RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea...

RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (Full Version)

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DarqueMirror -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/15/2012 10:11:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray Even if every word of the above is true, you're STILL making some unnecessary assumptions. As are you. The difference between us is that despite any assumptions I might be making, I make them with the admission that I wasn't there and don't know what happened. You, however, are making your assumptions as though all the facts of the case were known the instant Zimmerman saw Martin. They weren't. quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray Why do you continue to assume that Trayvon was the aggressor, so enraged about being stopped? Why do you assume he wasn't? quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray We know a fight ensued, and perhaps Zimmerman bit off more than he could chew, but still I doubt it. So you doubt the eye-witness accounts that said Zimmerman was on his back, with Martin standing over him? You doubt the blood coming from his nose and the back of his head? quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray He could have got hurt when they fell, I find it hard to believe that a 140 pounder is just opening a can of whoop-ass on this 240, unless he's like some MMA cagefighter. Not even remotely accurate, and indeed a very common misconception about size and ability. I've known MANY people that size who could kick the ass of someone 100 lbs heavier. And not one single one of them was an "MMA cagefighter." One of my best friends -- a female -- is about 5'6" and 115 lbs "maybe" and she had to be pulled off a guy twice her size by not one, not two, but MULTIPLE guys because the twice-her-size-guy had made creepy comments about her and then grabbed her ass. She wasn't a cagefighter. She wasn't even trained in martial arts. Yet she earned the nickname "Trinity" after handing that guy his ass. The rest of the people at that party knew from then on she was not to be fucked with. quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray Why couldn't it be that Trayvon was the one defending himself? Because it makes logical sense. If Zimmerman was the aggressor, and if he was following Martin as far away as he supposedly was; it would have made more sense for Martin to get to his destination and tell his parents to call the police because a guy was following him. Or call the cops himself. The didn't happen, though. What happened was a confrontation ensued, one guy got bloody and one got dead. Thus, the likely scenario is that he was being followed, didn't like it and went back to confront the guy and tell him to fuck off. quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray What gives you, or anyone the right to police strangers and make sure they're not up to no good? And here we come to the very reason criminal activity is so prevalent. We've gone from a society of "neighbors taking care of neighbors" to one of "it's not your business to make sure someone's not up to no good" and "snitches get stitches." Nice...real nice.

farglebargle -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/15/2012 10:24:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn There is no dispute that the walker never approached or came close the vehicle. There is no dispute that the guy exited his vehicle and pursued the walker. The shooting happened far away from the vehicle. Your story and your reference to what is taught in CHL classes have as much do to with what happened in this case as opera does to a basketball game. Actually it has everything to do with what happened in the case. Your choice to ignore it doesn't change that. If the guy felt threatened, he felt threatened. I wasn't there and neither were you. "I felt threatened" is pretty fucking lame when you're the attacker.

DarqueMirror -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/15/2012 10:26:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle "I felt threatened" is pretty fucking lame when you're the attacker. And far, in this instance, the police have said Zimmerman wasn't. So....his defense isn't lame. Thanks for pointing that out.

VioletGray -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/15/2012 10:44:04 PM)
1.) I shouldn't have to say I wasn't there. If I had been that would have been in the news also. 2.) Why do I assume Trayvon wasn't the aggressor? Because his goal was to get home, Zimmerman approached him, and Zimmerman has a history of aggression and violence. That's why. I'm not saying it's absolutely true, but I have the grounds for an educated guess on that, and you don't. 3.) The report that you quoted said this: "a fist fight broke out and at one point Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top." ON TOP. Not standing over him. So they probably fell together, and Zimmerman landed on the back of his head. What, was Trayon O.C.D., and had to punch him in the back of the head every time he punched him in the face to make it even? 4.) There is no misconception about size and advantage. WHY do you think boxing and MMA have weight divisions? Kazushi Sakuraba is an MMA fighter that fought in a division with no weight classes, and though he was an INCREDIBLE fighter, his first 3 losses came at the hands of men who outweighed him by 50 pounds. If you knew a girl who was attacking a man that was twice her size and winning, it was because he didn't want to fight her. I wouldn't have to explain that to most people. 5.) Assuming that someone who doesn't like being followed would instantly attack is not the logical conclusion. I'm willing to bet that if you thought someone was following you, you wouldn't just rush the guy. What we do know is that the dispatcher told him to stand down and he said, "No, THEY always get away" so we KNOW that he had some pre-concieved notions about what the boy was up to. 6.) There is a HUGE difference between being active when there is suspicious activity and making sure that no one's doing anything suspicious. Would you be o.k. with the police periodically searching every inch of your house to make sure you don't have any drugs or hostages? What about someone who isn't the police, just some random guy who took it upon himself to make sure you're clean?

