RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:05:29 PM)

"ex-cons masquerading as protesters"?

I can't even imagine the world some of you live in.

What does this have to do with the church?





tj444 -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:07:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

or just distributing the food to "their" poor people (meaning regular church attending ones)..

see.. homeless people "have not yet come to a sense of personal responsibility in life. They are still in denial, blame or seeing the world as owing them".. (translation: they are not entitled to the freebies cuz they have not joined their Church & fed their "spiritual hunger")..
  

Nothing in what Muse posted makes the connection from "some," to "all," Tj.  Nothing there says the food baskets they collect will be reserved for church members.  They just aren't going to do it from an open door anymore. 

For a segment of our poor population (not all, by any stretch), demanding charity (especially the government variety) is a way of life.  The rude fuckers and trash seem to have screwed it up for everybody, yet again.

seriously?.. does it really make any sense that they will give it to non-belonger/non-believers before giving it to regular church attending members? hmmmm...

maybe the intent of the open door thing was to recruit new members.. just it backfired on em.. [:D]




stellauk -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:10:43 PM)

quote:



"Most clients of food banks have not yet come to a sense of personal responsibility in life. They are still in denial, blame, or seeing the world as owing them," wrote Rev. David Durksen of the Unity Church of Victoria.



You know you could arrive at the same conclusion looking at any poor or homeless person.

But...

quote:



"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
Matthew 7:1 to Matthew 7:5



.and..

quote:



"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven."
Luke 6:37



..and...

quote:



"Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgement."
John 7:24



..and...

quote:



On one hand there is a growing moral sensitivity alert to the value of every individual as a human being without any distinction of race, nationality, religion, political opinion, or social class.

On the other hand these proclamations are contradicted in practice. How can these solemn affirmations be reconciled with the widespread attacks on human life and the refusal to accept those who are weak, needy, elderly, or just conceived?

These attacks go directly against respect for life; they threaten the very meaning of democratic coexistence, and our cities risk becoming societies of people who are rejected, marginalized, uprooted, and oppressed, instead of communities of "people living together."

Pope John Paul II
Solidaris Rei Solicitudo



You know you could look at anyone - anyone in the world - and find things about them which indicate a lack of personal responsibility, being in denial, or being entitled.

Yes you can also point out that there are those who abuse, who are playing the system, and you can use this as justification not to help the poor or the needy.

But this doesn't take anything away from the simple fact that the vast majority of the poor and the destitute are people just like you and me who have hit hard times and need help and charity.

Nor does it take anything away from the fact that - as described in the words of Pope John Paul II in his 1987 document Solidaris Rei Solicitudo you cease to be part of the solution and make yourself part of the problem which is breaking up society and supporting those who are creating fragments of people who are rejected, marginalized, disaffected and oppressed.

Withholding compassion from the poor and destitute doesn't strengthen society, but weakens it.




Aswad -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:10:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Another aspect of the haves, deciding what the have nots deserve...even in Canada


Actually, the haves will always decide what the have-nots will get, and it's the deserve part that causes trouble for everyone.

I've never been charitable because the recipient deserved my charity. I don't even care if they deserve it. That's the thing about mercy and charity: it's an undeserved kindness, a choice to reach out with kindness to another human being when that choice is completely your own. Making that choice does something inside you that no amount of regular donations to organizations or the like will ever do. And that's what Jesus is on about: how to bring a light to your own heart that you can share with others. Cause spiritual change starts with one (wo)man and spreads "heart to heart", whether it's light or dark. Not with doing what's expected of you.

Nobody is entitled to something from me. Nobody has a claim to what's mine. Nobody gets to numb me down that way.

I make a choice for myself to reach out, to extend a kindness, and a lot happens in that interaction.

I'm not going to let "deserve" get in the way.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





tazzygirl -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:11:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fetisheden


maybe they should move to a 3rd world country to get some american charity money


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


It is not surprising how some would try to use this as an indictment of all churches everywhere

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So much for the churches and communities taking care of the poor.




Yet that has been the battle cry for a few years now...

Let them seek help from the churches, charities and local communities.

