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RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 9:01:38 PM

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quote:

What else is there to say… They should not have signed the agreement if they did not plan to carry it through or believe it was fair.

Butch . . . there was no Palestinian government. Arafat was flown in as a quasi-repesentative. He was a convenient tool. The whole idea of Oslo was to establish a government for the Palestinians so Israel could live in peace. It was not an agreement between equals. As the stronger partner it was incumbent upon Israel for her own sake to help the Palestinians. Instead, her leaders pushed colonization of the land designated for the Palestinians. So, no surprise when the inequity was met with rock throwing.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 9:23:38 PM

kdsub

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No...it was an agreement by the recognized authority...if they had grievances they should have went back to the negotiation table rather than violence.

There is no getting around the facts with why’s and what ifs. The government of Israel followed the agreement to the letter. It was the Palestinians that broke the agreement with death and destruction.

But…all that is past on both sides and must be forgiven…or at least understood… so they can move on today.

There is wrong doing on both sides and it makes no difference if one side is more powerful. Wrong is wrong and there is plenty to go around.

So they can live in the past and butcher each other for eternity or they start a new day with the chance of peace. But both sides need to hold out the olive branch…not just Israel.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/23/2012 11:26:38 PM

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quote:

there was no Palestinian government. Arafat was flown in as a quasi-repesentative. He was a convenient tool. The whole idea of Oslo was to establish a government for the Palestinians so Israel could live in peace. It was not an agreement between equals. As the stronger partner it was incumbent upon Israel for her own sake to help the Palestinians. Instead, her leaders pushed colonization of the land designated for the Palestinians. So, no surprise when the inequity was met with rock throwing.

Vincent, when the discussion takes this turn, it saddens me greatly that so many people are unaware of the vision of Gen Peled, the Israeli war hero. Immediately after the '67 war concluded, the General advocated returning the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians and for Israel and the West to support the new State to ensure its success. Had this happened back then, this discussion would not be happening. In fact, the whole Palestine/Israel conflict would have been resolved amicably decades ago.

Instead, we see on this thread the re-cycling of old myths and Israeli PR/propaganda by people who are unaware of the full picture. Below is a link to a talk given by the General's son and peace activist Miko Peled. I urge people to watch it - it is eye opening, especially considering its source comes from the heart of the Israeli establishment. It clears up many of the falsehoods and myths surrounding the peace process that are being re-cycled as 'fact' here.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32739.htm

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/23/2012 11:35:12 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 4:19:37 AM

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FR,

I have removed a post and posts that replied to it. If you'd like your content back, please write to me.

I apologize that the following is not yet a sticky. Bottom line - being critical of the Israeli state does not make a person an antisemitic and so calling someone an antisemite based on their criticism of the Israeli state is a personal attack.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4248457

quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminAlpha

Disparaging either Jews as a whole, or individually, or the Jewish race/religion solely or substantially on account of their Jewishness or following recognized practices whether religious or not that is attributable to being either of the Jewish race or religion, singling out Jews for special treatment solely because they are Jewish. This all addresses their RACE or religion, it has nothing to do with political beliefs or the arena. Therefore, criticism of the Israeli state is not anti-Semitism. Other racial/religious comments that are not allowed can include, but not be limited to, any derogatory comment attacking someone because of something they practice or believe because of their race, gender, religious, or sexual beliefs.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 4:29:34 AM

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Thank you for intervening. It was an unfortunate comment.

(in reply to VideoAdminChi)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 4:47:03 AM

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quote:

But…all that is past on both sides and must be forgiven…or at least understood… so they can move on today.

Wrong, Butch. The oppression of the Palestinians and the land grab continues today.

quote:

There is wrong doing on both sides and it makes no difference if one side is more powerful. Wrong is wrong and there is plenty to go around.

It makes a great difference if a neighbor with a mighty army and nuclear weapons is destroyiing villages and tearing down olive groves belonging to people who have only paving stones as weapons.

quote:

But both sides need to hold out the olive branch…not just Israel.

Unintended irony by you, Butch.
1.2 Million Palestinian Olive Trees Uprooted in Palestinian Occupied Territories

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 7:19:48 AM

kdsub

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quote:

Wrong, Butch. The oppression of the Palestinians and the land grab continues today

Yes and I am dead against it...and the rockets continue to fall...I am dead against that too... Now will either action make peace?

But just pointing out the faults and aggressions of one side and totally ignoring the other as some do here on cm does no one any good. Reality must be faced to save lives.

quote:

people who have only paving stones as weapons.

But somehow manage to drop 800 high explosive rockets on women and children...And to add the Israelis manage to kill their fair share of women and children as well... Is it not amazing how rational people filled with hate can be so unreasonable...so uncaring of their future and the future of their children?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/24/2012 7:36:36 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 8:39:21 AM

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quote:

Yes and I am dead against it...and the rockets continue to fall...I am dead against that too... Now will either action make peace?

You are conflating and confusing two different issues. Israel is not occupying Gaza. Only choking it. The occupation and land grab we have been talking about is in the West Bank. No rockets being fired by Palestiinians from there.

quote:

But just pointing out the faults and aggressions of one side and totally ignoring the other as some do here on cm does no one any good. Reality must be faced to save lives.

That is exactly the point of anti-zionist posts in this thread. The aggressions of the Israeli occupation are ignored and the Palestinians are swept away as evil terrorists. As you revealed earlier, Americans don't care about the plight of the Palestinians. Let me suggest one step futher . . the Palestinians as people have disappeared from the American conciousness, having been replaced by 'terrorists.' They are invisible to the American mind. It is a familiar psychological/propagandist process to dehumanise and denigrate the 'other.' Look at your own words . . for you they have become "people filled with hate can be so unreasonable...so uncaring of their future and the future of their children?" How demeaning and denigrating is that!!

