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RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 7:10:53 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The funny thing is that executive privilege is for the executive

Not for the Department of (ahem) Justice

So either our little floppy-eared constitutional scholar doesnt know what executive privilege means, how it applies

Or he lied about his involvement



This fantastical diatribe of mouth foaming untruths is sad and pathetic.

Where do you get misinformed, incorrect, idiotic, blithering notions such as this? 

Constitutional scholars, precedent,  (and the supreme court) have you wrong at every letter.

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RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 7:12:12 AM   
subrob1967


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Hey guys, I have an idea for a brand new catch phrase...

Holder lied, people died! How's that for exciting and new? Oh yeah, for those of you who say the President didn't know. I give you this video of White House Press Secretary announcing Obama's bold new plans in 09.


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RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 7:22:15 AM   
mnottertail


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How about this, we will trade you Holder for W?

LOL.

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RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 7:31:37 AM   
Sanity


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Obamas involvement is "evolving"



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RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 7:32:20 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

How about this, we will trade you Holder for W?

LOL.



You sure you want W and not the mastermind Cheney, or maybe Rove? Hell, take all three in exchange for Obama and Holder.

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RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 7:45:41 AM   
papassion


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The Obama gang says this investigation was started by Bush. There were probably investigations the Bush Justice Department started regarding gun trafficking. But the CURRENT "gun walking" investigation. Did Bush's Justice Department start this one? If so, and there are BIG problems with it, Your own common sense tells you Obama would be GLAD it is being investigated and GLADLY release all documents that would blame bush! No, something stinks and that stink is comming from the
White House!

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 8:00:48 AM   
mnottertail


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I wonder if we got tinfoil and Ron Paul and Neal Boortz together if we could pencil out the conspiracy?

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RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 8:42:12 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


The Obama gang says this investigation was started by Bush. There were probably investigations the Bush Justice Department started regarding gun trafficking. But the CURRENT "gun walking" investigation. Did Bush's Justice Department start this one? If so, and there are BIG problems with it, Your own common sense tells you Obama would be GLAD it is being investigated and GLADLY release all documents that would blame bush! No, something stinks and that stink is comming from the
White House!

Actually the gun walking stuff did begin under Bush and Issa actually voted to fund it in 2007. Investigate the Merida project and Operation Gunrunner.
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/127288.pdf
from the above
quote:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) began a Southwest border
initiative dubbed Project Gunrunner in FY2004 that aims to deny firearms to criminal
organizations in Mexico, and to combat firearms-related violence affecting communities on both
sides of the border. 52 The number of ATF personnel dedicated to Project Gunrunner has
increased in recent years. In FY2006 and FY2007, around 100 special agents and 25 industry
operations investigators were dedicated to Project Gunrunner, while by March 2009, the numbers
had increased to 148 special agents and 59 industry operations investigators.53 From FY2004
through mid-February 2009, ATF referred almost 800 cases for prosecution involving more than
1,600 defendants, including almost 400 cases for firearms trafficking involving more than 1,000
defendants and almost 13,000 guns.54
In addition to these efforts in the United States, under the Mérida Initiative, ATF received $4.5
million for the deployment of eTrace firearms tracking technology to U.S. Consulates in Mexico
to combat arms trafficking.55 In FY2008, Mexico submitted more than 7,500 recovered guns for
tracing, showing that most originated in Texas, Arizona, and California.56


< Message edited by DomKen -- 6/21/2012 8:45:55 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 9:01:38 AM   
mnottertail


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and contrary to popular belief many guns got away in the first go round as well.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 10:26:01 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

and contrary to popular belief many guns got away in the first go round as well.

That would be Operation Wide Receiver part of Operation Gunrunner specifically authorized by the Bush admin and funding voted for by used car dealer Issa.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 10:34:00 AM   
mnottertail


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and car thief and gun law violater himself, Darrell Issa.   Give all the credit due this fine example of teabagger.  

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 10:34:42 AM   
papassion


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Couple of things here. If "a lot of guns got away in the first go round as well," what made them think more guns was a better idea? why can't they find whoever authorized the latest operation? Mexico has publically pitched a bitch about this, so its not any multicountry secret or national security issue. What reason would Obama have to claim executive priviledge?