Charities are over extended

Local communities are going broke

And now churches are closing their aid

Next solution?



quote:

maybe they should move to a 3rd world country to get some american charity money



lol... you may be right




GotSteel -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:12:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
I don't think asking people to sit through a sermon to get enough food to last ... what ... a week? ... is such a horrible fate and I don't see where people get the idea that anyone that shows up with a hand out is entitled to anything.


I don't see anything wrong with a private organization doing whatever it wants in that regard, so long as I'm not subsidizing it as though it were a charity.




Musicmystery -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:13:17 PM)

quote:

I've never been charitable because the recipient deserved my charity. I don't even care if they deserve it. That's the thing about mercy and charity: it's an undeserved kindness, a choice to reach out with kindness to another human being when that choice is completely your own. Making that choice does something inside you that no amount of regular donations to organizations or the like will ever do. And that's what Jesus is on about: how to bring a light to your own heart that you can share with others. Cause spiritual change starts with one (wo)man and spreads "heart to heart", whether it's light or dark. Not with doing what's expected of you.

Nobody is entitled to something from me. Nobody has a claim to what's mine. Nobody gets to numb me down that way.

I make a choice for myself to reach out, to extend a kindness, and a lot happens in that interaction.

I'm not going to let "deserve" get in the way.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


Bingo. Someone gets it.




TheHeretic -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:17:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

its so hard to type out?????

The word you're looking for is "stall"


It would be better, Muse, if you abandoned your efforts to place words in my mouth.  In this case, the word was, "lazy," and would apply just as well to you offering us a scan, instead of something we can verify for ourselves.  Not to suggest that you faked the whole thing mind you, but we do have plenty of posters who like to play with photoshop.  Links are better.

Assuming we are on the same page (and even a stopped clock is right, twice a day), the phrase in question would be, "It's attracting a lot of street people, and that made it uncomfortable."  Granted, I am projecting my own understanding of street people as containing an element of rude fuckers and trash onto that, and I could be wrong.  Standing in line, behind someone who hasn't bathed since peeing on themselves last week is "uncomfortable," and picking up scabies certainly qualifies too. 




TheHeretic -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:22:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fetisheden


maybe they should move to a 3rd world country to get some american charity money





Maybe they should move to a third world country, and get some clue about what poverty really looks like. 




tj444 -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:25:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
And that's what Jesus is on about: how to bring a light to your own heart that you can share with others. Cause spiritual change starts with one (wo)man and spreads "heart to heart", whether it's light or dark. Not with doing what's expected of you.


really? cuz when i was a kid i was taught (by a priest) that if i didnt believe in God then i would not go to Heaven.. it didnt matter one dam bit how good a person in my heart i was, how much i freely helped others, etc.. it was all about Him, you had to be a believer.. I see that as entirely selfish & self-centered of God.. and that meant He was no God i wanted to know..




SternSkipper -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:28:32 PM)

quote:



Exactly so. Some "poor" spend a great deal of their time ripping off charities. I remember working a T-giving food giveaway and working the loading dock and loading food into high dollar SUVs of those who were "poor".


I hear this bullshit all the time. I volunteer twice a week at our community food pantry and can pretty much attest to the fact that the pickings aren't exactly much to "shake down". Our scout troop also manages the Turkey distribution. Again, no crime wave ... Nice of you to volunteer ONCE. Sorry you walked away with a bad taste in your mouth.




Aswad -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:29:41 PM)

I see that Stella brought a good passage into the fray, the one from Matthew. In short, the middle and last part are the weightier, and their sense is oft misunderstood. Only when we have the right heart ourselves do we have something to bring to those around us, and the potential to see what is right and what is wrong within them. We can't set out to right the world without first righting ourselves.

How can we shine a light in darkness if we aren't luminous beings ourselves? We cannot.

Jiddu Krishnamurti has spoken extensively on this, by the way.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





SternSkipper -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:30:45 PM)

quote:

I've never been charitable because the recipient deserved my charity. I don't even care if they deserve it. That's the thing about mercy and charity: it's an undeserved kindness, a choice to reach out with kindness to another human being when that choice is completely your own. Making that choice does something inside you that no amount of regular donations to organizations or the like will ever do. And that's what Jesus is on about: how to bring a light to your own heart that you can share with others. Cause spiritual change starts with one (wo)man and spreads "heart to heart", whether it's light or dark. Not with doing what's expected of you.


