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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 8:14:48 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Maybe by FL law althought I lived there for 18 years and I can tell you that it isn't self defense unless he is trying to get into your car or house unless they changed the law since '96.


Florida now has the "no retreat" rule. You are no longer legally obligated to retreat if you feel that you or your property is threatened. You can stand your ground and take action.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
My assessment of the situation is this. Zimmerman was in a car. The shooting occurred a good distance away from his car. The ONLY way it was self defense is if the kid broke into the car, dragged Zimmerman (who weighs 240 to the kid's 140) out and halfway down the street and then got shot. How likely is that?


You're missing one detail. It was inside of a locked/gated community. In other words, the guy was patrolling his home neighborhood. The shooter saw someone who he felt threatened by *inside* a gated community where he shouldn't have been. It was dark and it was raining. No person on this planet can say if the guy did or did not feel threatened except for the guy who was there at that moment. And in our justice system, that equates to an awful lot of reasonable doubt.

The prosecutor has to know he can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy went all Bronson on the kid for no reason. As that seems unlikely, the guy has to be presumed to be innocent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
As for the dispatcher not being an LEO, (remember he called the non emergency number and so got a police dispatcher). In TN and FL, the dispatcher is an LEO. Maybe not in TX but they are where Ive lived.


Doesn't matter. The cops in this very case have already said the guy was under no legal obligation to obey the dispatcher because the dispatcher wasn't there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Maybe your CHL in TX says you just have to feel threatened. If you try that in TN, you'll find yourself making license plates for 10 years. If you wish, I can supply links.


Precisely why I have no intention of moving out of Texas. Who'd have thought Tennessee would end up being more liberal than Texas? Go figure.


FL had the 'no retreat" rule while I was there. There's a big difference between not retreating and actively pursuing.

I caught a kid trying to break into my car in the Driveway once. He ran the other way. If I had shot and killed him, I would still be making matresses or something at Raiford correctional.

Now, I could have chased him down and beat hell out of him and been ok but you can't shoot someone in FL who is not in your dwelling and is trying to retreat. It's the same in TN.

He was inside a gated community but he was still on the street. In both states, you cannot shoot to prevent property crime, only if you feel immenent danger. Again, Zimmerman left the safety of his vehicle and pursued the kid.

As for the 'football player' that went all of 140.

If someone is such a pussy that they feel physically threatened by someone 100# lighter while they're inside a 4000# car, they DONT need to be carrying a gun because they're exactly the type person that should be weeded out by the background checks.

Zimmerman's arrest a few years ago for battery on an officer and resisting arrest should have also precluded him being able to carry.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 3/15/2012 8:17:44 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 8:17:01 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
the shooter left his vehicle ...

Which was parked *inside* a gated community that was his home.

No legs.



It's people like you that make it perfectly understandable why some people want to ban gun ownership.

But in any case, going by your standards as to what constitutes a threat and cause for firing a weapon; if I saw you coming down the street and knew it was you ... I'd shoot you right away and not even think about it, based on what you say here. You are one dangerous person, no mistake.









< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/15/2012 8:23:09 PM >

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 8:20:07 PM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
FL had the 'no retreat" rule while I was there. There's a big difference between not retreating and actively pursuing.

I caught a kid trying to break into my car in the Driveway once. He ran the other way. If I had shot and killed him, I would still be making matresses or something at Raiford correctional.

Now, I could have chased him down and beat hell out of him and been ok but you can't shoot someone in FL who is not in your dwelling and is trying to retreat. It's the same in TN.

He was inside a gated community but he was still on the street. In both states, you cannot shoot to prevent property crime, only if you feel immenent danger. Again, Zimmerman left the safety of his vehicle and pursued the kid.

As for the 'football player' that went all of 140.

If someone is such a pussy that they feel physically threatened by someone 100# lighter while they're inside a 4000# car, they DONT need to be carrying a gun because they're exactly the type person that should be weeded out by the background checks.

Zimmerman's arrest a few years ago for battery on an officer and resisting arrest should have also precluded him being able to carry.


All of what you're saying are things that come out in the days/weeks/months following an incident. At. that. moment. of the shooting, none of this is known.

And again, the cops haven't charged the guy, so there must be some legal reason for it.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 8:22:07 PM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
It's people like you that make it perfectly understandable why some people want to ban gun ownership.


