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RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 2:26:28 PM

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One is an historical perspective as to Israel via entangling alliances. That's what got Britain into WWII and really kicked it off, its alliance with Poland. The US is seen as with Israel; so goes Israel so goes the US. There are alliances everywhere. Why does Israel seemingly bow to US pressure?

Yes, especially since the 1967(?) war, we have been entangled. I think Obama has been trying to reach out more to the Muslim world because he is cognizant of the need for balance, don't you think? But the Right accuses O of apologizing for the US and Mitt insists O has been throwing Israel under the bus.

quote:

Another is whether Israel needs the US as big brother. From a Christian pov, if Israel is that Israel of prophecy then it cannot be defeated as it's protector is God himself. Under that rubric Israel should be able to stand US or not.

Yeah, but he has been a fickle and punishing god. Sent them off to exile in Babylon because, according to Amos, Isaiah, etc they were not a righteous nation, or whatever, but they would receive redemption when the messiah came. My point, even god has not been a guarantee for Israel. But, you have a point.

quote:

There's also the perspective as Israel being no different than any other nation so why them and not the Palestinians. Fair question. If the US were to side equally with the Palestinians and work to force a settlement agreeable to all parties would that help relieve pressure on the US as per Israel and even grant Israel added security?

Haven't several US Presidents given this a go? Isn't this complicated now by the Jewish settlements in the West Bank? By the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank?

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 2:39:04 PM

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So where was the Palestinian state? Gobbled up by their Arab neighbors not conquered by Israel.

It was only when the Arabs once again attacked Israel, at the goading of the newly formed PLO, that Israel conquered all the land of the old Mandate.

Quoted and Noted.

quote:

The Palestinains do have legitimate complaints but their messgae will never prevail as long as they embrace terror as a tool.

Don't the Palestinians claim that the IDF has imposed terror on them?
What options do they have given their inferior position? Who is listening to them? They can't even get provisional status at the UN. Do I have that wrong?

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 2:40:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

One is an historical perspective as to Israel via entangling alliances. That's what got Britain into WWII and really kicked it off, its alliance with Poland. The US is seen as with Israel; so goes Israel so goes the US. There are alliances everywhere. Why does Israel seemingly bow to US pressure?

Yes, especially since the 1967(?) war, we have been entangled. I think Obama has been trying to reach out more to the Muslim world because he is cognizant of the need for balance, don't you think?

I think the issue is with Israel and the Palestinians, not the Muslim world writ large.

But the Right accuses O of apologizing for the US and Mitt insists O has been throwing Israel under the bus.

That's politics.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 2:44:45 PM

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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

The Palestinains do have legitimate complaints but their messgae will never prevail as long as they embrace terror as a tool.

Don't the Palestinians claim that the IDF has imposed terror on them?
What options do they have given their inferior position? Who is listening to them? They can't even get provisional status at the UN. Do I have that wrong?

Their best option, and I know it isn't easy, is to go the route of non violent resistance ala Ghandi or MLK. Trust me when I say Israel cannot long maintain their position without the support of American Jews who rally behind Israel in the face of violence but would not support brutality against sit ins and the like.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 2:49:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

The Palestinains do have legitimate complaints but their messgae will never prevail as long as they embrace terror as a tool.

Don't the Palestinians claim that the IDF has imposed terror on them?
What options do they have given their inferior position? Who is listening to them? They can't even get provisional status at the UN. Do I have that wrong?

Their best option, and I know it isn't easy, is to go the route of non violent resistance ala Ghandi or MLK. Trust me when I say Israel cannot long maintain their position without the support of American Jews who rally behind Israel in the face of violence but would not support brutality against sit ins and the like.

Perhaps, but one thing has been discussed and so far meets without Palestinian approval - The right of Israel to exist. That has been a stumbling block to what VincentML said, Haven't several US Presidents given this a go?

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 3:15:05 PM

kdsub

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quote:

It is also quite insulting if you are insinuating the British have any less desire to protect Israel. More so since our troops have indeed been dying in large numbers alongside your own in the war on terror.