Gun shops keep records. You know who is buying them. Drug dealers are shooting people so you know where the gun ends up. I don't know how your
law enforcement works, but here, they pretend to be BUYERS and after a buy, arrest the seller. then follow the chain up to the main man. They don't put MORE drugs in the community! Same for guns. You pretend to be a buyer. You get the bad guys WITHOUT putting more guns out there! Only a retarded moron would think selling guns and TRYING to track them is a good idea. Then again, we're talking about how the Federal government thinks.

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 10:42:32 AM   
mnottertail


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Couple things here.

If Mexico has pitched a bitch, its all known.   On to the next thing, they need not harrass the DOJ for frivolous papers.  The investigation was not looking into who started it.

We know who is buying them, we dont know if they are waltzing around to many places buying them and strawmanning purchases.

I say we, cuz I am one of those guys who keep records. 



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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 10:51:44 AM   
subrob1967


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Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


The Obama gang says this investigation was started by Bush. There were probably investigations the Bush Justice Department started regarding gun trafficking. But the CURRENT "gun walking" investigation. Did Bush's Justice Department start this one? If so, and there are BIG problems with it, Your own common sense tells you Obama would be GLAD it is being investigated and GLADLY release all documents that would blame bush! No, something stinks and that stink is comming from the
White House!

Actually the gun walking stuff did begin under Bush and Issa actually voted to fund it in 2007. Investigate the Merida project and Operation Gunrunner.
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/127288.pdf
from the above
quote:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) began a Southwest border
initiative dubbed Project Gunrunner in FY2004 that aims to deny firearms to criminal
organizations in Mexico, and to combat firearms-related violence affecting communities on both
sides of the border. 52 The number of ATF personnel dedicated to Project Gunrunner has
increased in recent years. In FY2006 and FY2007, around 100 special agents and 25 industry
operations investigators were dedicated to Project Gunrunner, while by March 2009, the numbers
had increased to 148 special agents and 59 industry operations investigators.53 From FY2004
through mid-February 2009, ATF referred almost 800 cases for prosecution involving more than
1,600 defendants, including almost 400 cases for firearms trafficking involving more than 1,000
defendants and almost 13,000 guns.54
In addition to these efforts in the United States, under the Mérida Initiative, ATF received $4.5
million for the deployment of eTrace firearms tracking technology to U.S. Consulates in Mexico
to combat arms trafficking.55 In FY2008, Mexico submitted more than 7,500 recovered guns for
tracing, showing that most originated in Texas, Arizona, and California.56



It also ENDED in 07
quote:

Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF's special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF's assistant director for the office of field operations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal#cite_note-tpm1-26

*note, this information is based on this memo.* source


However, Kenny... Operation Fast & Furious STARTED in November 2009, and ran for 14 MONTHS, ending on January 25, 2011. Sorry, no blaming Bush this time, F&F had different objectives than Wide Receiver... Wide receiver, Bush's operation's objective was to arrest the straw buyers AND the cartel buyers when the guns were exchanged IN THE US, before they got to Mexico... It lasted less than two weeks but was shut down when they lost track of ONE DOZEN guns.

F&F's objective was to let the guns transfer from the buyers hands, allow them to be smuggled INTO Mexico, and Mexican cartel hands, without any interdiction... BTW, The ATF let over 1,600 guns walk under Obama's F&F

Even YOU can see the difference between the two operations.






< Message edited by subrob1967 -- 6/21/2012 10:55:44 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 11:20:59 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


The Obama gang says this investigation was started by Bush. There were probably investigations the Bush Justice Department started regarding gun trafficking. But the CURRENT "gun walking" investigation. Did Bush's Justice Department start this one? If so, and there are BIG problems with it, Your own common sense tells you Obama would be GLAD it is being investigated and GLADLY release all documents that would blame bush! No, something stinks and that stink is comming from the
White House!