Human Decency - See Above

Well said Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:31:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

really? cuz when i was a kid i was taught (by a priest) that if i didnt believe in God then i would not go to Heaven.. it didnt matter one dam bit how good a person in my heart i was, how much i freely helped others, etc.. it was all about Him, you had to be a believer.. I see that as entirely selfish & self-centered of God.. and that meant He was no God i wanted to know..


Good news for you, then. That's not the God that Jesus knew. That's the God the Church invented.

Consider checking out the one Jesus knew, you might find him more to your liking...

IWYW,
— Aswad.





tj444 -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 1:38:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

really? cuz when i was a kid i was taught (by a priest) that if i didnt believe in God then i would not go to Heaven.. it didnt matter one dam bit how good a person in my heart i was, how much i freely helped others, etc.. it was all about Him, you had to be a believer.. I see that as entirely selfish & self-centered of God.. and that meant He was no God i wanted to know..


Good news for you, then. That's not the God that Jesus knew. That's the God the Church invented.

Consider checking out the one Jesus knew, you might find him more to your liking...

IWYW,
— Aswad.



thanks but no thanks.. I can't be a believer in any version..




thishereboi -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 2:00:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

In this case, the problem seems to be that actual poor people are showing up.

I think the church would much prefer the SUVs.



That is the way I read it also. Must be really irritating when those pesky poor people show up and ruin a good charity event.[8|]




thishereboi -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 2:08:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
I don't think asking people to sit through a sermon to get enough food to last ... what ... a week? ... is such a horrible fate and I don't see where people get the idea that anyone that shows up with a hand out is entitled to anything.


is that really the reason someone should sit thru a sermon? shouldnt people attend religious services cuz they actually believe? [8|]


I don't think it is. then again I have been to a lot of churches that gave away food and I have never been to one that required someone to attend a service first.




IceDemeter -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 2:46:17 PM)

FR ~

Just a couple of notes:

- This story is over 12 years old. It was originally reported on the CBC back in February of 2000. http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2000/02/21/church.html

- It was not actually the food bank itself (Winnipeg Harvest) that was closed. That is still fully operational. What the church did was stop being a distribution site for them.

- The church is located in a scary part of the city - an area that is known for gang fights and murders. There is mention in the CBC story about safety and security concerns with being a distribution point, and from personal experience of that area I would think that those concerns were for not just the church members but also for anyone there picking up donations.

Although I am generally opposed to organized religions, I can see it as not unreasonable for this particular church, in this particular area, to have made the decision that they did.




Musicmystery -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 2:48:37 PM)

In that case, this is an incredibly crappy piece of journalism.




Musicmystery -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 2:50:35 PM)

Actually, your link tells an even worse story. Apparently, to the new pastor, charity isn't "spiritual":


The Unity Truth Centre on Arlington is standing by its decision to close the food bank that Winnipeg Harvest operated on its property.

Some of the church's members are unhappy with the decision.

But the minister wants her congregation to focus on more "church-like" activities.

Charlotte Prossen has only been minister of Winnipeg's Unity Truth Centre for two months.

She says her decision to close the food bank has garnered some angry, even threatening, phone calls.

She admits some of the people in the church want the food bank to stay.

"They're unhappy because they've taken a stand that enforces to them that they're doing a great service by serving this food. But the program goes on, and they're welcome to volunteer in any place the program is offered."

Prossen says people in the congregation meant well when they first decided to get involved in the food bank.

But she says the group had been without a minister or leadership for years, and now, it needs to return to more spiritual pursuits.

"I don't know why it would be hard to understand that we are a church and we must identify ourselves as that in our community. We need to use our space, to introduce our programs to the community."

Prossen says there were several reasons she closed the project, including concerns about whether it was covered by the church's insurance.

She denies news reports that suggest the food bank was really shut down because some church members were uncomfortable with the street people who came to their building.

Instead, Prossen makes references to "unpleasant" and "unfortunate" situations that led to the decision. She says she's not at liberty to say what those situations are, although a prepared statement issued by the church does mention safety and protection concerns.




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