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Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 7:00:02 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		So not wanting to derail another thread I'm starting this one. Yes, I know this isn't the first time it's come up but there was a fascinating statement made... or at least interesting to me.

quote:

...if the relationship is all about love and romance with a bit of kink it is going to end up the bedroom only, weekend warrior type of relationship, not something very deep on the kink or submission side.


Opinions? Is this so in your experience? Clearly, you can't add "love" into the equation without it changing things dramatically, but are those changes so simple to predict?

(and yes, the regulars know that I fit squarely into the "all about love & romance" category and no, I don't care whether that makes me a "weekend warrior type".)



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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 7:28:39 AM   
sincelo


Posts: 122
Joined: 12/30/2011
Status: offline 		I personally don't think so. You can love people and still have authority over them. And romance is subjective. Some people think getting flowers is romantic while other think it is romantic to be taken to the mountains and tied up to a tree.

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 7:31:07 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sincelo
I personally don't think so. You can love people and still have authority over them.

Sure you can. I had two children I loved. That didn't stop me from wielding authority over them. But I absolutely acknowledge that the ways and purposes I'll wield that authority are VASTLY different in a loving relationship versus with random strangers. It's like an entirely different game so the rules of "winning" are different also.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 7:32:59 AM   
peppermint


Posts: 5173
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline 		Who is to say what is deep?  No one can look into another's mind and know what they are thinking or how submissive or dominant they are.  Over and over again in these forums I have seen it written that not all D/s or M/s relationships are the same.  You do not NEED sadomasochism to have a working D/s or M/s relationship.  If it works for you, then it's a good relationship.  If there is romance and love and kink together, who is to say it's not kinky enough?  Not kinky enough for who and whose business is it anyway?  Quite frankly, it's none of my business how others do their kink.  It's also none of anyone else's business how I do mine. 

This all comes down to some saying their brand of kink is better than everyone else's brand of kink.  BS!! 

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 7:35:42 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline 		IT is fascinating to me the different spins people have on their relationships. What is totally normal for one, is wacko to another.

I never looked for a Master, it just happened, and I never had an interest in BDSM. It was introduced and I participated because of love. Its been a journey of understanding.

In my case, BDSM happened because of love, I actually changed my way of thinking because Love of the man. Love gave him authority. Without love, Id be saying "KISS MY ASS, YOU WANT ME TO DO WHAT???" lol.

I think love enriches the experience, I cant imagine giving someone authority without it. But thats just me, and shows how narrow minded Ive been. I see many thinking love is weak or fantasy, I think many have never experienced the real thing with someone they trust. SO therefore its fantasy.

FOr me that is where it all started, thats where the magic is and makes a scene SUPERIOR.

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 7:57:02 AM   
Madame4a


Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline 		I think its a crappy judgement... unless the person wants to define "deep"..not sure where this statement came from butultimately, my assumption is that their relationship is deep, and if you don't come close to the same type.. yours is not. *rolling my eyes* long live the ONE TRUE WAY...

blah..

my relationship is ALL those things and more.. and deep and significant as shit...


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

So not wanting to derail another thread I'm starting this one. Yes, I know this isn't the first time it's come up but there was a fascinating statement made... or at least interesting to me.

quote:

...if the relationship is all about love and romance with a bit of kink it is going to end up the bedroom only, weekend warrior type of relationship, not something very deep on the kink or submission side.


Opinions? Is this so in your experience? Clearly, you can't add "love" into the equation without it changing things dramatically, but are those changes so simple to predict?

(and yes, the regulars know that I fit squarely into the "all about love & romance" category and no, I don't care whether that makes me a "weekend warrior type".)





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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 8:15:23 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Peppermint Said: Who is to say what is deep?
Madam4a said: ]I think its a crappy judgement.

Both of these align well with the problem I've had figuring out how our actual marriage maps into BDSM-think. What I've come to conclude is that there is no simple 1-10 scale that you can measure something as complex as an interpersonal authority dynamic with. I tend to look at dynamics more like those pin sculptures you can press your face against and get the 3d representation of your face on the other side. Depending on which pin you're looking at, it's either a "deep pin" or a "shallow pin".

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 8:23:32 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Respect my Authoritay!!!!




Attachment (1)

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 8:26:17 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Not that I'm necessarily agreeing with the weekend warrior thing....

I do think there are cases where people do tend to change what they consider the highest priority in the structure of what they have between them.  I know there are a lot of s-types out there who say that if they do not love someone, they can not submit.  However, you can't leave out the other segment of folks who begin their connection on a D/s level first, (the authority) and then fall in love over time. 

For some in that category, as the relationship progresses, being in love with each other becomes the more important factor of the relationship and authority becomes second.  Some others give up the authority factor all together and decide they are best suited as partners, rather than sharing a D/s dynamic.


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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 8:28:04 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Hogwash. Really. All these off the wall judgements about other people's relationships...what's the point? Those who say that you cant have it all are probably speaking from their own disappointment.

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 8:46:58 AM   
WestBaySlave


Posts: 501
Joined: 9/24/2008
Status: offline
I don't not see love, romance, and so forth as contradicting with dominance. However if someone self described as having a

quote:

relationship [...] all about love and romance with a bit of kink


Then I would think non-D/s with a bit of kinky play unless told otherwise.


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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 8:50:01 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
...folks who begin their connection on a D/s level first, (the authority) and then fall in love over time.  For some in that category, as the relationship progresses, being in love with each other becomes the more important factor of the relationship and authority becomes second.  Some others give up the authority factor all together and decide they are best suited as partners, rather than sharing a D/s dynamic.