Because I support defending myself when/if the situation calls for it? Yeah..that's a great reason to ban ownership.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 8:23:35 PM   
VioletGray


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray
Seriously? That's what you're going with? HE WAS ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY POUNDS!!!!! Zimmerman had a 100-pound advantage on him! Look at all of his pictures. We're not exactly dealing with DMX here. Some people might say "oh yeah... that's scary looking alright." But those people are bigots.



See my previous post about the lack of scales out there that night. (And pick up your race card while you're at it.) Honestly...when are we going to get to a point in society when the race card stops being thrown at the drop of a hat? It's really sad.


This counts as "at the drop of a hat?" I guess that's code for "mentioning race at all, ever." It doesn't feel iffy to you that he mentioned the boy's race while making the call? What was Trayvon doing that earned him this confrontation at all? Also, anyone unable to tell the difference between a 140 lb person and a 240 lb person is either too blind, or too dumb to carry a pistol.

Can you explain to me why he felt threatened by this teen who was walking to his dad's house? He was inside his car AND he had a gun. That's currently TWO ways to kill someone. As for this bit of ignorance:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
You're missing one detail. It was inside of a locked/gated community. In other words, the guy was patrolling his home neighborhood. The shooter saw someone who he felt threatened by *inside* a gated community where he shouldn't have been.


It's a gated community, not Ft. Knox. What do you mean he "shouldn't" have been there? Who is Zimmerman, or you, or anyone to say that? People in gated community can't have visits from their children?

< Message edited by VioletGray -- 3/15/2012 8:25:05 PM >

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 8:24:03 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
FL had the 'no retreat" rule while I was there. There's a big difference between not retreating and actively pursuing.

I caught a kid trying to break into my car in the Driveway once. He ran the other way. If I had shot and killed him, I would still be making matresses or something at Raiford correctional.

Now, I could have chased him down and beat hell out of him and been ok but you can't shoot someone in FL who is not in your dwelling and is trying to retreat. It's the same in TN.

He was inside a gated community but he was still on the street. In both states, you cannot shoot to prevent property crime, only if you feel immenent danger. Again, Zimmerman left the safety of his vehicle and pursued the kid.

As for the 'football player' that went all of 140.

If someone is such a pussy that they feel physically threatened by someone 100# lighter while they're inside a 4000# car, they DONT need to be carrying a gun because they're exactly the type person that should be weeded out by the background checks.

Zimmerman's arrest a few years ago for battery on an officer and resisting arrest should have also precluded him being able to carry.


All of what you're saying are things that come out in the days/weeks/months following an incident. At. that. moment. of the shooting, none of this is known.

And again, the cops haven't charged the guy, so there must be some legal reason for it.


A lot of the time, if someone isn't deemed a flight risk, the police don't arrest someone until the grand jury meets and comes out with a true bill.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 8:27:19 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
It's people like you that make it perfectly understandable why some people want to ban gun ownership.


Because I support defending myself when/if the situation calls for it? Yeah..that's a great reason to ban ownership.


If the situation calls for it, you're damn right. I've been there and fortunately, the gentlemen in question backed down and went for easier prey after going home for an appropriate underwear change.

Noone was hurt and that's the best possible outcome.

Once they turned their back to me, there was no more threat and I was then and only then allowed to exhale LOL.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 8:30:37 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
It's people like you that make it perfectly understandable why some people want to ban gun ownership.


Because I support defending myself when/if the situation calls for it? Yeah..that's a great reason to ban ownership.




No, because you have a trigger happy constitution and an extraordinarily broad and pathologically paranoid interpretation of what constitutes a 'threat,' and a very loose and unstable estimation of what situations call for firing a weapon at another person.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/15/2012 8:34:25 PM >

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 9:06:02 PM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
It's people like you that make it perfectly understandable why some people want to ban gun ownership.


Because I support defending myself when/if the situation calls for it? Yeah..that's a great reason to ban ownership.


Nah, it's all about what you consider "defending yourself".

I think you know this is bullshit, Zimmerman was taking law enforcement classes in community college, he was sucking all the local yokel's cock, one of those cop groupies, they all liked him, he was a good 'ol boy, "he shouldn't have to pay the rest of his life for one little mistake" blah, blah, heard it a million times, and the kid he shot was just another nigger, ain't nobody gonna miss one.

