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RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 12:15:42 PM

kdsub

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quote:

At this point it is really Palestine's fight for survival at stake. Please don't pretend that the "American people" know what a just settlement looks like and what it will take to get there.

America does not care what Palestine thinks Vince… This is reality and you and they must realize this.

There is only one avenue for peace…Stop the violence.

The onus is on Palestine and its allies not the US and Israel. If the Palestinians want the average Americans support they MUST:

Get control of the various terrorist groups that continually and purposely torpedo every negotiation.

Sue for peace

Guarantee Israel’s right to exist.

If they do the above America and its people will demand Israel negotiate in good faith and that would include borders and settlements.

The above is the reality and only reality… who is right or wrong… past actions of either one make no difference. They must move forward and not dwell in the past for any chance of peace.

People can talk till they are blue in the face over who did what when and who’s fault this or that is and it will not bring peace. And peace must come from both sides but not under the gun.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 12:19:11 PM

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I think you don't understand where supreme leader Ali Khamenei was heading to, he called for a regime change in Israel, not for war.

And yes there is a big difference between calling for a regime change and threaten for war.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 12:20:14 PM

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With other words, its leading to nothing but war....

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 12:22:12 PM

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Can't we give everyone on the region short-range nukes? Just flush the whole region down the toilet and start over? I mean it was a decent run but after a couple thousand years maybe get some new players in there.

(in reply to ermood)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 12:29:51 PM

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Like i said before, the desisions that are made in Iran are not made by Dr. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad but by supreme leader Ali Khamenei.

And giving be the bbc as source is like giving me a western source, with other words... propaganda.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/10/22/268190/ahmadinejad-repeats-prison-visit-request/ Here is what they say themselfs about it.

Tehran's Evin Prison can't reject a visit from Dr. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, if he wants to go he can just go.

Lots of time people talk about life in prisons, and lots of people say life in prison in countries such as Iran is the worst life you can imagine.
They think that the prisons in Iran are just like the prisons in Thailand or Brazil for example, Well for those people a link that disproves this once and for all...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W64qBZWqBoA

< Message edited by ermood -- 10/23/2012 12:36:58 PM >

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 12:34:00 PM

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Nukes only prevent war my friend;)

Look at Russia, USA and China, the only reason why they aren't kicking eachothers asses is becouse they have nukes, same example with Pakistan and India...

The fact that their "enemy" has nukes to prevents them from using theirs.

(in reply to Whippedboy)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 1:06:52 PM

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quote:

Get control of the various terrorist groups that continually and purposely torpedo every negotiation.

Shouldn't that include the Settlers? Come on, Butch. How can you negotiate with armed squatters who have settled in your back yard?

What violence are you talking about? The IDF has control of most of the West Bank. You are avoiding the issue by telling the oppressed to stop struggling.

Sue for peace? Arafat did that in 1993 in Oslo. Israel has delayed implementation of its obligations under that agreement or ignored them. How can they be trusted in future negotiations?

Guarantee Israel's right to exist? The West Bank Palestinians did that, or Arafat did that for them in Oslo.

America doesn't care what Palestine thinks . . . so I ask you again: what is a just peace if you only care for one side? Don't you mean a just surrender?

And peace must come from both sides but not under the gun? The one with the gun is Israel not Palestine.

You are parroting propaganda, Butch.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 1:08:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

The current Israeli president and his platform is unpopular in his nation and there is an election coming the January. Perhaps some of the Israeli saber waving is electioneering rhetoric.

Not true. Read Tweak's link in her last post.

(in reply to YN)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 1:43:27 PM

kdsub

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quote:

Sue for peace? Arafat did that in 1993 in Oslo. Israel has delayed implementation of its obligations under that agreement or ignored them. How can they be trusted in future negotiations?

This is not true Vince...Israel did follow through with every specification of the agreement….until terrorists attacks in 96 against Israel torpedoed the agreement.

Then in 2000 after offering 91 percent of the West Bank and all of Gaza…Arafat initially agreed then backed out.

quote:

Guarantee Israel's right to exist? The West Bank Palestinians did that, or Arafat did that for them in Oslo.

It must be the part of every agreement and agreed to by all Palestinian parties not just one.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 1:58:32 PM

YN

Posts: 699
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

The current Israeli president and his platform is unpopular in his nation and there is an election coming the January. Perhaps some of the Israeli saber waving is electioneering rhetoric.

Not true. Read Tweak's link in her last post.