An interesting point. I would assume that all relationships morph over time if the time period you're looking at is measured in decades. Satisfaction within the relationship is going to be determined by whether both parties changed together or not. By the time a relationship has gone a decade+, I'd like to believe that random stranger's opinions aren't really that relevant.

But it's still true that you can't add love into the equation without serious bedrock shifts... at least any sort of "love" I could conceive of as love. It's not hard for me to see how the impact of my love for Carol would be construed as "weekend warrior". I could support that definition if I wanted to. I will not dominate Carol the way I might a random stranger in a business context (eg: without consideration to consent or consequence -- I won't force her). My love for her definitely puts a soft edge on everything and prohibits certain things entirely. On the other hand, that same love is a deeply influential tool with her -- hence her willingness to adjust even her sense of right & wrong to match mine.

In the end, I suspect love is a two edged sword and both edges are very, very sharp.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 9:09:07 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WestBaySlave
Then I would think non-D/s with a bit of kinky play unless told otherwise.

Wow! Now THERE is an entirely radical thought. You mean it's actually possible to listen to the people in the relationship and assume they have some clue what they are talking about? That thought right there is going to rock the [online] BDSM world *chuckles*. You should write a book.

More seriously, even the statement you gave is open to a lot of interpretation. I would absolutely say my marriage is all about love & romance. I identify "kink" as some sort of bizarre sexual activity involving midgets. So I might well make the above statement. However, if I was making that statement then I have not really said anything at all about our dynamic. I've identified love and romance as the core pillars of the relationship and I've said we don't do a lot of elaborate sex.

Carol, the shy, non-exhibitionist, introvert, still walked into the local, small town (very small town... maybe 1500 people... everyone literally knows everyone) restaurant virtually bare breasted on my command.

Looking at another local couple we know (and like a lot). On one hand, when she gets out of line, he will physically smack her down. On the other hand, I sat in their living room and was astonished that she wouldn't shave her head on command (a thing which is, to me, basic and trivial). So how am I supposed to evaluate that? I've sort of gotten to "I know it when I see it in person" sort of mindset. They seem "M/s" to me because of a highly complex interaction between them that has very strong authority aspects which are pervasive and works for them. The specifics of this or that aren't worth measuring but they are fun to talk about when we visit.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 9:14:21 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
An interesting point. I would assume that all relationships morph over time if the time period you're looking at is measured in decades. Satisfaction within the relationship is going to be determined by whether both parties changed together or not. By the time a relationship has gone a decade+, I'd like to believe that random stranger's opinions aren't really that relevant.

But it's still true that you can't add love into the equation without serious bedrock shifts... at least any sort of "love" I could conceive of as love. It's not hard for me to see how the impact of my love for Carol would be construed as "weekend warrior". I could support that definition if I wanted to. I will not dominate Carol the way I might a random stranger in a business context (eg: without consideration to consent or consequence -- I won't force her). My love for her definitely puts a soft edge on everything and prohibits certain things entirely. On the other hand, that same love is a deeply influential tool with her -- hence her willingness to adjust even her sense of right & wrong to match mine.

In the end, I suspect love is a two edged sword and both edges are very, very sharp.


I don't think it's so much the random stranger's opinion that is the important part here.  It's more that some relationships do morph over time.  There used to be a lot more discussions on the forums about this happening.  When it is one person's plan all along, it used to be called bait and switch.  Meaning a person feigns interest in kink and/or authority dynamics long enough to get the other person interested, and then it goes to what is basically a vanilla life over time.  That's not to say everyone does it intentionally.  Some people just lose interest in it.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 9:16:21 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Well yes, but I wouldn't call the "bait and switch" thing morphing. I'd call it honorless asshattery. In that scenario, the entire initial part of the relationship was a fiction.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 9:17:15 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		My first response was bull shit... but as I am working out some things said in another thread and in my own life, I paused. Then Lady Pact posted. Nail... head... lol I decided to sort some things out from both these threads and private emails and try to make sense of things.

However, I can see some truth in what Lady Pact said and then what Jeff has posted after that. So in working out my own 'stuff', I just wanted to say... thank you, because as I sort out my 'stuff' I think these two posts will help. I'm in transition and if I figure out that transition, I may have something to add here.



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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 9:19:58 AM   
poise


Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

.....if the relationship is all about love and romance with a bit of kink it is going to end up the bedroom only,
weekend warrior type of relationship, not something very deep on the kink or submission side.


I have to wonder if the author of your referenced statement mistyped or something because my
thoughts are completely opposite to those. Heck, maybe I’m an oddball.

We can have kink every day of the week, and twice on Sunday, but without the love and romance,
the authority can go no further than skin deep and stagnates until the next kinky episode.
How is my submission expected to thrive and reach a more joyous depth if there is an on and off switch?
Love and romance is what inspires me to offer more of myself, and to do so with consistency.


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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 9:21:52 AM   
SaintJohn


Posts: 15
Joined: 4/28/2012
Status: offline 		Man created God to have Authority over him.

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 9:22:33 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Jeff, you said that Carol will alter her personal ethical code for you. And you dont see that as ultimate authority?

That level of obedience, where a person doesnt just obey becuase they were following orders and "had" to is powerful stuff.

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 9:22:44 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		That quote is exactly opposite to my experience. We started as friends, falling in love, interested only in a fwb relationship. Because of love, and the fact that he makes absolutely great decisions which are totally trustworthy, we've wound up in a TPE.

In fact, where we are is precisely where we both swore we didn't want to go. He wasn't interested in being a slave, I sure as hell didn't want to be one. But because he loves me, I can trust him to have this much power over me. If he didn't love me, I wouldn't ever believe that my well being would always be his first criteria.

Without love, it could only have been some weekend kink. Not even bedroom submission because I wouldn't have gone that far if he didn't love me. Submission for me comes after love, never without it.

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