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Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/22/2012 12:16:04 PM

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I wonder if the "Pro-Lifers" (lol) believe that THEY have the right to insist on using another person's body or organs for their life-support needs?

And if they don't believe that THEY have the right to insist on using another person's bodies for their medical needs, why would they believe that a blastocyst or embryo WOULD have that right?

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/22/2012 2:37:02 PM

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That's a very interesting arguement...

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(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/22/2012 7:31:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
I wonder if the "Pro-Lifers" (lol) believe that THEY have the right to insist on using another person's body or organs for their life-support needs?
And if they don't believe that THEY have the right to insist on using another person's bodies for their medical needs, why would they believe that a blastocyst or embryo WOULD have that right?

You've created an argument that isn't equal.

The embryo/blastocyst didn't come into being by it's own actions. Immaculate Conception aside, it takes two to tango here. And, throwing out all the cases of pregnancy via rape/incest (I heard that can't happen... sorry... very bad pun), it takes two people having consensual intercourse to create that mass of cells. That means that two people chose to take part in an activity that could result in a pregnancy. Regardless of steps taken to minimize that risk, the consequence (if they were attempting to minimize the risk of pregnancy) of their actions is that blastocyst/embryo.

If you were to drive the speed limit, wear your seat belt, not text, listen to the radio, or talk on the phone while driving, and still got into an accident, is it still your fault? Would it be incredibly wrong to have to pay the consequences of your accident, even though you were taking steps to minimize your risk of having an accident?

Had someone had a fertilized egg implanted without their consent, we have a completely different conversation. In any case of non-consensual intercourse resulting in a pregnancy, totally different discussion.

A better discussion would be: Is it okay to have an abortion the day prior to natural birth? Assume for the moment that you knew what day the childbirth would be, how close to the actual date of birth is it okay to abort the pregnancy?

THAT is a much more interesting discussion.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/22/2012 7:43:48 PM

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I dont know whats more mind boggling. That someone was serious writing the OP or that someone found it interesting.

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RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/22/2012 8:03:33 PM

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The OP is quite serious... and so is the response... one I also echo.

Quite an interesting question, fargle. Will take some time to consider it.

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RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/22/2012 8:06:01 PM

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quote:

A better discussion would be: Is it okay to have an abortion the day prior to natural birth? Assume for the moment that you knew what day the childbirth would be, how close to the actual date of birth is it okay to abort the pregnancy?

Once past the age of viability, no, its not ok, and our laws prevent that from happening unless there are medical requirements to do so.

Can we give this a break now?

Just to give you a small vocabulary lesson

Blastocyst formation begins at day 5 after fertilization in humans, when the blastocoele opens up in the morula, a process known as hatching

In humans, it is called an embryo until about eight weeks after fertilization (i.e. ten weeks Last Menstrual Period or LMP), and from then it is instead called a fetus.

Considering the OP didnt even address the fetus...

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 8/22/2012 8:12:06 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/22/2012 8:19:47 PM

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It is an interesting question.

Both scenarios assume a "right to life".

Fargle's question had me thinking of the movie "The Island" in which Ewan McGregor discovers he's a clone, developed to provide body parts to a wealthy "sponsor" who provide his DNA. It wasn't a very well-done movie, but it did put forth the question of just who has the right to make life and death decisions for others.

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RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/22/2012 8:33:57 PM

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The play and movie "Repo Man" touches on this concept as well. The government has granted a corporation that they are the only providers of body parts, and that they have people sign contracts for different organs, giving the corporation the right to repossess said organs if the recipient falls behind in payments. Yes, kill the person because the payment on the organ is not paid.

This really has me thinking.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to erieangel)

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/22/2012 9:20:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I wonder if the "Pro-Lifers" (lol) believe that THEY have the right to insist on using another person's body or organs for their life-support needs?

And if they don't believe that THEY have the right to insist on using another person's bodies for their medical needs, why would they believe that a blastocyst or embryo WOULD have that right?

It seems pretty much cast in stone that for a live person to receive a transplant (if that is your point here) The donor has to volunteer the donation, legally. If the person is recently deceased, then it is required that a living relative approve the donation. It is a pretty complex process, and results, at times, from the red tape interfering with the use of a viable organ that the prior owner offered, and is no longer using. (anecdotal experience with Gift of Life in Philadelphia) If I misinterpreted your statement I apologize and request a clearer premise.