Actually the gun walking stuff did begin under Bush and Issa actually voted to fund it in 2007. Investigate the Merida project and Operation Gunrunner.
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/127288.pdf
from the above
quote:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) began a Southwest border
initiative dubbed Project Gunrunner in FY2004 that aims to deny firearms to criminal
organizations in Mexico, and to combat firearms-related violence affecting communities on both
sides of the border. 52 The number of ATF personnel dedicated to Project Gunrunner has
increased in recent years. In FY2006 and FY2007, around 100 special agents and 25 industry
operations investigators were dedicated to Project Gunrunner, while by March 2009, the numbers
had increased to 148 special agents and 59 industry operations investigators.53 From FY2004
through mid-February 2009, ATF referred almost 800 cases for prosecution involving more than
1,600 defendants, including almost 400 cases for firearms trafficking involving more than 1,000
defendants and almost 13,000 guns.54
In addition to these efforts in the United States, under the Mérida Initiative, ATF received $4.5
million for the deployment of eTrace firearms tracking technology to U.S. Consulates in Mexico
to combat arms trafficking.55 In FY2008, Mexico submitted more than 7,500 recovered guns for
tracing, showing that most originated in Texas, Arizona, and California.56



It also ENDED in 07
quote:

Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF's special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF's assistant director for the office of field operations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal#cite_note-tpm1-26

*note, this information is based on this memo.* source


However, Kenny... Operation Fast & Furious STARTED in November 2009, and ran for 14 MONTHS, ending on January 25, 2011. Sorry, no blaming Bush this time, F&F had different objectives than Wide Receiver... Wide receiver, Bush's operation's objective was to arrest the straw buyers AND the cartel buyers when the guns were exchanged IN THE US, before they got to Mexico... It lasted less than two weeks but was shut down when they lost track of ONE DOZEN guns.

F&F's objective was to let the guns transfer from the buyers hands, allow them to be smuggled INTO Mexico, and Mexican cartel hands, without any interdiction... BTW, The ATF let over 1,600 guns walk under Obama's F&F

Even YOU can see the difference between the two operations.

Operation Gunrunner and the Merida project did not end in 2007. Both continue to this date. Operation Wide Receiver shut down once the Bush ATF lost the very first shipment of guns they sold to the cartels.

F&F was the same basic operation with the intention of back tracing the smuggling chain once they intercepted the guns in Mexico.

The only reason this is even under investigation is because of the right wing conspiracy nuts who believe this was part of a secret Obama administration plan to ban gun sales in the US.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 1:39:48 PM   
subrob1967


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Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The only reason this is even under investigation is because of the right wing conspiracy nuts who believe this was part of a secret Obama administration plan to ban gun sales in the US.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/



You and Rachel Maddow are right Ken, it was the vast right wing conspiracy that let over 2000 guns get purchased and smuggled into Mexico, kill over 300 Mexicans, and one US Border Patrol agent... I admit it, the investigation had nothing to do with

quote:

On January 25, 2011, U.S. Attorney Burke announced the first details of the case to become officially public, marking the end of Operation Fast and Furious. At a news conference in Phoenix, he reported a 53-count indictment of 20 suspects for buying hundreds of guns intended for illegal export between September 2009 and December 2010. Newell, who was at the conference, called Fast and Furious a "phenomenal case," while denying that guns had been deliberately allowed to walk into Mexico.[3][24]

Altogether, 2,020 firearms were bought by straw purchasers during Fast and Furious.[3] These included AK-47 variants, Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles, .38 caliber revolvers, and FN Five-sevens.[34] As of October 20, 2011, 389 had been recovered in the US and 276 had been recovered in Mexico. The rest remained on the streets, unaccounted for.[15] Most of the guns went to the Sinaloa Cartel, while others made their way to El Teo and La Familia.[2][25]

Since the end of Operation Fast and Furious, related firearms have continued to be discovered in criminal hands. As of October 2011, guns found at about 170 crime scenes in Mexico were linked to Fast and Furious.[7] U.S. Representative Darrell Issa (R–CA–49), has estimated that more than 200 Mexicans were killed by guns linked to the operation.[35] In June 2011, Carlos Canino, an ATF agent at the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City, testified before Congress that Fast and Furious guns showed up at nearly 200 crime scenes. [36] Reflecting on the operation, Attorney General Eric Holder said that the United States government is "...losing the battle to stop the flow of illegal guns to Mexico,"[37] and that the carnage linked to Operation Fast and Furious is most likely to continue for years, as more guns appear at Mexican crime scenes.[38]