Edwynn -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/15/2012 10:45:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror In light of the above excerpt from the story, it sounds as if Zimmerman was following Martin to make sure he wasn't "up to no good" and Martin took issue with that and a fight ensued. What part of "the police were on their way" do you not understand? With Zimmerman knowing full well that the proper authorities were on their way, there was no reason whatsoever for him to get out of his vehicle, pursue, then accost the guy. If he felt the need to 'make sure he didn't get away' he could have followed at a safe distance. Had he done that very thing, in less than a minute he would have seen the kid walk to the porch of his father's house, open the door and walk in. How do you know Martin took issue with someone following him to make sure he wasn't "up to no good" instead of the more likely event that Martin took issue with some wacko stranger approaching him from behind in openly threatening manner? quote: At that point, Zimmerman felt threatened By a situation that he purposely put himself in. The kid did not lure him out of the car in attempt to ensnare Zimmerman in a threatening situation, he did it himself, after the dispatcher told him not to for that very reason. quote: called for help but found none. How many people do you know that would jump into a situation like that? Right. Now, how many people do you know that would jump into a situation like that when one of them has a gun? The answers are "Not many" and "None," respectively. quote: Then he did the only thing left for him to do. He defended himself. Oh certainly. If I walk up to a guy minding his own business and punch him, he punches me back, then rears back to swing again, then technically I am defending myself when I shoot him. In this society, we do not consider that a person is 'defending himself' when a person he attacks responds. Get that through your head. quote: If walking near/behind someone is always grounds for a fist fight to break out, we as a society are in serious trouble. If having someone run up to a person to bum change is always grounds to shoot the approacher to death (precisely what you say you would have done), then we as a society are in serious trouble.

farglebargle -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/15/2012 10:49:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle "I felt threatened" is pretty fucking lame when you're the attacker. And far, in this instance, the police have said Zimmerman wasn't. So....his defense isn't lame. Thanks for pointing that out. The police are fucking idiots. If Zimmerman MINDED HIS OWN FUCKING BUSINESS, then he wouldn't have gotten smacked in the face by a kid who weighs nothing. If Zimmerman MINDED HIS OWN FUCKING BUSINESS, then he wouldn't have had his pride hurt by getting beat up by a kid, which he knows is his own fault, because he STUPIDLY STARTED THE FIGHT BY NOT MINDING HIS OWN FUCKING BUSINESS. If Zimmerman MINDED HIS OWN FUCKING BUSINESS, then he wouldn't have had to try to prove he was still a man after getting bitch slapped by a kid, by shooting the kid dead. When someone doesn't MIND THEIR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS, whatever happens is their fucking fault.

Hillwilliam -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/15/2012 10:55:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle "I felt threatened" is pretty fucking lame when you're the attacker. And far, in this instance, the police have said Zimmerman wasn't. So....his defense isn't lame. Thanks for pointing that out. "But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going. " If you are pursuing someone, they are running away from you. Please explain how someone can be attacking you if they are running away.[:D]

Edwynn -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/15/2012 11:04:09 PM)
By this poster's standards of 'threat' and defensive response thereto, Martin (if he had a gun) should have shot Zimmerman as soon as he realized he was being followed by some weirdo with a red sweatshirt on.

