Collarchat.com

Join Our Community
Collarchat.com

Home  Login  Search 

RE: A Bright Idea


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: A Bright Idea Page: <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 6:59:38 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

the track record of the manufacturers is poor to say the least

Nonsense. Love to see the stats on this one.

Have you considered candles?

Though they don't last 1000 hours.

Just google CFL unreliability, and for the record who do you think was behind planned obsolescence and continued it for 80+ years? Now that green energy is cool, they are offering us long-life bulbs? Long time coming I would say...

Your claim, your research. Love to see something credible.

I started using CFLs when they were new (and fairly large). Paid $16 a piece for them. They lasted ten years. And lit quite reliably. In fact, you are the first I've ever heard to say different.

Well I provided you with two fairly good sources about planned obsolescence which intimately involved the lighting companies right from the start, and I suggested you just look up google to see there are issues over CFL reliability - here is one link http://www.edn.com/article/472230-Compact_fluorescent_lights_Not_always_the_best_solution.php that attests to the technological issues with CFL's. I have had a substantial number burning out. I thought I was unlucky until I looked online and many people are griping about them, e.g. http://www.kiloxray.com/blog/compact-fluorescent-lamps-reliability-log/ and http://secondlawoflife.wordpress.com/tag/reliability-of-cfl/

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 7:00:08 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

i hate the idea that China could have a monopoly on certain metals and hold the rest of the world hostage to whatever they wish to charge..


Is it just china or would you hate the idea of any country doing that?

any country that has a monopoly, just as any corp that has a monopoly.. are ya'll for monopolies or something? do you see a monopoly as a good thing (for anyone other than the monopoly, that is)???



The u.s. controls the market in rock drilling bits worldwide. With out those dirlls no oil wells,no water wells etc.
Russia pretty much controls the world mkt in titanium. Without titanium no compressor blades on jet engines.
The police department is a monopoly.
The fire department is a monopoly.
Most municipal services are a monopoly.
Most utilities are monopolies.
Some monopolies work for the benifit of society others work for the benifit of the monopoly.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 7:04:01 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I question if they last anywhere near as long as the mfrs claim.. I have bought ordinary light bulbs, the package says they are to last like 1,000 hours.. but it seems they last no where near that..

I dont trust what bulb mfrs claim at all, especially since mfrs will throw a product out in the market and wait to see what the problems are, like the public/customers are guinea pigs for their projects.. So to pay $50, or $20/bulb for led.. and then have it crap out after not much time.. pfffffttttt




The traffic signals have been in use for long enough to acquire quite a bit of data about the leds. I notice a lot of them showing up surplus as a result of x number of the individual leds failing. It would seem a sure bet that the cities involved are keeping track of lifespan data.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 8:00:54 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

i hate the idea that China could have a monopoly on certain metals and hold the rest of the world hostage to whatever they wish to charge..


Is it just china or would you hate the idea of any country doing that?

any country that has a monopoly, just as any corp that has a monopoly.. are ya'll for monopolies or something? do you see a monopoly as a good thing (for anyone other than the monopoly, that is)???


The u.s. controls the market in rock drilling bits worldwide. With out those dirlls no oil wells,no water wells etc.
Russia pretty much controls the world mkt in titanium. Without titanium no compressor blades on jet engines.
The police department is a monopoly.
The fire department is a monopoly.
Most municipal services are a monopoly.
Most utilities are monopolies.
Some monopolies work for the benifit of society others work for the benifit of the monopoly.


Rock drilling bits- not quite sure why the US would have a monopoly on that unless they have the only metals/materials going into it or unless the price is too low that even the Chinese wont bother making them or some other reason like patents, etc..
the police dept does not have a monopoly on security service as there are gazillions of private security corps providing private policing.. the govt is a monopoly if you want to think that way but I dont include the govt or various govt controlled sectors/depts in my definition of monopoly
I am opposed to utility monopolies or services like cable or land line telephone corps.. which is why i like off the grid as a concept, to keep from financially supporting the sobs.. I dont know enough to do that tho, at this point.. maybe one day when i can dig into all of that..
So sure there are monopolies but that doesnt mean i have to like them..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 8:04:03 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
I question if they last anywhere near as long as the mfrs claim.. I have bought ordinary light bulbs, the package says they are to last like 1,000 hours.. but it seems they last no where near that..