Not being British I can't speak for their motivation. The Brits were the victims at times of Jewish nationalism so not sure if they look at Israel’s legitimacy in the same way. So... not knowing I did not mention the UK.

Butch

_____________________________

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(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 3:33:22 PM

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

The Palestinains do have legitimate complaints but their messgae will never prevail as long as they embrace terror as a tool.

Don't the Palestinians claim that the IDF has imposed terror on them?
What options do they have given their inferior position? Who is listening to them? They can't even get provisional status at the UN. Do I have that wrong?

Their best option, and I know it isn't easy, is to go the route of non violent resistance ala Ghandi or MLK. Trust me when I say Israel cannot long maintain their position without the support of American Jews who rally behind Israel in the face of violence but would not support brutality against sit ins and the like.

Perhaps, but one thing has been discussed and so far meets without Palestinian approval - The right of Israel to exist. That has been a stumbling block to what VincentML said, Haven't several US Presidents given this a go?

My assumption is that any such non violent resistance movement would also be moderate and willing to accept a two state solution.

Of course I'm sure our resident Hamas apologist will be along shortly to claim the terrorists are just misunderstood door to door explosives salesmen or some thing.

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 4:26:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

It is also quite insulting if you are insinuating the British have any less desire to protect Israel. More so since our troops have indeed been dying in large numbers alongside your own in the war on terror.

Not being British I can't speak for their motivation. The Brits were the victims at times of Jewish nationalism so not sure if they look at Israel’s legitimacy in the same way. So... not knowing I did not mention the UK.

Butch

Thanks Butch....... Britain has a long history of accepting immigrants of all races and religions.

you have cmail.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 4:37:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Man. Did the British manage to fuck over EVERYONE with their fucked-up 'partition' ideas. Afghanistan/Pakistan. Israel/Palestine. Northern Ireland/Everyone Else....

Partitioning of India wasnt a British idea. Pakistan and India both wanted it and both have said they regret it.

Ireland..... We didnt partition anything, the Irish rebellion started that.

Afghanistan.........Nope we didnt partition that off either.

Israel/Palestine....A UN mandate afaik.

Be critical all you want but at least get your facts right.

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 5:40:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Man. Did the British manage to fuck over EVERYONE with their fucked-up 'partition' ideas. Afghanistan/Pakistan. Israel/Palestine. Northern Ireland/Everyone Else....

Partitioning of India wasnt a British idea. Pakistan and India both wanted it and both have said they regret it.

Ireland..... We didnt partition anything, the Irish rebellion started that.

Afghanistan.........Nope we didnt partition that off either.

Israel/Palestine....A UN mandate afaik.

Be critical all you want but at least get your facts right.

What about MONTY PYTHON... You broke them up though, DIDN'T YOU???? COME ON ADMIT IT!

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 6:20:24 PM

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quote:

Perhaps, but one thing has been discussed and so far meets without Palestinian approval - The right of Israel to exist. That has been a stumbling block to what VincentML said, Haven't several US Presidents given this a go?

I suspect you and I do not have enough information. I am learning as we go along truthfully, but that's why I enjoy this Board. This is not a knock on you but I think the existence of Israel is not an issue for the Palestinians of the West Bank. Their issue seems to be that the Israelis are too much with them. Look at the Oslo Accords which established the Palestinian Authority in 1993 and gave Israel interim security control of large areas of the West Bank . . . and was supposed to lead to the establishment of a Palestinian state. Here are some comments from a recent article I found...

[SNIP]
The Oslo accords created the Palestinian Authority (PA) as an interim body intended to govern parts of the West Bank and Gaza until a permanent settlement with Israel and the creation of a Palestinian state.

But all subsequent attempts to reach such an agreement have failed, and there have been no peace talks for two years.

Critics say that, almost 20 years on, Israel's military occupation and Jewish settlements in the West Bank are more deeply entrenched than ever, and that the PA has provided cover for Israeli actions.