KMsAngel -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/15/2012 11:15:26 PM)
[/quote] See my previous post about the lack of scales out there that night. (And pick up your race card while you're at it.) Honestly...when are we going to get to a point in society when the race card stops being thrown at the drop of a hat? It's really sad. [/quote] when being black stops making people persons of interest in a high income neighbourhood.

xssve -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/16/2012 1:40:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn There is no dispute that the walker never approached or came close the vehicle. There is no dispute that the guy exited his vehicle and pursued the walker. The shooting happened far away from the vehicle. Your story and your reference to what is taught in CHL classes have as much do to with what happened in this case as opera does to a basketball game. Actually it has everything to do with what happened in the case. Your choice to ignore it doesn't change that. If the guy felt threatened, he felt threatened. I wasn't there and neither were you. "I felt threatened" is pretty fucking lame when you're the attacker. Hate is just the flip side of fear: if that's your motivation it can't possibly end well.

xssve -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/16/2012 1:46:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KMsAngel quote: See my previous post about the lack of scales out there that night. (And pick up your race card while you're at it.) Honestly...when are we going to get to a point in society when the race card stops being thrown at the drop of a hat? It's really sad. when being black stops making people persons of interest in a high income neighbourhood. Yeah, I think we established that Mr. neighborhood watch captain weighed his opponent and was found wanting, whereupon he decided a fair fight was not in his best interests - as for DM, ditto: caught pulling the race card out of his sleeve, he accuses the other players of cheating.

DarqueMirror -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/16/2012 2:04:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray 1.) I shouldn't have to say I wasn't there. Sure you do, since you're backing Martin like you were there. But then I guess, that's just because of the whole race card thing. He's black...you're black. At least I'm backing Zimmerman for reasons other than a shared race. quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray 2.) Why do I assume Trayvon wasn't the aggressor? Because his goal was to get home, Zimmerman approached him, and Zimmerman has a history of aggression and violence. That's why. I'm not saying it's absolutely true, but I have the grounds for an educated guess on that, and you don't. Again, what grounds? Shared race? Because the article says that Zimmerman followed Martin, not that he "approached": him. There's even a comment from the police that indicated his following of Martin wasn't a crime. So again we have to wonder who approached whom. Had Martin (who was being followed, not approached) had continued on his path to his destination, he'd not have come anywhere close to Zimmerman. He would have gotten to the house, told his people some nut was following him and they'd have called the cops themselves. However, from the evidence we currently have, we see that the two came to blows. Why would he come to blows with someone just following him? The answer is because he went back to confront the guy and it didn't work out for him. So don't sit there and say you have the "grounds" for an educated guess and I don't. We both have access to the same information. You're siding with the black kid (for presumably obvious reasons) and I'm siding with the guy witnesses said was on the ground. quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray 3.) The report that you quoted said this: "a fist fight broke out and at one point Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top." ON TOP. Not standing over him. So they probably fell together, and Zimmerman landed on the back of his head. What, was Trayon O.C.D., and had to punch him in the back of the head every time he punched him in the face to make it even? So now you're a forensic analyst about what "probably happened" based on what you've read....or is it again based on the shared race? quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray 4.) There is no misconception about size and advantage. WHY do you think boxing and MMA have weight divisions? Kazushi Sakuraba is an MMA fighter that fought in a division with no weight classes, and though he was an INCREDIBLE fighter, his first 3 losses came at the hands of men who outweighed him by 50 pounds. If you knew a girl who was attacking a man that was twice her size and winning, it was because he didn't want to fight her. I wouldn't have to explain that to most people. I don't care why MMA has weight divisions. That doesn't prove that someone Martin's size and weight can't kick the ass of someone twice his size. That's what the whole point of most martial arts is. (Martial arts is the last "M" and the "A" in "MMA." Many martial arts teach that the size of your opponent is not a factor in whether or not you can defeat him. Had you mentioned boxing, you'd have had a point. But modern MMA stemmed from the old ultimate fighting championship shows where they'd have a tiny karate master fighting a sumo wrestler. Size doesn't matter. Considering your obvious ignorance of the martial arts, I can see why you cling to this point. But you are wrong. And the moment you take any sort of a martial arts class -- karate, kung fu, ju-jitsu, etc. You'll learn this. quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray 5.) Assuming that someone who doesn't like being followed would instantly attack is not the logical conclusion. I'm willing to bet that if you thought someone was following you, you wouldn't just rush the guy. What we do know is that the dispatcher told him to stand down and he said, "No, THEY always get away" so we KNOW that he had some pre-concieved notions about what the boy was up to. And assuming he didn't attack because you share the same race and you share the same "outrage" over the incident as the other people playing the race card doesn't hold water either. I never said I'd just rush someone who was following me. However, some people would at least say something. Then the follower would reply, words would be exchanged, and things would escalate. That's what I believe happened. You have your belief, I have mine. But as I've said numerous times, neither of us were there. quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray 6.) There is a HUGE difference between being active when there is suspicious activity and making sure that no one's doing anything suspicious. Would you be o.k. with the police periodically searching every inch of your house to make sure you don't have any drugs or hostages? What about someone who isn't the police, just some random guy who took it upon himself to make sure you're clean? If that random guy was following me? I'd ask him why and then we'd have a chat. I certainly wouldn't be offended if he was trying to keep the neighborhood safe. Hell, I'd probably be out there with him. This story isn't about some cop entering someone's home uninvited or a black captain breaking into someone's home to check them out. This story is about a guy watching his own neighborhood, seeing something he thought was suspicious and acting on it. I'd much rather live in this guy's neighborhood than that of people who tell you to "mind your own business" just because you happen to glance their way or those who'd ignore your car/house alarm because they don't want to get involved and be called "snitches."