I dont trust what bulb mfrs claim at all, especially since mfrs will throw a product out in the market and wait to see what the problems are, like the public/customers are guinea pigs for their projects.. So to pay $50, or $20/bulb for led.. and then have it crap out after not much time.. pfffffttttt


The traffic signals have been in use for long enough to acquire quite a bit of data about the leds. I notice a lot of them showing up surplus as a result of x number of the individual leds failing. It would seem a sure bet that the cities involved are keeping track of lifespan data.

ok.... if i ever decide to use traffic signal lights in my house i will keep that in mind and see if i can tap that info..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 8:21:15 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

RealOne, you could be right, but there are other benefits to reducing energy consumption. Also, at least where I live, power rates are regulated through a quasi judicial procedure, so it isn't that simple to jack up the rates



kids do what corps cant LOL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glRuwV9IlaY

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 8:47:17 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I provided you with two fairly good sources


You provided a discussion started by some guy on the Internet.


(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 8:51:31 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

I provided you with two fairly good sources

You provided a discussion started by some guy on the Internet.

I suggest you look back to my first post on this thread, and my subsequent post after you replied to me which included a link to an article published by a university.

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 9:32:19 PM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

... a 60 watt is like a candle in a crypt.


Ain't that the truth. My experience with LED lighting is their quality of light is poor. The light they emit causes me to think of what sunlight might look like on an alien world with a blue sun. This is progress?

What would an ancient Sun worshipping cult think? Perhaps this is what the Mayans saw when they looked into the future, an alien world with a blue sun at which point they concluded that time must have ended.


< Message edited by BenevolentM -- 3/14/2012 9:35:24 PM >

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 9:35:13 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I suggest you look back to my first post on this thread


Yup. A discussion started by some guy on the Internet.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 9:48:49 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

I suggest you look back to my first post on this thread

Yup. A discussion started by some guy on the Internet.

Now you are just being selective. The initial post http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4061234 linked to a brief article which referred to the planned obsolescence being initiated by the lighting industry. Then I posted http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4061267 a link to an article from a good source. Ignore them if you wish but that should be sufficient for you to give some credence to the idea at least. If you have any doubts just google "planned obsolescence" and you will see sites with entries like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence and http://www.economist.com/node/13354332 which illustrate planned obsolescence is a wide ranging business strategy.

On the Phoebus Cartel, which the original link refers to, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel states
quote:

The cartel is an important step in the history of global economy because of their alleged involvement in the creation of great-scale planned obsolescence. The cartel reduced competition in the light bulb industry for almost twenty years, and has been accused of preventing technological advances that would have produced longer-lasting light bulbs.


< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 3/14/2012 9:55:26 PM >


_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 9:51:48 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
... a 60 watt is like a candle in a crypt.

Ain't that the truth. My experience with LED lighting is their quality of light is poor. The light they emit causes me to think of what sunlight might look like on an alien world with a blue sun. This is progress?

What would an ancient Sun worshipping cult think? Perhaps this is what the Mayans saw then they looked into the future, an alien world with a blue sun at which point they concluded that time must have ended.


I don't know if LED lights are much worse than CFL's but one of the objections to the banning of incandescent bulbs in Europe was the quality of the light they emit being superior to CFL's. There is a scale of light quality called CRI, which measures its ability to resolve colours properly. LEDs and CFL's are significantly lower on the scale than incandescent bulbs.

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to BenevolentM)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 10:03:33 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

a brief article


Brief article? It's a couple paragraphs, and even labeled "discussion," followed by post from the people discussing it.

That's where I stopped wasting time. But let's take a look.

Your second one, "a link to an article from a good source," is a personal page, not a university publication as you claimed, and it's the "article" it copies is again, a handle of paragraphs copied from an engineering mag--about flashlight lamps. Flashlights.

Then you link to Wikipedia--a definition page, with no specific instances whatsoever.

Then you link to another "article" just a few paragraphs long in the Economist discussing again, the concept. But yay! You actually got one with examples! Not a damn thing about light bulbs, mind you, but closer.

Finally you link again to Wikipedia, about the Phoebus cartel, which indeed, controlled the sale of light bulbs! Alas, not a damn thing about obsolescence, rather, a general report on their attempts to prevent innovation. Perhaps you didn't read to the part where their strategy failed.

I'm selective? Yes. I like to see actual evidence.

You? You don't know what a credible source is--or even a relevant one.