With the exception of rape, It would seem to me that one involved party volunteers the donation and a related (at least to the embryo) person offers approval. Anyone saying "NO" at incaption would have prevented the medical need, except in the case of rape (or illegal organ harvesting)
Perhaps there should be the same level of predetermination and evaluation, or like the label on cigarettes. Participating in sexual activity can, result in pregnancy. In fact a high percentage of pregnant women have that medical condition as a direct result of sexual activity.

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RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/22/2012 9:25:12 PM

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You mean it's not like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp-pU8TFsg0

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Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/22/2012 9:49:45 PM

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Oh no, Not yet, that seems to be a version of British Nationalized health care. That doesn't happen in the US until after 2014. Argue to have your release not be a part of your license application. When did Monty Python Start doing documentaries?

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/22/2012 9:54:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

Oh no, Not yet, that seems to be a version of British Nationalized health care. That doesn't happen in the US until after 2014. Argue to have your release not be a part of your license application. When did Monty Python Start doing documentaries?

Aren't "The Holy Grail" and "Life of Brian" documentaries?

I mean, I know that "Jabberwocky" wasn't an historical movie but I really had hopes for the other 2.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/22/2012 10:01:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

A better discussion would be: Is it okay to have an abortion the day prior to natural birth? Assume for the moment that you knew what day the childbirth would be, how close to the actual date of birth is it okay to abort the pregnancy?

Once past the age of viability, no, its not ok, and our laws prevent that from happening unless there are medical requirements to do so.
Can we give this a break now?

No. We can not. What is the "age of viability?" Is that getting through the 2nd trimester? Why is it at that point the tumor (unwanted growth of human cells) mooching off the host (the mother) suddenly has rights, even though it has yet to be born?

quote:

Just to give you a small vocabulary lesson
Blastocyst formation begins at day 5 after fertilization in humans, when the blastocoele opens up in the morula, a process known as hatching
In humans, it is called an embryo until about eight weeks after fertilization (i.e. ten weeks Last Menstrual Period or LMP), and from then it is instead called a fetus.

It's cute that you think I need a vocabulary lesson.

quote:

Considering the OP didnt even address the fetus...

Interesting to note: If you hit [ctrl]-F, it should open a search dialog within your browser. Search the word, "fetus." It has two (prior to this post). Both of the instances were your words. Not mine. Not farglebargle's. Why did you feel it necessary to bring that word into this?

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/23/2012 5:36:07 AM

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quote:

No. We can not. What is the "age of viability?" Is that getting through the 2nd trimester? Why is it at that point the tumor (unwanted growth of human cells) mooching off the host (the mother) suddenly has rights, even though it has yet to be born?

Because, at that point, its now viable outside the womb.

quote:

Interesting to note: If you hit [ctrl]-F, it should open a search dialog within your browser. Search the word, "fetus." It has two (prior to this post). Both of the instances were your words. Not mine. Not farglebargle's. Why did you feel it necessary to bring that word into this?

Because you felt it necessary to take the conversation to that point.

quote:

Had someone had a fertilized egg implanted without their consent, we have a completely different conversation. In any case of non-consensual intercourse resulting in a pregnancy, totally different discussion.

Lets go further... define consent. Coercion is not consent... date rape is not consent... being drunk and fucking is not consent. A woman who takes all the precautions to avoid pregnancy is gets pregnant is not consent to pregnancy.

Wouldnt it be amazing if men had to deal with this issue for just one year.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/23/2012 6:09:25 AM

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Please define coercion. Charm beyond your control, or physical force which equated to rape? If you get so drunk that your legs fall open, then your premise of "Taking all precautions is not quite correct. Don't drink so much. You will be held responsible if you drive this way, Not just for yourself, but for passengers and stray pedestrians. Date rape is a problem. as a precaution, take a chaperon with you and stay in public areas until you are ready to get married. Or carry a tazer, pepper spray, a knife or a gun, and know how to use them.
Have your dad, big brother, burly friend put an arm around your date and assure him that there is nothing he can do to you that your Dad, brother, or burly firend can't do to him. If you say "No" then your date will remember that threat and stop. He'll whine, but that is when your precautions should include telling yourself "No means No"
My pro life stance gets a bit fuzzy when health (not just inconvenience) of the mother or child (yes, child) is in danger, or when a rape is involved. While i am very pro life, people have free will for a reason.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/23/2012 6:13:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

Please define coercion. Charm beyond your control, or physical force which equated to rape? If you get so drunk that your legs fall open, then your premise of "Taking all precautions is not quite correct. Don't drink so much. You will be held responsible if you drive this way, Not just for yourself, but for passengers and stray pedestrians. Date rape is a problem. as a precaution, take a chaperon with you and stay in public areas until you are ready to get married. Or carry a tazer, pepper spray, a knife or a gun, and know how to use them.
Have your dad, big brother, burly friend put an arm around your date and assure him that there is nothing he can do to you that your Dad, brother, or burly firend can't do to him. If you say "No" then your date will remember that threat and stop. He'll whine, but that is when your precautions should include telling yourself "No means No"
My pro life stance gets a bit fuzzy when health (not just inconvenience) of the mother or child (yes, child) is in danger, or when a rape is involved. While i am very pro life, people have free will for a reason.