Actually I did read tweakebelle's valid and useful link, however the external politics of a nation often differ from those inside one, especially during a national election.

In this case the example as reported in the Anglo press is -

quote:

Israel's parliament has voted to dissolve itself and schedule an election in January, setting the stage for the beginning of an intense political campaign in the Middle Eastern nation.

The election is set for January 22, moved up from October 2013, according to a statement on the Knesset website Tuesday.

Last week, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called for the early election after failing to agree on a budget with his coalition partners, saying the vote should be held "as soon as possible" for the good of the country.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/16/world/meast/israel-elections/index.html

Additionally there have been large public demonstrations in Israel during the last year by the working and middle classes over the Isreali government's alleged sins.

The Israeli government is a parliamentarian republic and an inability to get a budget passed is often essentially equal to a vote of no confidence in most parliamentary legislatures. The English here can likely translate the principles better.

Netanyahu and his party must rally support, and warmongering is a traditional method world-wide.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 2:01:51 PM

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quote:

This is not true Vince...Israel did follow through with every specification of the agreement….until terrorists attacks in 96 against Israel torpedoed the agreement.

So simple to blame "terrorists" Butch. Here is another view of the failure:

The preceding statement leads into one of the greatest characteristics of why the Oslo Accords resulted in failure. The agreements so strongly favored the interests of the Israelis that concessions were out of balance, resulting in a lack of motivation for Israelis to continue giving concessions after they were satisfied, and frustration on the side of Palestinians-who felt that they would never receive the recognition of a Palestinian state that they thought the Oslo process would give them. The weakness of the PLO, and as a result, the Palestinians, caused many of the benefits to Palestinians to be deferred until the end of the agreement and "allowed for the implementation of interim arrangements without a prior Israeli commitment that these arrangements would necessarily lead to independent statehood."[9] The Palestinians basically traded "peace now" for "land later"-while the Israelis could use the interim period to expand their settlements and avoid following through on its concessions simply by claiming that the Palestinians continued to support anti-Israeli terrorism

< Message edited by vincentML -- 10/23/2012 2:07:43 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 2:06:15 PM

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quote:

Netanyahu and his party must rally support, and warmongering is a traditional method world-wide.

Well, I will not disagree. Tweak previously pointed out the numerous times Israel PMs cried 'wolf' over Iran's nuclear program. Back into the last century if I recall correctly.

(in reply to YN)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 2:24:13 PM

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You may found this very intresting, its regarding to the origins of the Israel/Palestinian conflict and it also explains why it will not end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb6IiSUxpgw

Some other intresting documentaries:

-Invasion of Iraq: How the British and Americans got it wrong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcxzigtuR9w

-Documentary on IRAN Iran Is Not the Problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Jg41szSg4

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 3:46:26 PM

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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

The current Israeli president and his platform is unpopular in his nation and there is an election coming the January. Perhaps some of the Israeli saber waving is electioneering rhetoric.

I'm sad to report that this may not be the case.

In shocking results of an opinion poll published yesterday, a majority of Israelis support the apartheid system Israel operates on the West bank, and oppose Palestinian rights:
"More than two-thirds of the 503 Jewish citizens questioned by the polling company Dialog said they would oppose voting rights for the 2.5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank if it was annexed to Israel.
And 42 per cent indicated they did not want to live in the same building as Arabs or have their children in the same class as Arab children, the poll found.
When specifically questioned on the thorny issue of whether there is apartheid in Israel, 58 per cent said there was – of those, 39 per cent said apartheid existed "in some respects" and 19 per cent said it existed "in many respects". Thirty-one per cent believed there was no apartheid.
The findings confirm what many Palestinians living in Israel say they experience – a system of entrenched unfairness in which everything from government jobs to education, health services and even garbage collection is affected.
"There is a very intricate, pervasive system of discrimination against Palestinians in Israel," said Hanan Ashrawi, a member of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation executive committee. "I blame the ongoing occupation, the lack of accountability and the extremely hostie policies and rhetoric of Netanyahu and his coalition."
http://www.smh.com.au/world/israelis-back-discrimination-against-arabs-poll-20121024-2844m.html#ixzz2AEcu0yV5

It seems Israelis prefer land theft, racism and apartheid to peace. " "Israelis themselves … are openly, shamelessly and guiltlessly defining themselves as nationalistic racists," commented Gideon Levy in Haaretz. It will interesting to see how America's Jewish community and other 'liberals' react - traditionally Jewish communities have supported liberal values and opposed racism.