So quit tooting your little tin horn, you know goddamn well that's how it is.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 9:08:13 PM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray
This counts as "at the drop of a hat?"


Basically, yes. Because all you're seeing is a bunch of things that came out after the fact. "In the moment" on that "dark street in the rain" the guy had to make a choice. And he made it. The rest of what you're saying came out when the lights came on and the clouds parted.

As I said before *no one* on this planet can say if Zimmerman was threatened but Zimmerman himself. You can cry foul all you like. You weren't there.

(in reply to VioletGray)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 9:11:06 PM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
If the situation calls for it, you're damn right. I've been there and fortunately, the gentlemen in question backed down and went for easier prey after going home for an appropriate underwear change.

Noone was hurt and that's the best possible outcome.

Once they turned their back to me, there was no more threat and I was then and only then allowed to exhale LOL.


So the best possible outcome for you is for you to allow a criminal to escape and prey on other innocent victims? Kind of a harsh "best outcome" isn't it? That just tells me you hesitated. A hesitation which could have cost you your life....and might cost someone else theirs after the criminal in question completed their "underwear change." In my CHL class, the instructor said you only pull your weapon out if you intend to use it. And if you use it, you use it to stop the aggressive action and end the threat. Not to fire warning shots to to "scare" the bad guy.

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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 9:13:50 PM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
No, because you have a trigger happy constitution and an extraordinarily broad and pathologically paranoid interpretation of what constitutes a 'threat,' and a very loose and unstable estimation of what situations call for firing a weapon at another person.


Trigger happy? I don't even own a gun. I went through the class, but have yet to decide which gun I want to buy. The rest of your assumptions are just that -- assumptions. You don't know me or how I feel. Nor would you know how I'd feel in the moment when an unknown attacker was threatening me.

Kinda like how you don't know the circumstances of the incident in question...because you weren't there.

That's the one fact the nay-sayers can't argue with. Not one of you were there. I know I wasn't there. I already stated as much. However, I also know that none of you were there. And as such, you can't definitively, without a reasonable doubt, say what happened or how Mr. Zimmerman felt. You can stipulate and you can what if all you like. You weren't there.

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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 9:15:06 PM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
Nah, it's all about what you consider "defending yourself".

I think you know this is bullshit, Zimmerman was taking law enforcement classes in community college, he was sucking all the local yokel's cock, one of those cop groupies, they all liked him, he was a good 'ol boy, "he shouldn't have to pay the rest of his life for one little mistake" blah, blah, heard it a million times, and the kid he shot was just another nigger, ain't nobody gonna miss one.

So quit tooting your little tin horn, you know goddamn well that's how it is.


Nope. Sure don't. And neither do you, despite what your cynical view would have you believe.

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 9:18:53 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		I know it, and you do too.

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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 9:20:28 PM   
VioletGray


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/29/2007
From: Baltimore, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray
This counts as "at the drop of a hat?"


Basically, yes. Because all you're seeing is a bunch of things that came out after the fact. "In the moment" on that "dark street in the rain" the guy had to make a choice. And he made it. The rest of what you're saying came out when the lights came on and the clouds parted.

As I said before *no one* on this planet can say if Zimmerman was threatened but Zimmerman himself. You can cry foul all you like. You weren't there.



Is that how it is? So I can go out and shoot anyone I want, and claim self defense because no one else was there? By ALL accounts Zimmerman approached him. Can you think of a single thing Trayvon did to inspire this reaction? Why is it presumptuous to say that Zimmerman was bigoted, but not presumptuous to say that Trayvon did something to get shot for. How come "innocent until proven guilty" only counts for Zimmerman?

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 9:21:39 PM   
DarqueMirror


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Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline 		"Witnesses told ABC News a fist fight broke out and at one point Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top. Austin Brown, 13, was walking his dog during the time of the altercation and saw both men on the ground but separated. Brown along with several other residents heard someone cry for help, just before hearing a gunshot. Police arrived 60 seconds later and the teen was quickly pronounced dead.