So yeah, we're done here.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 10:37:10 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

a brief article

Brief article? It's a couple paragraphs, and even labeled "discussion," followed by post from the people discussing it.

What is the problem with calling it a "brief article" - that surely is what it is. How many articles do you think have comment sections?

quote:


That's where I stopped wasting time. But let's take a look.

If you're wasting your time, why persist in wasting my time when you obviously don't wish to give any credence to the claims?

quote:


Your second one, "a link to an article from a good source," is a personal page, not a university publication as you claimed, and it's the "article" it copies is again, a handle of paragraphs copied from an engineering mag--about flashlight lamps. Flashlights.

That is quite simply wrong. The website hosting the article is http://www.uow.edu.au/index.html - thus a university published the article which was also published in an engineering magazine. It is relevant because it cites lights for batteries which are essentially the same technology as their mains driven equivalent.

quote:


Then you link to Wikipedia--a definition page, with no specific instances whatsoever.

The wiki page mentions quite a number of technologies (including 100W lightbulbs that the EU banned) and cites a fair few references.

quote:


Then you link to another "article" just a few paragraphs long in the Economist discussing again, the concept. But yay! You actually got one with examples! Not a damn thing about light bulbs, mind you, but closer.

I'm sorry why is it an "article" with inverted commas, is it or isn't it an "article"? It doesn't mention bulbs but big deal - the article makes the point this is a broad practice. That was made clear when I cited it in my post above. Did you seriously expect me to provide you with a bibliography?

quote:


Finally you link again to Wikipedia, about the Phoebus cartel, which indeed, controlled the sale of light bulbs! Alas, not a damn thing about obsolescence, rather, a general report on their attempts to prevent innovation. Perhaps you didn't read to the part where their strategy failed.

You mustn't have read the section I quoted properly. Again I suggest you make a modest effort, and google wording like "Phoebus cartel planned obsolescence" if you are seriously interested in the issue rather than merely here to rubbish the viewpoints you dislike. You will find a good number of articles about it from fairly decent non-crazy sites like http://expertscolumn.com/content/planned-obsolescence-products-designed-fail and http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9205901/Gadgets_built_to_i_not_i_last and it has even come up recently as a consumer issue in the EU http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=WQ&reference=E-2011-001284&language=EN

quote:


I'm selective? Yes. I like to see actual evidence.

You? You don't know what a credible source is--or even a relevant one.

So yeah, we're done here.

We're done here because you dislike what you are being told, and seem to be taking it personally. BTW re. "actual evidence" its a pity I can't send all my burnt out CFL's via CM...

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 10:44:04 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
Bullshit. Let's call them all "scholarly articles," just to move this nonsense along.

You haven't shown ANYTHING about planned obsolescence in light bulbs--if it's so easy to Google, then what was your problem?

Look if you want to complain about CFLs, your original beef, that's easy to do--they don't start well in cold locations. You could also complain some don't last as long as their claims, but stick with major manufacturers, and the problem goes away. And they contain mercury, and can be fragile.

And if you want to bitch about LED disadvantages, that's not hard either. From Wikipedia, your favorite:

Disadvantages
High initial price: LEDs are currently more expensive, price per lumen, on an initial capital cost basis, than most conventional lighting technologies. As of 2010, the cost per thousand lumens (kilolumen) was about $18. The price is expected to reach $2/kilolumen by 2015.[98] The additional expense partially stems from the relatively low lumen output and the drive circuitry and power supplies needed.
Temperature dependence: LED performance largely depends on the ambient temperature of the operating environment. Over-driving an LED in high ambient temperatures may result in overheating the LED package, eventually leading to device failure. An adequate heat sink is needed to maintain long life. This is especially important in automotive, medical, and military uses where devices must operate over a wide range of temperatures, and need low failure rates.
Voltage sensitivity: LEDs must be supplied with the voltage above the threshold and a current below the rating. This can involve series resistors or current-regulated power supplies.[99]
Light quality: Most cool-white LEDs have spectra that differ significantly from a black body radiator like the sun or an incandescent light. The spike at 460 nm and dip at 500 nm can cause the color of objects to be perceived differently under cool-white LED illumination than sunlight or incandescent sources, due to metamerism,[100] red surfaces being rendered particularly badly by typical phosphor-based cool-white LEDs. However, the color rendering properties of common fluorescent lamps are often inferior to what is now available in state-of-art white LEDs.
Area light source: Single LEDs do not approximate a point source of light giving a spherical light distribution, but rather a lambertian distribution. So LEDs are difficult to apply to uses needing a spherical light field. LEDs cannot provide divergence below a few degrees. In contrast, lasers can emit beams with divergences of 0.2 degrees or less.[101]
Electrical Polarity: Unlike incandescent light bulbs, which illuminate regardless of the electrical polarity, LEDs will only light with correct electrical polarity.
Blue hazard: There is a concern that blue LEDs and cool-white LEDs are now capable of exceeding safe limits of the so-called blue-light hazard as defined in eye safety specifications such as ANSI/IESNA RP-27.1–05: Recommended Practice for Photobiological Safety for Lamp and Lamp Systems.[102][103]
Blue pollution: Because cool-white LEDs (i.e., LEDs with high color temperature) emit proportionally more blue light than conventional outdoor light sources such as high-pressure sodium vapor lamps, the strong wavelength dependence of Rayleigh scattering means that cool-white LEDs can cause more light pollution than other light sources. The International Dark-Sky Association discourages using white light sources with correlated color temperature above 3,000 K.[104][not in citation given]
Droop: The efficiency of LEDs tends to decrease as one increases current.[105][106][107][108]