The choice is now between opposing racism and apartheid on one hand, and supporting Israel on the other.

_____________________________

(in reply to YN)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 4:33:19 PM

YN

Posts: 699
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

The current Israeli president and his platform is unpopular in his nation and there is an election coming the January. Perhaps some of the Israeli saber waving is electioneering rhetoric.

I'm sad to report that this may not be the case.

In shocking results of an opinion poll published yesterday, a majority of Israelis support the apartheid system Israel operates on the West bank, and oppose Palestinian rights:
"More than two-thirds of the 503 Jewish citizens questioned by the polling company Dialog said they would oppose voting rights for the 2.5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank if it was annexed to Israel.
And 42 per cent indicated they did not want to live in the same building as Arabs or have their children in the same class as Arab children, the poll found.
When specifically questioned on the thorny issue of whether there is apartheid in Israel, 58 per cent said there was – of those, 39 per cent said apartheid existed "in some respects" and 19 per cent said it existed "in many respects". Thirty-one per cent believed there was no apartheid.
The findings confirm what many Palestinians living in Israel say they experience – a system of entrenched unfairness in which everything from government jobs to education, health services and even garbage collection is affected.
"There is a very intricate, pervasive system of discrimination against Palestinians in Israel," said Hanan Ashrawi, a member of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation executive committee. "I blame the ongoing occupation, the lack of accountability and the extremely hostie policies and rhetoric of Netanyahu and his coalition."
http://www.smh.com.au/world/israelis-back-discrimination-against-arabs-poll-20121024-2844m.html#ixzz2AEcu0yV5

It seems Israelis prefer land theft, racism and apartheid to peace. " "Israelis themselves … are openly, shamelessly and guiltlessly defining themselves as nationalistic racists," commented Gideon Levy in Haaretz. It will interesting to see how America's Jewish community and other 'liberals' react - traditionally Jewish communities have supported liberal values and opposed racism.

The choice is now between opposing racism and apartheid on one hand, and supporting Israel on the other.

Perhaps.

We both have noted in this thread, the current platform of Netanyahu towards Iran has a ~70% disapproval rating among the Isrelite public, so braying it more loudly will not help him with the voters.

And the demonstrations have been on the issues caused by Netanyahu's domestic policies, there have been ones of anti-tax hikes, anti-austerity, ant-inflation, and cost of living, even disabled veterans publicly setting themselves in flames with gasoline to protest their plights intheir ranks, among other similar grounds, and Netanyahu is the king of the villians according to the reports.

Would you bet anything valuable on the results being entirely favorable to Netanyahu, and his Party, in the election that is underway?

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 5:17:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
The onus is on Palestine and its allies not the US and Israel. If the Palestinians want the average Americans support they MUST:

Get control of the various terrorist groups that continually and purposely torpedo every negotiation.

I'm dubious that the Palestinians can get control of the IDF at this point.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 5:27:15 PM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

I'm dubious that the Palestinians can get control of the IDF at this point.

Make all the fun you want Moon but THIS crap must stop. Would the UK allow this to happen without retaliation...could any government survive and allow it?

This is an everyday thing…how can peace grow with rockets falling on their heads?

It makes no difference if they are retaliating for past grievances…It must stop.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 5:37:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

The current Israeli president and his platform is unpopular in his nation and there is an election coming the January. Perhaps some of the Israeli saber waving is electioneering rhetoric.

Not true. Read Tweak's link in her last post.

I was under the imression that was automatic. Perhaps even simultaneous.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 5:39:24 PM

kdsub

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Vince there is no way around history...The accords were agreed to....Israel followed every stipulation of the agreement...the Palestinians or their proxies broke the agreement with terrorism.

Your link is just saying…the Palestinians with forethought signed an agreement then later changed their minds and broke the agreement with violence. It was not Israel that backed out but the Palestinians.

What else is there to say… They should not have signed the agreement if they did not plan to carry it through or believe it was fair.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/23/2012 5:41:11 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 5:48:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ermood

I think you don't understand where supreme leader Ali Khamenei was heading to, he called for a regime change in Israel, not for war.

Yeah, the boobie hatch. Who cares what that psycho misogyonistic methuselah thinks?

He's run out his rope. The sanctions are working. and don't be surprised if he gets a REAL BAD COLD soon.

(in reply to ermood)

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