[SNIP] (the PA is talking about abandoning the Oslo accords)

The issue has been raised amid continuing protests in West Bank cities over the rising cost of living despite an emergency economic package announced last week by the prime minister, Salam Fayyad. Some protesters have demanded the scrapping of the Paris protocol, an economic appendix to the Oslo accords, which pegs Palestinian VAT to Israeli rates.

The financial crisis in the Palestinian territories was deepening, according to a World Bank report released on Wednesday that blamed an economic slowdown, a fall in donor aid and "few positive prospects in the broader political environment".

It said that Area C, the 60% of the West Bank assigned to full Israeli control under the Oslo accords, contained most of the territory's agricultural lands, natural resources and land reserves. "Sustainable economic growth cannot be achieved without a removal of the barriers preventing private sector development, particularly in Area C," said Mariam Sherman at the Bank.

Mustafa Barghouti, a former presidential candidate, said the Palestinian leadership was serious about reviewing the Oslo accords. "The agreement has become a cover for the Israelis' policy of expanding settlements and creating a system of apartheid on the ground," he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/19/palestinian-leadership-oslo-accords

We need to look at it from the Palestinian pov also. Why does Israel continue to subsidize settlements and keep troops in the Palestinian land?

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: Israel - 9/28/2012 6:22:06 PM

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What about MONTY PYTHON... You broke them up though, DIDN'T YOU???? COME ON ADMIT IT!

You are a cruel woman, FGG!

(in reply to FMRFGOPGAL)

RE: Israel - 9/29/2012 3:42:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

What about MONTY PYTHON... You broke them up though, DIDN'T YOU???? COME ON ADMIT IT!

"I fart in your general direction"

(in reply to FMRFGOPGAL)

RE: Israel - 9/29/2012 4:54:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
We need to look at it from the Palestinian pov also. Why does Israel continue to subsidize settlements and keep troops in the Palestinian land?

No doubt about that. As to why, I'd think Israel would see it as a security buffer.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 9/29/2012 6:17:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
We need to look at it from the Palestinian pov also. Why does Israel continue to subsidize settlements and keep troops in the Palestinian land?

No doubt about that. As to why, I'd think Israel would see it as a security buffer.

If America's troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia provoke Arab rage against us should it be any wonder that Israeli troops in the West Bank provoke Arab rage against them?

If that is how they see it then any negotiation for a two state solution is a pretense by Israel, isn't it?

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: Israel - 9/29/2012 6:42:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

If America's troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia provoke Arab rage against us should it be any wonder that Israeli troops in the West Bank provoke Arab rage against them?

If that is how they see it then any negotiation for a two state solution is a pretense by Israel, isn't it?

The US meddling in the ME is, imo, very different than Israel's existence in the ME. The US could pull completely out of the ME and such would not effect Israel's plight in the slightest as to any view of Israel the Arab states might have. The US could split, but the Israelis are not going anywhere.

Not necessarily. One thing is that for there to be negotiations as to a Palestinian state the Israelis want acknowledgement of their right to exist. I can understand that, if at least from a world stage, high ground, pov. Why negotiate and create a Palestinian state as a neighbor who's desire is to see you disappear? The Palestinians aren't going anywhere either, so the only benefit to Israel would be such world stage acknowledgement.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 9/29/2012 10:49:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

If America's troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia provoke Arab rage against us should it be any wonder that Israeli troops in the West Bank provoke Arab rage against them?

If that is how they see it then any negotiation for a two state solution is a pretense by Israel, isn't it?

The US meddling in the ME is, imo, very different than Israel's existence in the ME. The US could pull completely out of the ME and such would not effect Israel's plight in the slightest as to any view of Israel the Arab states might have. The US could split, but the Israelis are not going anywhere.

Not necessarily. One thing is that for there to be negotiations as to a Palestinian state the Israelis want acknowledgement of their right to exist. I can understand that, if at least from a world stage, high ground, pov. Why negotiate and create a Palestinian state as a neighbor who's desire is to see you disappear? The Palestinians aren't going anywhere either, so the only benefit to Israel would be such world stage acknowledgement.