It is very encouraging to me that you declare yourself against the oppression and the on going land grab in the West Bank. It is a humanitarian position, Butch. Thank you.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 10/24/2012 8:43:26 AM >

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 9:20:37 AM

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Its very inportent to know what supreme leader Ali Khamenei is thinking, it has all to do with Iran and so with this thread.

If you don't care then you simply have no place here.

The sanctions are already running since 1979, so no the sanctions aren't working at all, it only gives Iran a chance to build its own economy and it has given Iran the time to allie with other nations that oppose the US.

So, please stop with this nonsense and try to post something usefull...

(in reply to FMRFGOPGAL)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 11:51:03 AM

kdsub

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quote:

You are conflating and confusing two different issues

Not at all...these issues are at the heart of the problems...each partially causing the other. There is nothing confusing about it.

As for the rest of your post it just shows your view from a side rather than the middle as mine. But of course it is just our opinions as to where each stands.

I think we can agree that all in the area are suffering if not physically then mentally. And only they can come to a lasting agreement but only without continued violence.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 2:18:19 PM

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http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/24/268523/israeli-planes-attack-sudan-arms-factory/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/23/268277/alshabab-warns-worstever-attack-on-uk/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/24/268414/iran-will-hold-firstever-cyber-drills/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/24/268428/iran-halts-oil-sales-if-bans-tighten/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/24/268508/iran-to-unveil-new-hovercraft-missiles/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/14/266646/us-drone-attack-kills-4-in-somalia/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/24/268558/iranophobia/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/24/268516/nuclear-bomb-not-on-iran-agenda-russia/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/24/268572/iran-slams-canadas-human-rights-claims/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/24/268455/iran-worthy-partner-to-europe/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/24/268486/syria-insurgents-use-usmade-weaponry/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/24/268560/progovt-forces-take-control-of-bani-walid/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/23/268272/us-france-mull-moving-drones-to-mali/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/24/268478/us-not-allowed-to-run-afghan-prisons/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/24/268445/uk-suspected-of-encouraging-war-crimes/

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/10/23/268357/us-admits-to-killing-afghan-civilians/

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 4:16:00 PM

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quote:

I think we can agree that all in the area are suffering if not physically then mentally. And only they can come to a lasting agreement but only without continued violence.

Butch, the historical parallel is the meeting between President Andrew Jackson and the representatives from the Cherokee Nation. Said Andy: Just sign this little treaty and all our suffering will end. Oh btw, we have a lovely journey for you to take. Just a stroll westward and we will give you your own land.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 10/24/2012 4:18:06 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 4:29:38 PM

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Some US soldiers telling about the warcrimes that are committed in both Afghanistan and Iraq

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T8IfQNl-_8

< Message edited by ermood -- 10/24/2012 5:24:54 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 4:36:04 PM

YN

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Iran supporting the Palestine reactionaries with a sense of solidarity is in large part a fiction, and more probably is motivated as a function of their cold war with Israel.

(in reply to ermood)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 4:40:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Iran supporting the Palestine reactionaries with a sense of solidarity is in large part a fiction, and more probably is motivated as a function of their cold war with Israel.

Wait!! You mean people LIE? Shocking.

(in reply to YN)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 4:42:37 PM

kdsub

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MORE

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 4:51:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ermood

Its very inportent to know what supreme leader Ali Khamenei is thinking, it has all to do with Iran and so with this thread.

If you don't care then you simply have no place here.

The sanctions are already running since 1979, so no the sanctions aren't working at all, it only gives Iran a chance to build its own economy and it has given Iran the time to allie with other nations that oppose the US.

So, please stop with this nonsense and try to post something usefull...

The latest sanctions are way different from those of 1979 and are very effective.

(in reply to ermood)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 4:58:17 PM

kdsub

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Vince I didn't say surrender...they do have power in allies and proxies...they can negotiate from a position of power just as Israel can. They just need to get their shit together...speak with one voice...stop the violence...That’s all it will take, or the first step, to at least put world pressure on Israel to negotiate in good faith as well.

It is simple Vince... you keep trying to spit up the past...you claim there is no chance in compromise and a negotiated fair settlement.. will there isn't if you don't earnestly try.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 5:00:29 PM

YN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: ermood

Its very inportent to know what supreme leader Ali Khamenei is thinking, it has all to do with Iran and so with this thread.

If you don't care then you simply have no place here.

The sanctions are already running since 1979, so no the sanctions aren't working at all, it only gives Iran a chance to build its own economy and it has given Iran the time to allie with other nations that oppose the US.

So, please stop with this nonsense and try to post something usefull...

The latest sanctions are way different from those of 1979 and are very effective.

That is not certain, Iran has been sanctioned in one way or another for much of a hundred years.

Evidence of their furthering their trading into the central parts of Asia is probably easy to find. They were the area operators of the Silk Road for centuries. The Central Asians do not need oil, but have a need for other Iranian products.

< Message edited by YN -- 10/24/2012 5:01:13 PM >

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Iran VS Israel - 10/24/2012 5:19:22 PM

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Cold war with Israel?

Iran didn't chose side in the cold war, Iran had never a war with Israel and doesn't want one...

Israel even supported Iran during the cold war (Iraq-Iran war), but that was ofcourse all planned out by the US gouverment...

Iran has always supported Palestine, and not becouse of the same reasons like Jordan/Egypt/Saudi-Arabia and Syria, but for the reason that matters...humanity.

(in reply to YN)

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