According to the police report, Zimmerman, who was armed with a handgun, was found bleeding from the nose and the back of the head, standing over Martin, who was unresponsive after being shot. An officer at the scene overheard Zimmerman saying, "I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me," the report said. Witnesses told ABC News they heard Zimmerman pronounce aloud to the breathless residents watching the violence unfold "it was self-defense," and place the gun on the ground."

Oh yeah...that 140 lbs "kid" was a real weakling, huh? Such a hapless victim who bloodied a man's nose and head and had him on the ground (by eye-witness accounts).

In light of the above excerpt from the story, it sounds as if Zimmerman was following Martin to make sure he wasn't "up to no good" and Martin took issue with that and a fight ensued. At that point, Zimmerman felt threatened, called for help but found none. Then he did the only thing left for him to do. He defended himself.

If walking near/behind someone is always grounds for a fist fight to break out, we as a society are in serious trouble.

It's at this point I have another little anecdote that is relevant to the current topic. Once, in another gated complex I was living in, I saw a shady character pacing around. So, I began pacing near him, keeping my eye on him. Apparently he took notice of me and walked closer. He didn't instigate a fight, though, he said very meekly "Hey man...I'm not out here trying to rob anyone or anything. I'm waiting on the paper delivery truck so I can start my route....just so you know." And with that, the situation was handled and there was no escalation.


< Message edited by DarqueMirror -- 3/15/2012 9:27:39 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 9:37:47 PM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
No, because you have a trigger happy constitution and an extraordinarily broad and pathologically paranoid interpretation of what constitutes a 'threat,' and a very loose and unstable estimation of what situations call for firing a weapon at another person.


You don't know me or how I feel. Nor would you know how I'd feel in the moment when an unknown attacker was threatening me.


You've been clear enough just in this thread how easily threatened you are and how readily you would respond with a gun and would have shot that person who ran up to you to bum money.

I know plenty of what I need to know.

In several of the places I've lived and worked, you'd be shooting one or two people a week.

Glad you're nowhere near me is all I can say.



(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 9:44:15 PM   
VioletGray


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/29/2007
From: Baltimore, MD
Status: offline 		Even if every word of the above is true, you're STILL making some unnecessary assumptions.

Why do you continue to assume that Trayvon was the aggressor, so enraged about being stopped? Zimmerman is the one with a reputation for aggressive tactics, Zimmerman is the one who in the past has assaulted a police officer, Zimmerman is the one who approached him. We know a fight ensued, and perhaps Zimmerman bit off more than he could chew, but still I doubt it. He could have got hurt when they fell, I find it hard to believe that a 140 pounder is just opening a can of whoop-ass on this 240, unless he's like some MMA cagefighter. Why couldn't it be that Trayvon was the one defending himself?

We know that Trayvons goal for that night was providing skittles for his little brother. What gives you, or anyone the right to police strangers and make sure they're not up to no good? What about Trayvon did you see as threatening?

< Message edited by VioletGray -- 3/15/2012 9:45:35 PM >

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 9:48:26 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Well there ya go, all that bullshit about how Zimmerman didn't know the kid was a kid, or whether he was armed, blah, blah - he fucking tried to beat the kid down and was getting his big fat 240 pound ass whooped by a 140 pound teenager, so he shot the kid for making him look bad, like the chickenshit dumbfuck he is.

If he'd stayed in the fucking car and waited for the cop like he was supposed to instead trying to prove how brave he was with little Black kids, the boy would still be alive, and all these cops wouldn't lose their jobs like they surely will, and deserve to for trying to cover for this moron.

This guy would have never lived this long in the Eighties - a fucking 12 year old would pop a half a dozen caps into you for looking at him sideways - you just don't fuck with anybody that way. This guy is either too dumb to live and got lucky - this time - or he knew the kid was unarmed and a kid.

It was hard times back then for big old dumbass redneck bullies picking on kids half their size, you got no idea how this can get - your kind was kinda scarce for a while there - but keep fuckin' around and you might find out.

You just think you're hard.

< Message edited by xssve -- 3/15/2012 9:49:41 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/15/2012 10:02:08 PM   
DarqueMirror


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Joined: 3/21/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
In several of the places I've lived and worked, you'd be shooting one or two people a week.

Glad you're nowhere near me is all I can say.


And in several of the places I've lived, if you react the way you're suggesting you would, I'd be hearing about you on the news....as the cops investigated your death.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 60
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