See how easy that was? Instead of this bullshit you're throwing out here?

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/14/2012 10:46:17 PM >

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 10:45:26 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

its a pity I can't send all my burnt out CFL's via CM..


While you're googling, look at the limitations of anecdotal evidence.

By the way, google "planned obsolescence in light bulbs" and you'll see the term "conspiracy theory" come up a lot.

Personally, I think that's why the world trade towers were hit--somebody there was gonna blow the lid off this baby!

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/14/2012 10:49:22 PM >

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 10:56:27 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Bullshit. Let's call them all "scholarly articles," just to move this nonsense along.

You haven't shown ANYTHING about planned obsolescence in light bulbs--if it's so easy to Google, then what was your problem?

I have shown you numerous sources which you choose to call "bullshit". Thats entirely your call but calling it thus or applying sarcasm won't change anything.

quote:


Look if you want to complain about CFLs, your original beef, that's easy to do--they don't start well in cold locations. You could also complain some don't last as long as their claims, but stick with major manufacturers, and the problem goes away. And they contain mercury, and can be fragile.

And if you want to bitch about LED disadvantages, that's not hard either.

CFL's weren't my original beef, rather it was banning ordinary bulbs.

Who cares if they don't start right away? What is a few seconds here or there? lol I use valve amplifiers that take several minutes to work properly.

The problem does not only relate to cheap brands. I actually use Philips mostly. Their incandescent bulbs are much better in terms of lifespan.

quote:


From Wikipedia, your favorite:

Disadvantages...
See how easy that was? Instead of this bullshit you're throwing out here?

I think you need to calm down and tone down your language, and actually learn how to argue without insulting others. My comments are not a personal attack on you.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 3/14/2012 10:57:57 PM >


_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 10:57:54 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Their incandescent bulbs are much better in terms of lifespan.


See, now we're back to that evidence/bullshit thing.

A whole world of evidence--from credible sources that actually address this very issue--says you're wrong on this point.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/14/2012 11:03:21 PM >

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 10:59:27 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

My comments are not a personal attack on you.


Nor taken as such. You're the dude who started impuning motives. I'm just pointing out facts you aren't liking much.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: A Bright Idea - 3/14/2012 11:02:31 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

its a pity I can't send all my burnt out CFL's via CM..

While you're googling, look at the limitations of anecdotal evidence.

By the way, google "planned obsolescence in light bulbs" and you'll see the term "conspiracy theory" come up a lot.

Personally, I think that's why the world trade towers were hit--somebody there was gonna blow the lid off this baby!

Ah I knew ytou would pull the tin-foil accusation out again lol. Its a cheap shot, and untrue. I cited many sites not involved with conspiracy weaving. I searched for four pages with that wording and none of the batshit troofer sites like Infowars and prisonplanet came up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

Their incandescent bulbs are much better in terms of lifespan.

See, now we're back to that evidence/bullshit thing.

I am relating to my own experience. I never had to go through as many CFLs as I did with standard lightbulbs. I cited quite a few that shared the same experience. Again call the opinions of others who have had bad experiences with this technology "bullshit" but thats more a reflection on your character than anything else... lol

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 120
Page:   <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: A Bright Idea Page: <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2024
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.203