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Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 6:23:55 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		Although I have no interest in a punishment dynamic, I can wrap my head around the receiver getting some sort of cathartic benefit from it as several people have mentioned on this thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_4178790/mpage_1/tm.htm

Now I'm pondering if it should be cathartic for the D as well. I can't mentally separate hitting when angry from abuse. (I'm not saying it's abusive - I'm saying my limited understanding filters it as abusive.) If not angry, what do the givers of punishment/consequences feel - before, during, afterwards?


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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 8:03:23 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		I haven't read that thread, and I do have a punishment dynamic. I will say, there's a difference between controlled anger and uncontrolled anger. Hitting while controlled - angry or not - is not an issue for me. I can't say he's hit uncontrolled. It's not whether you're angry or not, it's whether or not you're in control.



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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 8:08:49 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		It sure seems like it should, doesnt it? Action = consequence makes sense. But if the consequence is I get to beat you? And whatever you did made me mad? Why would I not enjoy the hell out of it?

What can I say, in my world, that equates to bullying. So I dont do it.

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 8:26:06 PM   
PowerXXXchange


Posts: 58
Joined: 9/26/2006
Status: offline 		Hitting while angry as a cathartic experience has to be the epitome of juvenile enslavement to ones pre-programming, about the most UNdomly thing I can imagine.

Well now that I think seriously, there seem to be a lot of anti-domly acts and attitudes, all expressing slavery to need, and only one that is universally Dominant.

Kinda like Anna Karenina

YMMV, of course.

PxC

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 8:46:05 PM   
SWDesertDom


Posts: 231
Joined: 4/5/2012
Status: offline 		I don't think I could ever do that. Once I started I might not stop. And that's definitely one place I never, ever want to go (not stopping).

Like PxC said, not very domly, letting your rage take over.

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 8:53:58 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Nope. It takes a lot to get me riled, anyway.

And how often do I have men offering themselves up as my toy, to 'work off my tension'. Morons.

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 8:56:00 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		Everyone is diffrent, from my experience, when
serious (not playful) physical punishment is a part
of a relationship, particularly spontaneous types like
beating with hand or belt ect. I think maturity and
control are essential.
I've had a long journey understanding my temper
and I will say my view now is if you arn't a person
who is in control of their temper then go take a few
deep breaths, have a think before going into a
punishment.

I try to remain calm and in control as a rule.

-ARIES

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 7/22/2012 8:57:50 PM >

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 9:03:10 PM   
Ullr


Posts: 2
Joined: 8/25/2011
Status: offline 		I think this misses the point of the other thread... I think the point was around punishment dynamics meaning there is a punishment for breaking rules or disappointing the dominant. (My contribution to that thread was a side question to the running discussion, so maybe I'm missing the point too.)

That punishment dynamic does not necessarily equate to being angry - even in the more extreme S&M punishments. I think it is generally a bad idea to engage in any BDSM activity driven by anger because of the lack of control potential (likelihood?).

I think the responses so far here are also missing your point - weren't you wanting to know what the dominant gets out of their side of the punishment dynamic? I seriously doubt there is one universal answer. For me, I get a sado-erotic rush from the process of imposing a corporal punishment. There is also the matter of taking control and responsibility in the relationship. It is a natural extension of my kink around active dominance within my relationship.

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 9:09:15 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Master doesn't like doling out consequences and hates having to do it as much as I hate receiving it but it is cathartic to both of us because for us it's cleansing for both of us, not just me. It means once it's done we can both move past it and lead our lives happily together.

Now that's not to say at times he doesn't become aroused by my pain. And there are times he has beaten, caned, etc...me to relieve frustrations and stress but it's never done in anger. I can't even say I've ever seen Master angry...maybe once in all the time we've been together and I wouldn't even call it anger. When Master is angry he tends to just walk away to clear his head and calm down so that we can talk rationally. I do the same thing so it works for both of us. But I like that he can use me as his stress and frustration relief. When he does so I feel I'm being of use to him and bringing a little pleasure to his down time but like I said, it's never done in anger.


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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 10:13:28 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		1-As stated above, I almost never take actions while angry. I did it when I was a kid and regretted it immensely, hurt folks I loved and hadda apologize all the time, which sucks.
2-Consequences suck to mete out. I hate having to do it so the lead-up blows, generally don't enjoy the process during, and am usually relieved when it's done so life can return to normal.