The more I read and learn the more I am inclined to think [like Romney] the achievement of a two state solution is unlikely to happen. Even if it did and there came along with it a de facto and de jure acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist by the nations of the world, it seems unlikely that Israel will ever be received favorably by the Islamists of the Muslim world. Israel will remain then in a very precarious position existentially with unending pressure for its demise. That may very well be its prognosis regardless of a settlement of the West Bank issues. The question then will be whether the USA will continue its military and economic support and for how long. How is our national interest best served in the decades ahead?

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: Israel - 9/29/2012 11:40:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Even if it did and there came along with it a de facto and de jure acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist by the nations of the world, it seems unlikely that Israel will ever be received favorably by the Islamists of the Muslim world. Israel will remain then in a very precarious position existentially with unending pressure for its demise.

To that I have no doubt. Israel is a fuse in the ME. My bet is that someday someone is going to light it.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 9/29/2012 12:18:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

What about MONTY PYTHON... You broke them up though, DIDN'T YOU???? COME ON ADMIT IT!

"I fart in your general direction"

Okay... I'll be nice... I guess I am just upset that you sent Dennis Moore to run for President here in the US

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Israel - 9/29/2012 11:18:29 PM

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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

The more I read and learn the more I am inclined to think [like Romney] the achievement of a two state solution is unlikely to happen. Even if it did and there came along with it a de facto and de jure acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist by the nations of the world, it seems unlikely that Israel will ever be received favorably by the Islamists of the Muslim world. Israel will remain then in a very precarious position existentially with unending pressure for its demise. That may very well be its prognosis regardless of a settlement of the West Bank issues. The question then will be whether the USA will continue its military and economic support and for how long. How is our national interest best served in the decades ahead?

Much as it saddens me to say it, the window to the Two State solution has closed. Israeli colonisation of the West Bank has slammed it shut, with over half a million Israelis now resident in the West Bank. Is any one suggesting that Israel is going to repatriate these 500,000 odd citizens? Even assuming coloniser/'settler' resistance to repatriation is non-violent ( a rather rash assumption) Israel will be unable to absorb such numbers. A civil war is a more likely outcome.

Internal threats pose a far greater risk to Israeli security than any external threat. Israel is a nuclear power, with most experts' suggesting an arsenal of between 200 and 400 warheads. There is no neighbouring country or alliance of neighbouring countries with the firepower to match the IDF, nor is there any likelihood of one emerging in the short- to mid-term future. There is no realistic conventional military threat to Israel's existence and no likelihood of one emerging in the forseeable future.

The responsibility for the failure of the Two State solution is Israel's and Israel's alone. It has consistently chosen expanding the colonies/'settlements' in the full knowledge that each little expansion made the Two State solution that little bit less viable, until eventually it becomes an impossible pipe dream - exactly what has happened. The US has consistently opposed settlement expansion. Now the US has to deal with the results of Israel defying its wishes and going ahead with settlement expansion.

Settlement expansion is not only destructive to the peace process, it also flagrantly contravenes international law, as the US and other countries have pointed out. Is the US going to reward Israel's criminal behaviour, behaviour that has made the US sponsored peace process unworkable? Should the US be arming a country that has repeatedly demonstrated its antipathy towards peace?

One factor working in favour of a genuine peace in this protracted conflict is that the unquestioning support for Israel from the US's influential Jewish community is fracturing, with many American Jews so disgusted with Israeli behaviour they are speaking out against it and disputing the AIPAC monopoly. A more open debate in the US would make Israel aware it cannot take US support for granted, helping to force Israel to the negotiating table. Check out the link for one example of this fracturing process, published in 'The Nation' a few days ago:
http://www.thenation.com/article/170117/false-prophecy-and-real-history-mideast?utm_source=Mondoweiss+List&utm_campaign=7f3bccff5b-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email#

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/29/2012 11:36:53 PM >

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(in reply to vincentML)

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