RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor

RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (Full Version)

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IceDemeter -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 3:18:10 PM)
Crappy journalism - yup. Every now and then (looks like last time was middle of last year) viral on the web - inexplicable (but then, I find most things that go viral to be that way). Charity not being considered spiritual - absolutely bizarre to my way of thinking, but since I feel that way about almost everything to do with organized religions, I didn't feel it warranted further comment. It's just another "head shake" thing... I would see it being a reasonable decision if it were based strictly on the security issues for both the church and anyone there for a meal. The security issue wouldn't have been with the folks coming in who were in need of the assistance, but more with the gangs in the area being a threat to them. With regard to some of the other comments in the thread, I found it interesting that these are in part answered in a section titled "Myths" on the Winnipeg Harvest website ( http://winnipegharvest.org/faqs/ ).

Musicmystery -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 3:23:07 PM)
And the "security issues" are where she's "not at liberty to say." All very convenient.

IceDemeter -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 3:44:30 PM)
If I didn't know the area well personally, I would absolutely agree with you about that being "convenient". What I can tell you is that all of my friends who used to live in that neighborhood moved to a different part of the city between 1990 and 2004 because they not only didn't feel safe living there, but found that most of their friends and family didn't feel safe even visiting. It is an area of spreading urban blight and danger, which is very sad to those like me who remember it as being a wonderful community. Frankly, I personally wouldn't want to list specific circumstances or names in the media if I were the representative of that church simply because I would be highly concerned about retaliation. I would think it would be incredibly difficult to maintain a congregation at that location because of the "scariness" of the area to start with, and potentially inviting more danger would only add to the difficulty. The only good thing that I can tell you is that the actual food bank, Winnipeg Harvest, did not have a negative impact from this decision and is still accessible in nearby locations. I volunteered with that organization for years before I left the city, and can attest that the loss of one suddenly uncharitable church as a location did not cause any difficulties.

dcnovice -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 4:21:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery And the "security issues" are where she's "not at liberty to say." All very convenient. I'm not sure about that, to be honest. Having served on a church vestry (the Episcopal version of a board of directors) and encountered some of the delicate and sensitive issues that can arise in a congregation, I'm willing to give the minister the benefit of the doubt. Is it true this happened back in 2000?

Musicmystery -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 4:25:19 PM)
dc, granted, but if that's the case, it's a pathetic handling of the matter, and against the bulk of the congregation. Just where the rubber meets the road, suddenly it's hush hush. In the meantime, we have this silly dumping charity for spirituality crap.

GotSteel -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 4:44:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi I don't think it is. then again I have been to a lot of churches that gave away food and I have never been to one that required someone to attend a service first. quote: ORIGINAL: http://jonathanturley.org/2008/12/31/church-throws-out-homeless-after-they-failed-to-listen-to-sermon-and-pray-before-christmas-dinner/ First Reformed Church of Hackensack, N.J., does not like homeless people who put food before faith. The Church reportedly shutdown the FAITH Foundation homeless shelter after the director, Robin Reilly, allowed homeless people on Christmas Day to eat before the families were required to listen to a sermon and prayer. FAITH was concerned that many people had not eaten in twenty-four hours and that it was difficult for the families to wait to eat under the circumstances.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 5:06:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic .... Remember also that Jesus taught that the poor would always be with us, and helping them was a good thing, but should not become the priority of the faith. (Mark 14:7 - paraphrased) It has been a LONG time since I've been to bible study but as I recall, that statement was to his disciples when they chastised the woman who used expensive oils to bathe the feet of Jesus. They admonished her, saying she should have used the money that oil cost, to feed the poor. Jesus was referring to his current situation telling them that they'd always have the poor to tend to, but he wouldn't always be there. It wasn't about NOT making the poor a priority, but rather about the kindness the woman had shown to him and how it had touched HIM personally. Sorry. Not trying to be quarrelsome.

VideoAdminGamma -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 5:10:55 PM)
Fast reply Several posts were pulled because they were off topic or replies to the pulled post. Please stay on topic and have a nice day. Thank you for being a part of CollarMe, VideoAdminGamma

dcnovice -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 5:17:40 PM)
quote: Jesus was referring to his current situation telling them that they'd always have the poor to tend to, but he wouldn't always be there. It wasn't about NOT making the poor a priority, but rather about the kindness the woman had shown to him and how it had touched HIM personally. Agreed. I think it may even have been a sarcastic response to the disciples' judgmental attitude toward the woman. It's clear from Matthew 25:31-46 that Jesus saw feeding the poor as important--indeed as a yardstick for separating those who would enter the kingdom from those who wouldn't.

GotSteel -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 5:18:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Actually, your link tells an even worse story. Apparently, to the new pastor, charity isn't "spiritual": Too much actual helping, not enough brain washing. I seem to recall nuns getting chewed out for the same reason recently. quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Instead, Prossen makes references to "unpleasant" and "unfortunate" situations that led to the decision. She says she's not at liberty to say what those situations are, although a prepared statement issued by the church does mention safety and protection concerns. In Damascus Virginia there's a church building that thru hikers are allowed to stay at when they pass through the town. When we went through a significant number of the windows were kicked out. Not because there was an issue with the hikers but because hikers weren't the only people who ended up using it. In Palmerton Pennsylvania thru hikers are allowed to stay in the basement of the town hall. We ran into a vagrant at the shelter just outside of town and were sketched out enough that we kept hiking even though the sun was going down and it was starting to rain. Come to find out he'd been thrown out of the town a couple of days earlier on account of deciding to squat in said basement indefinitely and steal from hikers. I'm not willing to call bullshit on the preacher because there actually are issues which come up dealing with people so messed up that they're completely nonfunctional in society that he and the insurance company could legitimately be worried about.