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 10:28:12 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Kana, do you ever feel like *you've* fucked up somehow, if you have to punish? I certainly felt that way, as if somehow *I* had done my job as explainer/leader/motivator sufficiently.

(Yes, I tried the punishment thing, so I KNOW it doesnt work for me!)

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 10:38:27 PM   
Kana


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Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Kana, do you ever feel like *you've* fucked up somehow, if you have to punish? I certainly felt that way, as if somehow *I* had done my job as explainer/leader/motivator sufficiently.

(Yes, I tried the punishment thing, so I KNOW it doesnt work for me!)


Nah.
If I think the fault is mine, I own it and would never punish her. I've even apologized, often, saying "I could have done better," " I made the wrong call here," "I totally fucked that one up," or just sometimes, "Doop"

Grins...but I don't think that's what you are asking.

Now, in a broader sense, that I have to mete out consequences doesn't necessarily mean I fucked up, it means I love her. It means I care enough to stay true to my word, to keep her feet to the fire, that I mean what I say and say what I mean. It means I am willing to give her the gift of consistency... and thus, integrity.

I see consequences more as corrective measures.
Let's face it, we're all human beings here, nobody is perfect and none of us all has the dedication and devotion to maintain 100% commitment to anything.
It's just not human nature (Well, unless someone is way way OCD, and even then, they fuck up from time to time.)
All things, no matter how perfectly made, will slowly deviate over time. At first these deviations might not matter because they are very negligible, but over time, those deviations can cripple performance.
Thus almost everything in the world needs regular maintaining, human beings included (WTF do folks think regular evaluations at work are but corrective measures and affirmations)

Consequences are my oh so gentle reminders that she's fallen off the beam, that she needs to refocus, rededicate and get back on track.
Think of it as oiling a machine to make sure it doesn't jump off track, that it will function as originally intended, at maximum efficiency and effectiveness.


< Message edited by Kana -- 7/22/2012 10:51:17 PM >

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 10:49:12 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		I wanna add one thing.
I've been a boss, owned my own companies and such things and as part of the job, you have to hand out consequences. Sometimes it's a chat in the office, sometimes its a letter in the ole employee file, sometimes it's a suspension and then there are times ya have to fire folks. Which sucks, cuz you know, these people are dependant on the job, sometimes they have families, sometimes they've been friends as well as employees
When I was a kid it used to bother me a lot to can folks, sometimes even when they had it coming. But then I realized that I'm not the guy who fired them, they did that by their actions, I'm just the guy standing there saying the words...but they did it to themselves.
Learning that lil tidbit took most of the sting out and made it a whole lot easier to do what had to be done..
I use that a lot when I lay out consequences.

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 11:07:23 PM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline 		Hitting when angry is not an issue because my husband doesn't really get angry, or certainly I've never known him lose his temper with me. If we have argued (which is extremely rare) and got worked up - which is never more than a few cross words - he will usually retreat into his man cave for half an hour before we deal with anything. I have never known him lose control or lash out in anger at anyone or anything, so I certainly don't fear an unreasonable reaction.

What does he get out of it?

Welll... most of the time he enjoys it. As I said in the other thread, punishment is what comes after the fixing if there is anything that needs to be fixed. It marks the end of any unsettled period for both of us. It's kind of an emotionally tiring event so it's not something he seeks out, and obviously it means that something has gone a bit wrong so that's not great. And yes, sometimes he finds it arousing to hurt me - something which I know some people think is a bad thing. But he is not some kind of monster who would knock my self esteem by inventing punishment offenses, he is in control and can always hurt me if he wants to anyway.

An expression I've heard people use a lot is 'holding my feet to the fire' which I suppose is what he is doing. He loves me, he wants me to be the best that I can be, this is just a part of that. So there is some degree of satisfaction.

Although needing to punish is a bad thing, ultimately the process is a positive thing for both of us, because it's both of us working on our relationship together. Not to everyone's taste I know.

I hope this makes some kind of sense - I've had a sleepless night and not all of my brain is back online yet.

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/22/2012 11:12:57 PM   
Thaz


Posts: 617
Joined: 4/28/2012
Status: offline 		What Kana said.

