21:45 PM >

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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:22:00 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

the track record of the manufacturers is poor to say the least


Nonsense. Love to see the stats on this one.

Have you considered candles?

Though they don't last 1000 hours.

Just google CFL unreliability, and for the record who do you think was behind planned obsolescence and continued it for 80+ years? Now that green energy is cool, they are offering us long-life bulbs? Long time coming I would say...

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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:24:03 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I dont trust what bulb mfrs claim


You've never heard of consumer reports?

I hear those new-fangled horseless carriages work better than they used to.

I have a neighbor who swears her light bulb actually glows in the dark!

I dont happen to have a subscription to consumer reports and not all are available at the library..

I would certainly hope light bulbs glow in the dark.. thats what you are paying for, after all!..

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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:29:40 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

the track record of the manufacturers is poor to say the least


Nonsense. Love to see the stats on this one.

Have you considered candles?

Though they don't last 1000 hours.


Just google CFL unreliability, and for the record who do you think was behind planned obsolescence and continued it for 80+ years? Now that green energy is cool, they are offering us long-life bulbs? Long time coming I would say...

Your claim, your research. Love to see something credible.

I started using CFLs when they were new (and fairly large). Paid $16 a piece for them. They lasted ten years. And lit quite reliably. In fact, you are the first I've ever heard to say different.


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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:31:03 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I dont happen to have a subscription to consumer reports and not all are available at the library.


You should check out this new Internet everybody's talking about.

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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:31:11 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Additionally, solar doesn't come with the tax credits that wind does, nor can it be sold back.

CA does subsidize solar but then ya got them greedy city halls that charge as much as $14,000 just for the permit/permission for putting solar on your house!

my problem with subsidies tho is in CA (likely most places) the solar needs to be installed "professionally".. If i buy my own panels or use the peel and stick kind then I dont get the subsidy..

i havent looked at wind cuz as you say, you need wind in the first place.. so it depends on where you are..



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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 3:32:16 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

i havent looked at wind cuz as you say, you need wind in the first place.. so it depends on where you are.


Yes. It's a site specific decision.

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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 4:42:22 PM   
LizDeluxe


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I'll try LED lighting after it has been to market for a bit and the price comes down. I was an early convert to CFL lighting and early on I was very pleased with the technology. The bulbs lit quickly and had a very incandescent feel to the light they gave off. I am still using those bulbs here in my study.

As more brands came to market the consistency in these qualities began to vary widely. Turn on time - warm up time - the quality of the light. I just replaced a dead 100W incandescent bulb in my bedroom with an equivalent CFL. It takes the bulb longer to warm up to full luminance than I might otherwise have even been in the room to do what I needed to do. They definitely are a money saver in the long term but there are trade offs. The quality of the light in there now is markedly less pleasing.

As a consumer there is more to the issue to me than the price of the fixture, the cost to power it and the cost over the lifetime of the fixture. Had the earliest CFL lamps I tried performed like the ones I purchased recently I would not have hopped on the bandwagon until I was forced to. Saving money and energy is wonderful but I do not dig feeling like I am a tomato in a grow room.

I tried to attach some democrat/republican slant to this post like the rest of you sheep are so adept at doing but alas... being a creature capable of critical thought I was not able to stoop to that level.


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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 5:08:36 PM   
Edwynn


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~FR~

As mentioned earlier, incandescents are doomed in today's world because efficiency of lumens per watt comes at the cost of shorter bulb life, the most efficient of them far below CFL's in that regard in any case. As mentioned in the article on the oldest working bulbs, they are all very low wattage and not turned off for decades at a time, both conducive to longer life, and both not realistic for normal usage.

I think that (I can't recall where I read it, but seemed pretty reliable) life span of LEDs is benefited because number of on/off cycles is seemingly virtually irrelevant, contrary to all other technologies. The LEDs are also notable in that they come to full luminosity in less than a half second, no waiting for either brightness or color change.

quote:

LEDs may have benefits but for 20-50 dollars they better come with a decent exchange guarantee 


Here's a chart from the C. Crane Co. The bulb with 50,000 hr. rated life priced at $25 comes with a 5 yr. warranty. As shown elsewhere on the site, the $20 30,000 hr. rated life version includes a 3 yr. warranty.

I'm no expert, but I am more aware than most how much trouble it is to bring a new useful product to life. To invest a large part of one's own funds or commit a large part of company earnings to this endeaor and then borrow another large portion and commence the juggling act of biting the bullet and paying the money where needed and do all sorts of back flips to lower cost is not an easy task. But then to accomplish that sufficiently to have a product that will at least break even in this consumer environment is quite an achievement in my eyes. I say congratulations to those who stuck their necks out and made it happen.