xssve -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/16/2012 2:10:39 AM)
quote: I don't care why MMA has weight divisions. That doesn't prove that someone Martin's size and weight can't kick the ass of someone twice his size. That's what the whole point of most martial arts is. (Martial arts is the last "M" and the "A" in "MMA." Many martial arts teach that the size of your opponent is not a factor in whether or not you can defeat him. Had you mentioned boxing, you'd have had a point. But modern MMA stemmed from the old ultimate fighting championship shows where they'd have a tiny karate master fighting a sumo wrestler. Size doesn't matter. Considering your obvious ignorance of the martial arts, I can see why you cling to this point. But you are wrong. And the moment you take any sort of a martial arts class -- karate, kung fu, ju-jitsu, etc. You'll learn this. Uh, that's why the dumbfuck shoulda stayed in the car.

DarqueMirror -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/16/2012 2:27:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KMsAngel when being black stops making people persons of interest in a high income neighbourhood. Being black....no. Being alone in the dark and wearing a hooded sweatshirt...maybe.

DarqueMirror -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/16/2012 2:28:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve Uh, that's why the dumbfuck shoulda stayed in the car. Shoulda, coulda, woulda. When you're in that situation, you make the best choice for you. Zimmerman made what he thought was a perfectly viable choice. If the guy's walking through houses, you can't very well follow in a car. And if you want to be able to show the police where he goes, you need to see where he goes.

Aswad -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/16/2012 3:47:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror As I said before no one on this planet can say if Zimmerman was threatened but Zimmerman himself. You can cry foul all you like. You weren't there. Anyone can pull a trigger and claim to have felt threatened. In fact, most people actually do feel threatened when they commit murder. The question is whether we consider it killing or murder, and the distinction with regard to self defense lies in having a reasonable indication that there was due cause to perceive an immediate and credible threat. But here's the cheat sheet: you don't pursue a threat, and certainly not with intent to provoke. If you want to pursue threats, become a cop and get paid to do so. Health, al-Aswad. P.S.: The father could make a better case he feels threatened by Zimmerman than the latter could ever hope to make with regard to the situation referenced here. If he were to indulge in some "self defense" on Zimmerman, do you think you would still be all "we can't know" and the cops still be all "maybe we'll pick him up later"?