In April 2011, a large cache of weapons, 40 traced to Fast and Furious but also including military-grade weapons difficult to obtain legally in the US such as an anti-aircraft machine gun and grenade launcher, was found in the home of Jose Antonio Torres Marrufo, a prominent Sinaloa Cartel member, in Ciudad Juárez, Mexico. Torres Marrufo was indicted, but evaded law enforcement for a brief time.[39][40] Finally, on February 4, 2012 Marrufo was arrested by Mexican Police.[41]

On May 29, 2011 four Mexican Federal Police helicopters attacked a cartel compound, where they were met with heavy fire, including from a .50 caliber rifle. According to a report from the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, this rifle is likely linked to Fast and Furious.[2]

There have been questions raised over a possible connection between Fast and Furious and the death of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent Jaime Zapata on February 15, 2011.[42][43] The gun used to kill Zapata was purchased by Otilio Osorio in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex, Texas[44] (outside the area of responsibility for the ATF Phoenix field division[45] which conducted Fast and Furious), and then smuggled into Mexico. Congressional investigators have stated that Osorio was known by the ATF to be a straw purchaser months before he purchased the gun used to kill Zapata, leading them to question ATF surveillance tactics[44] and to suspect a Texas-based operation similar to Fast and Furious.[46] In addition to Otilio Osorio, a Texas-based drug and gun trafficker, Manuel Barba, was involved trafficking another of the guns recovered in the Zapata shooting. The timeline of this case, called "Baytown Crew", shows guns were allowed to walk during surveillance that began June 7, 2010. On August 20, 2010 Barba received a rifle later recovered in the Zapata ambush and sent it with nine others to Mexico. The warrant for Barba's arrest was issued February 14, 2011, the day before Zapata was shot.[47] On January 30, 2012, Barba, who claimed to be working with Los Zetas in illegally exporting at least 44 weapons purchased through straw buyers, was sentenced to 100 months in prison.[48]
Investigations and fallout

In the Congress, Representative Darrell Issa (R–CA–49), chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, and Senator Chuck Grassley (R–IA), ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, have been investigating "gunwalking" operations.[49] On January 27, 2011, Grassley wrote a letter to ATF Acting Director Kenneth E. Melson requesting information about the ATF-sanctioned sale of hundreds of firearms to straw purchasers. The letter mentioned a number of allegations that walked guns were used in the fight that killed Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.[50] A second letter from Grassley on January 31 accused the ATF of targeting whistleblowers.[51]

On February 4, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich wrote a letter to Grassley in response to statements by the U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona, Dennis K. Burke and others. Weich said claims "...that (the) ATF ‘sanctioned’ or otherwise knowingly allowed the sale of assault weapons to a straw purchaser who then transported them to Mexico [are] false. ATF makes every effort to interdict weapons that have been purchased illegally and prevent their transportation to Mexico.”[52][53] Also in February, Attorney General Eric Holder requested that the Department of Justice's Inspector General begin an investigation of Fast and Furious.[54]

Reports on Operation Wide Receiver surfaced in March.[55] On March 23, President Barack Obama appeared on Univision and spoke about the "gunwalking" controversy. He said that neither he nor Attorney General Holder authorized Fast and Furious. He also stated, "There may be a situation here in which a serious mistake was made, and if that's the case then we'll find out and we'll hold somebody accountable."[56]

On May 3, Attorney General Holder testified to the House Judiciary Committee that he did not know who approved Fast and Furious, but that it was being investigated. He also stated that he "probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks," a claim which would later become controversial.[57][58]

In June, ATF Agent Vince Cefalu, who helped to publicize Fast and Furious, was served with termination papers, in a move by the agency he described as politically motivated retaliation. He had been at odds with ATF management since he filed a complaint over tactics in an unrelated case in 2005. The ATF denied that the firing was retaliation, and Cefalu's termination letter noted that he leaked documents to the Internet and showed a "lack of candor" in other operations.[59]

On June 14, 2011, a preliminary joint staff report was released by Representative Issa and Senator Grassley.[11] Among the findings: agents were told to stand down rather than interdict weapons, they complained about the strategy and were ignored, and Fast and Furious led to increased violence and death in Mexico.[60] Agents were panicked, certain that "someone was going to die."[61]

Representative Issa continued to hold hearings in June and July where ATF officials based in Phoenix and Mexico, and at headquarters in Washington, testified before the committee.[62] ATF agent John Dodson stated that he and other agents were ordered to observe the activities of gun smugglers but not to intervene. He testified:[63][64]

Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more. Knowing all the while, just days after these purchases, the guns that we saw these individuals buy would begin turning up at crime scenes in the United States and Mexico, we still did nothing. ...
I cannot begin to think of how the risk of letting guns fall into the hands of known criminals could possibly advance any legitimate law enforcement interest.