If those who can afford the current price indulge themselves accordingly, we'll be looking at $7-$15 bulbs in less than five years. Maybe three.

If I'm a poor person, I'd be doing what I can to get the word out so I might be able to afford them sooner rather than later.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/14/2012 5:28:32 PM >

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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 5:25:14 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You are SO missing the point. The cost of lighting a bulb far outstrips its cost.

Consider a larger scale:

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/4/8/16

Currently, the City incurs $372,000 in annual electricity costs for street lighting, and this could be reduced by 47% if all the fixtures are replaced with LEDs. Along with a further projected 75% reduction in $179,000 of annual capital and maintenance costs, the City could realize $309,090 in annual savings.

"Congratulations to Welland for leading the way with its pilot project to install LED street lighting,



More energy-efficient light-emitting diodes are rapidly becoming the preferred lighting solution worldwide
By David Biello |
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=led-there-be-light

torraca-LEDs FIRST LED CITY: Torraca, Italy, is the first town to be entirely lit by LED lights. Image: COURTESY OF CREE

Torraca is a small village of 1,200 people in Italy. It is also the first place in the world to be totally illuminated by light-emitting diodes (LEDs). Representing a sea change, much like when electric lamps first graced London's Holborn Viaduct back in 1878, some 700 streetlights (each containing 54 LEDS) now line Torraca's arteries—and locales around the world, from Beijing's Bird's Nest Olympic Stadium to the Raleigh Convention Center's Shimmer Wall in North Carolina, have begun to use LEDs to light up the night.

"There are more than 30 installations like Torraca around the world," says Mark McClear, director of business development at Durham, N.C.-based LED-maker Cree, Inc., which made the LEDs in Torraca's streetlamps. "It's growing weekly."

The lightbulb of the future may just be a small piece of semiconductor. Rather than heating tungsten to at least 3,100 degrees Fahrenheit (1,700 degrees Celsius) or exciting fluorescent gases, LEDs can produce lumens with less electricity.

. . .

Cost has been the major obstacle for LEDs, which last up to as 50,000 hours (10 years if used 12 hours a day)—gradually dimming over time—compared with about 800 hours for a typical 100-watt incandescent. "The average bulb is on two hours a day. At that rate, an LED would last 136 years," McClear says. "If you bought a fixture and only used it two hours a day, it would last longer than your house. It would last longer than you."

Potential energy savings, however, appear to hold more sway with cities and building owners than cost. After all, some 22 percent of all electricity use in the U.S. is devoted to lighting, according to the U.S. Department of Energy—and switching to LEDs could save $280 billion by 2028. In fact, researchers at the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, N.Y., estimate that replacing incandescents with LEDs could save $1.83 trillion in energy costs globally over the next decade and eliminate the need for 280 1,000-megawatt power plants.

"Forcing electricity though a filament and heating it up to the point where it emits light, [is] horribly inefficient, on the order of 95 percent inefficient," McClear says. "The best LEDs are on the order of 35 percent more efficient."

Among those dazzled by LEDs: North Carolina State University in Raleigh, which last year installed 730 Cree LED lights in a dormitory building and saved 44 percent of the energy consumed by the fluorescent predecessors per day, according to the university. Discount chain Wal-Mart has replaced fluorescent light fixtures in its freezer sections with LEDs. And the City of Los Angeles plans to replace some 140,000 street lamps with LED fixtures by 2014 at a cost of $57 million, tapping some of its funding from the Clinton Climate Initiative and the Los Angeles Department of Water & Power.

New LED lights can put out the equivalent light of 100-watt incandescent while only consuming 13 watts of power. They also outlast equivalent compact fluorescent lightbulbs but use 50 percent less energy and skip the toxic mercury required as ballast. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) estimates that 670 million such fluorescent lights end up in the trash yearly and release some two to four tons of mercury per annum into the environment.

Advances in the underlying technology have allowed Cree, for one, to boost output from a single one-square-millimeter diode to 161 lumens per watt. Partially as a result, the Federal Reserve is using LEDs for its overhead recessed lights and the Pentagon has installed some 4,200 LED fixtures to reduce energy costs and improve light quality, according to the U.S. Department of Defense.




yay yay hip hip hooray!


just like the flouescents

everyone switches over then the power company raises their prices to hold the stocks up LMAO


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RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 5:47:36 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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RealOne, you could be right, but there are other benefits to reducing energy consumption. Also, at least where I live, power rates are regulated through a quasi judicial procedure, so it isn't that simple to jack up the rates

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