DarqueMirror -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/16/2012 3:53:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Anyone can pull a trigger and claim to have felt threatened. That's true. But then again, who's to say they weren't threatened? quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad But here's the cheat sheet: you don't pursue a threat, and certainly not with intent to provoke. Most wouldn't. But someone who was trying to ensure his neighborhood's safety might...at least enough to be able to direct cops to the perceived threat when they arrive. quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad If you want to pursue threats, become a cop and get paid to do so. That wouldn't help much. You're saying that unless you're a cop, you can't be concerned about your neighbor's safety? If that's true, society is in bigger trouble than we all thought.

farglebargle -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/16/2012 4:13:08 AM)
quote: That's true. But then again, who's to say they weren't threatened? If you cause the situation where you're threatened it's no-ones fault but your own.

VioletGray -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/16/2012 5:20:00 AM)
LoL So every single point that I've made you've mentally scribbled over with a sharpie and wrote, "because they're both black." Zimmerman has a history of being aggressive, people have complained about his tactics before, he's even assaulted a cop, but you find it easier to believe that I suspect him because the victim and I are both black. I do believe that on some subconscious level you know that your reasoning doesn't hold up, and the baseless accusation that I support Trayvon because we're both black is easier for you to come to terms with. You "don't care" why they have weight divisions in martial arts? That's really what you're going with? quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror I don't care why MMA has weight divisions. That doesn't prove that someone Martin's size and weight can't kick the ass of someone twice his size. That's what the whole point of most martial arts is. (Martial arts is the last "M" and the "A" in "MMA." Many martial arts teach that the size of your opponent is not a factor in whether or not you can defeat him. Had you mentioned boxing, you'd have had a point. But modern MMA stemmed from the old ultimate fighting championship shows where they'd have a tiny karate master fighting a sumo wrestler. Size doesn't matter. Considering your obvious ignorance of the martial arts, I can see why you cling to this point. But you are wrong. And the moment you take any sort of a martial arts class -- karate, kung fu, ju-jitsu, etc. You'll learn this. Dude, those guys who can choke out guys several times their size have at LEAST a decade of training under their belts. You've really just proven my point for me. In an environment where people train to fight full time, they have seperate weight divisions because they understand that when two people have the same training, the heavier guy has the advantage. There's a saying in boxing : " a lightweight's powerpunch is a heavyweight's jab." I trained in Kuoshu and Japanese martial arts, my mom is a 5th degree black belt, I I'm willing to say I have at least SOME knowledge of the subject! But overall I think that even you know that your logic crumbles here. Your mistake from the outset was your baseless assumptions. The walls of your argument can't hold up if the foundation is questionable.

Hillwilliam -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/16/2012 6:25:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror If that random guy was following me? I'd ask him why and then we'd have a chat. I certainly wouldn't be offended if he was trying to keep the neighborhood safe. Hell, I'd probably be out there with him. This story isn't about some cop entering someone's home uninvited or a black captain breaking into someone's home to check them out. This story is about a guy watching his own neighborhood, seeing something he thought was suspicious and acting on it. I'd much rather live in this guy's neighborhood than that of people who tell you to "mind your own business" just because you happen to glance their way or those who'd ignore your car/house alarm because they don't want to get involved and be called "snitches." If said guy starts yelling and pulls a gun what do you do? Do you hang around and 'reason' with him or do you try to make yourself a distant fast moving target? If the same guy catches you, do you lay there and whimper or do you use hands, feet and teeth and whatever else is handy to try to do unto him first? For all we know, the young man WAS trying to get home and tell his parents about the watch captains actions as you suggested he do. He didn't make it. I checked FL Law. You can't pursue and use deadly force. My TN instructor made if abundantly clear that if you do, you WILL go to jail unless you can show imminent physical danger to a third party. Ive asked you twice to show me in TX law where you can pursue and use deadly force to prevent suspected property crime. You have not done so.

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