You do realize that part of your post pretty much quotes Sharia Law don't you? Yaknow, that EVIL MOOSLEM stuff that people on the Far right seen to be scared shitless of..

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/23/2012 6:20:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

Please define coercion. Charm beyond your control, or physical force which equated to rape? If you get so drunk that your legs fall open, then your premise of "Taking all precautions is not quite correct. Don't drink so much. You will be held responsible if you drive this way, Not just for yourself, but for passengers and stray pedestrians. Date rape is a problem. as a precaution, take a chaperon with you and stay in public areas until you are ready to get married. Or carry a tazer, pepper spray, a knife or a gun, and know how to use them.
Have your dad, big brother, burly friend put an arm around your date and assure him that there is nothing he can do to you that your Dad, brother, or burly firend can't do to him. If you say "No" then your date will remember that threat and stop. He'll whine, but that is when your precautions should include telling yourself "No means No"
My pro life stance gets a bit fuzzy when health (not just inconvenience) of the mother or child (yes, child) is in danger, or when a rape is involved. While i am very pro life, people have free will for a reason.

You do realize that part of your post pretty much quotes Sharia Law don't you? Yaknow, that EVIL MOOSLEM stuff that people on the Far right seen to be scared shitless of..

Wow, I did not know that. Which part? Not really scared of the faithful, simply those who bend religion to their beliefs, and that sounds quite similar to Spanish Inquisition. and is paraphrased from Don Quixote.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/23/2012 6:27:07 AM

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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

You do realize that part of your post pretty much quotes Sharia Law don't you? Yaknow, that EVIL MOOSLEM stuff that people on the Far right seen to be scared shitless of..

Wow, I did not know that. Which part?

Well, offhand, THIS:

quote:

take a chaperon with you and stay in public areas until you are ready to get married.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/23/2012 6:39:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

You do realize that part of your post pretty much quotes Sharia Law don't you? Yaknow, that EVIL MOOSLEM stuff that people on the Far right seen to be scared shitless of..

Wow, I did not know that. Which part?

Well, offhand, THIS:

quote:

take a chaperon with you and stay in public areas until you are ready to get married.

I was also referring to the male relative comment. Seriously, atursvc, when I was young, if someone had pulled that crap you describe, I'd have laughed in his face and told him to make my fucking day.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Your Right To Life Support.... - 8/23/2012 6:42:15 AM

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Please define coercion. Charm beyond your control, or physical force which equated to rape? If you get so drunk that your legs fall open, then your premise of "Taking all precautions is not quite correct. Don't drink so much. You will be held responsible if you drive this way, Not just for yourself, but for passengers and stray pedestrians.

Yes, and yet if that same person tries to enter a contract, its not legally enforceable under the law. So why are we holding them legally responsible now? If I go to the bar with the intention of drinking, knowing i have to drive myself home, then yes, I am responsible. If I go to the bar by cab, with the intention of taking a cab home after I get drunk... guess what? nothing happens. The driving aspect is not the same here. No one is pushing me to drive, in fact, many will probably tell me not too. What are the chances a man will tell me not to fuck?

quote:

Date rape is a problem. as a precaution, take a chaperon with you and stay in public areas until you are ready to get married.

Ah, now you want to place women under formal protection.. very archaic, no? Cute theory though.

quote:

Have your dad, big brother, burly friend put an arm around your date and assure him that there is nothing he can do to you that your Dad, brother, or burly firend can't do to him. If you say "No" then your date will remember that threat and stop. He'll whine, but that is when your precautions should include telling yourself "No means No"

So now, your response is encouraging people to communicate a threat. We are now trading one law violation for another.

quote:

My pro life stance gets a bit fuzzy when health (not just inconvenience) of the mother or child (yes, child) is in danger, or when a rape is involved. While i am very pro life, people have free will for a reason.

There are many, many forms of coercion. You have but touched on a few you thought you were smart enough to understand.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to atursvcMaam)

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