Been there and done that. Fired a guy who really needed the job, who was skilled and a guy I liked. But who just couldnt show up on time or work his hours. Lord knows I cut him slack but in the end his colleagues ended up working longer hours allmost everyday to cover for him allmost every day for weeks on end. Sometimes you have to be the man (or the woman) and do whats best.

And as to anger. As per my profile. "Never in anger". If I'm angry I go work it off or rationalise it. Acting in anger allmost always leads to regreet in my experience.

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/23/2012 2:20:49 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		My sub needs to know that the rules are there and that they're enforced. It sucks at the time, but it makes her feel safe and loved.

Before, I feel some anger at her but mostly sadness. During, I as lost in a technical mind frame - where should the next swat land, how much is she responding, which implement should I use, etc. After, I feel very loving.

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/23/2012 2:25:28 AM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline 		Its complicated isn't it. I read through the posts and agreed with most of them. I think it depends completely on the situation, there is hitting in anger when it is not appropriate when you are arguing about something and there is a sort of calm anger when something is wrong. I have been punished very rarely as a submissive and only once where I felt it was valid, there was certainly anger there then but though I felt terrible guilt I did not once feel in real danger.

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/23/2012 2:34:53 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		This pretty much...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

If I think the fault is mine, I own it and would never punish her. I've even apologized, often, saying "I could have done better," " I made the wrong call here," "I totally fucked that one up," or just sometimes, "Doop"

Grins...but I don't think that's what you are asking.

Now, in a broader sense, that I have to mete out consequences doesn't necessarily mean I fucked up, it means I love her. It means I care enough to stay true to my word, to keep her feet to the fire, that I mean what I say and say what I mean. It means I am willing to give her the gift of consistency... and thus, integrity.



For me the key words are consistency and integrity.

The problem with acting in anger, is that there's a danger that your goal stops being the original goal, and turns into a desire for retribution.

I see this a lot with commercial disputes; I'll walk into a room and it's clear that both parties have forgotten why they agreed to do business in the first place and now just want to "punish" the other party.

The goal of punishment should, ideally, be restitution not retribution.

Bearing in mind that I'm not a sadist out and out, although I'll admit to being a bit of a service-sadist (if the cane makes her wet, then I'll cane her arse), so my default position is "If you can't control yourself then you've no business trying to control someone else".

Sure, I've been in relationships where CP was an understood and expected consequence of some behaviours, and I've not enjoyed the act of punishing, but I've benefited over the longer term from the consistency that I've applied. If she agrees to do something on the understanding that she'll be punished if she doesn't do it, but kind of knows that it's unlikely that I'll actually perform the punishment then I'm not exactly creating clarity and consistency. On the other hand, if when I ask her to do something she doesn't know what the consequences of not doing it are (or - even worse, worries that I'll fly into a rage and beat her if she doesn't put the toothbrush back on the second shelf) then I'm not creating a stable or clear environment.




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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/23/2012 3:41:56 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Although I have no interest in a punishment dynamic, I can wrap my head around the receiver getting some sort of cathartic benefit from it as several people have mentioned on this thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_4178790/mpage_1/tm.htm

Now I'm pondering if it should be cathartic for the D as well. I can't mentally separate hitting when angry from abuse. (I'm not saying it's abusive - I'm saying my limited understanding filters it as abusive.) If not angry, what do the givers of punishment/consequences feel - before, during, afterwards?


Like I said in that thread, my punishment dynamic constitutes the withdrawal of my attention toward her.

So yeah, I'm certainly not gonna strike out at her while I'm in a state of anger - A), because that'd be dangerous (and probably abusive, too) and B), because to do so would still qualify as giving her attention.

I don't like being angry and when it's from some action of hers, I need time to cool down. She spends that time banished to a convenient corner or out of my sight altogether.

Focus.

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RE: Don't hit when angry? - 7/23/2012 4:54:54 AM   
phoenixmoonn13


Posts: 398
Joined: 6/11/2010
Status: offline 		we dont have a real punishment dynamic as master really doesn't like giving it and i dotn like receiving it however he knows it helps me deal with stress of doing something wrong , he would never punish in anger he will always wait. he isnt a sadist but he will use pain in pleasure as he loves how i am in space but a punishment pain is never one that will get me to space another reason he doesn't like giving them

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