A second joint staff report was released by the Republicans on July 26.[34]

In August, three important Fast and Furious supervisors were transferred to new management positions at ATF headquarters in Washington: William Newell and David Voth, field supervisors who oversaw the program from Phoenix, and William McMahon, an ATF deputy director of operations. The transfers were initially reported as promotions by the Los Angeles Times, but the ATF stated that they did not receive raises or take on greater responsibilities.[49][65] In late August, it was announced that ATF Director Melson had been reassigned to the Justice Department, and U.S. Attorney Burke announced his resignation after being questioned by Congressional investigators earlier that month.[66]

In October, documents were found showing that Attorney General Holder had been sent briefings on Fast and Furious as early as July 2010, contradicting his May statement that he had known about it for only a few weeks. The briefings were from the National Drug Intelligence Center and Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer. In response, the Justice Department stated that Holder misunderstood the question from the committee; he had known about Fast and Furious, but he didn't know the details of the tactics being used.[58]

On November 8, Attorney General Holder stated for the first time in Congressional testimony that "gunwalking" was used in Fast and Furious. He remarked that the tactic is unacceptable, and that the operation was "flawed in its concept and flawed in its execution." He further stated that his office had inaccurately described the program in previous letters sent to Congress, but that this was unintentional. Reiterating previous testimony, he said that he and other top officials had been unaware that the "gunwalking" tactic was being used. Holder stated that his staff had not showed him memos about the program, and he denied any personal wrongdoing.[67][68][69]

In December, documents revealed that some ATF agents discussed using Fast and Furious to provide anecdotal cases to support controversial new gun rules. The regulation, called Demand Letter 3, would require some gun stores to report the sale of multiple rifles.[70]

Investigations by Congress and the DOJ Inspector General continued into 2012. In January, Patrick Cunningham, who was the criminal division chief at the Phoenix office of the U.S. Attorney's Office for the District of Arizona and has since resigned, asserted his innocence and his constitutional right against self-incrimination to avoid testifying.[71] Cunningham worked directly under Burke during Fast and Furious. He was subpoenaed because of the role he might have played in the operation, and in the letter sent from the DOJ to Senator Grassley in February 2011 that claimed the ATF did not allow weapons to be trafficked to Mexico.[72]



Nor did it have anything to do with Holder lying, then retracting TWO statements made to Congress...

And everything to do with the vast right wing conspiracy... Ken, I think you and Owner are in a competition for this guy's job.

I can't wait for your next excuse Kenny.


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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 2:32:11 PM   
mnottertail


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If he was lying he wouldnt retract.  Try to use words that mean what they mean, he said something that was wrong, and corrected it.  Very human trait, but generally not one that teabaggers possess.

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 4:08:59 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

If he was lying he wouldnt retract.  Try to use words that mean what they mean, he said something that was wrong, and corrected it.  Very human trait, but generally not one that teabaggers possess.


Nah he wouldn't retract a lie, to escape a perjury charge... That would never ever happen....


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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 5:52:59 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

Carney
was aptly named... He got a laugh a minute from the press corps today

Or so I hear:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/white-house-spokesman-executive-privilege-entirely-about-principle_647707.html

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RE: AG Holder Hides Behind Obama's Skirt - 6/21/2012 6:19:53 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
Try watching the full vid instead of posting four soundbites... five minutes out of 52... is hardly a laugh a minute.
Learn something important...(snorts)
http://www.whitehouse.gov/photos-and-video/video/2012/06/21/press-briefing
or even go to the "facts" given at the fox "fun n games" blog
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/06/21/watch-fox-news-reporter-ed-henry-challenges-jay-carney-on-executive-privilege-during-wh-press-briefing/

BTW he mentions "the FBI agents" name twice, and fluffed it once...
what is your point??
that he gets mixed up in an hour long question and answer period/briefing??
can you be any more petty?
Oh never mind, I forgot who I was talking to

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Profile   Post #: 100
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