hlen5 -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/26/2012 7:43:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML ~fr~ And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'" (Matthew 25.35-40 ESV) Worth repeating.....

thishereboi -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/27/2012 3:59:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi I don't think it is. then again I have been to a lot of churches that gave away food and I have never been to one that required someone to attend a service first. quote: ORIGINAL: http://jonathanturley.org/2008/12/31/church-throws-out-homeless-after-they-failed-to-listen-to-sermon-and-pray-before-christmas-dinner/ First Reformed Church of Hackensack, N.J., does not like homeless people who put food before faith. The Church reportedly shutdown the FAITH Foundation homeless shelter after the director, Robin Reilly, allowed homeless people on Christmas Day to eat before the families were required to listen to a sermon and prayer. FAITH was concerned that many people had not eaten in twenty-four hours and that it was difficult for the families to wait to eat under the circumstances. I said I have never been to one, I didn't say they didn't exist. You can look at any group in the world and find some assholes in it, so what is your point?

LizDeluxe -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/27/2012 6:09:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity It is not surprising how some would try to use this as an indictment of all churches everywhere quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl So much for the churches and communities taking care of the poor. Why not? One Democrat does something stupid and this forum pounces. One Republican does something stupid and this forum pounces. One idiot with a gun does something stupid and this forum goes ballistic (pun intended). What was neglected is that this story came from an Ottawa newspaper. An opportunity missed to bash everything Canadian, eh?

Lucylastic -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/27/2012 6:37:46 AM)
oh what a surprise, you didnt read the link given......Oh and I mentioned it being canadian in the first page quote: Another aspect of the haves, deciding what the have nots deserve...even in Canada Its the same the whole world over, aint it all a bloomin shame, its the rich what gets the money, and the poor what gets the blame(1890s song) The pleasures of the mighty are obtained by the tears of the poor. oh and this is the link that was given on page 3 http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2000/02/21/church.html The actual pic showed it was happening in winnipeg.... anyone who missed that deserve to miss their chance to bash canada....

Musicmystery -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/27/2012 7:15:09 AM)
quote: What was neglected is that this story came from an Ottawa newspaper. Ah, no. You didn't bother to read the thread.

Lucylastic -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/27/2012 7:35:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Another aspect of the haves, deciding what the have nots deserve...even in Canada Actually, the haves will always decide what the have-nots will get, and it's the deserve part that causes trouble for everyone. I've never been charitable because the recipient deserved my charity. I don't even care if they deserve it. That's the thing about mercy and charity: it's an undeserved kindness, a choice to reach out with kindness to another human being when that choice is completely your own. Making that choice does something inside you that no amount of regular donations to organizations or the like will ever do. And that's what Jesus is on about: how to bring a light to your own heart that you can share with others. Cause spiritual change starts with one (wo)man and spreads "heart to heart", whether it's light or dark. Not with doing what's expected of you. Nobody is entitled to something from me. Nobody has a claim to what's mine. Nobody gets to numb me down that way. I make a choice for myself to reach out, to extend a kindness, and a lot happens in that interaction. I'm not going to let "deserve" get in the way. IWYW, — Aswad. I dont disagree with you I should have made it clearer and used quotation marks as in Another aspect of the haves, "deciding" what the have nots "deserve"...even in Canada While I DO believe ideologically that housing and food should be a basic human right, I understand reality, believe it or not. But discrimination to satisfy sensibilities pisses me off. For a twice a month hand out.... its a poor excuse(pardon the pun) in my view

tweakabelle -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/27/2012 8:11:50 AM)
Whatever the merits or demerits of the action this particular congregation took, this incident shows up one of the major flaws of relying on private and/or faith-based charities to deal with issues such as poverty, hunger and homelessness. People engage in 'charitable works' for a variety of reasons, some inspirational some less elevated. That the tap of charity can be turned on or off for reasons that have nothing to do with the end users of those charities is a good argument for more organised discrimination-free welfare administered by organisations that are unable to discriminate against the clients of a particular service. Those who are hungry cold and homeless shouldn't have to rely on the caprices and most definitely not on the prejudices of those more fortunate in life for their survival. Private welfare organisations have their role. But they don't free the rest of us, or the State, from an obligation to adequately help out those citizens in need of assistance.

papassion -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/27/2012 10:29:48 AM)
The story is from Winnipeg? Wait, isn't that in progressive, liberal Canada? You mean kind, fair minded progressives TALK the talk but don't walk the walk? "we love the poor, but don't ACTUALLY want that street trash to come to OUR place!"

Aswad -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/27/2012 5:38:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle But they don't free the rest of us, or the State, from an obligation to adequately help out those citizens in need of assistance. What obligation is that, exactly? I mean, I know why I do it, and I also know it makes perfect practical sense, but I would like to hear this obligation articulated. IWYW, — Aswad.

dcnovice -> RE: Church closes food program because it attracts the poor (8/27/2012 5:39:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: papassion The story is from Winnipeg? Wait, isn't that in progressive, liberal Canada? You mean kind, fair minded progressives TALK the talk but don't walk the walk? "we love the poor, but don't ACTUALLY want that street trash to come to OUR place!" Ah yes, let's take a 12-year-old news story about a single church and use it to slam a whole country--along with anyone who disagrees with you politically. What a breath of intellectual fresh air you bring to our forums.

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