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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 8:36:06 AM

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Im not a fundamentalist.

I do not believe in a god.

I do not follow a formal religion.

I came to these conclusions on my own.

Its really simple.

I say belief.. and any atheist within hearing distance automatically gets all up in arms and wants to fight. I actually find it laughable.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 8:41:30 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

That argument is a ridiculous and stupidly reductive line of crap popular with fundamentalists who like to stress that "atheism is a religion too".

Big words, ridiculous and stupid, considering that atheism certainly does posit the nonexistence of gods, which is strictly a belief.

quote:

Not it isn't, and when you look at some of the drivel creationists spout about the scientific method, it quickly becomes clear that they don't know the first thing about it, [...]

What does creationism have to do with anything?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 9:10:02 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
With prayer where is the causal chain?

There is none.

Initiating mode: Spiritual (i.e. a want, desire, determination; often focussed, specified and bundled in a prayer or magic ritual)
Receiving mode: A) Heard (spiritual request is above threshold), or B) Not Heard (spiritual request is below threshold)
If A, Feasibility mode: C) Spiritual request can be executed (i.e. is possible), or D) Spiritual request can not be executed (i.e. is impossible).
If C, Weighing mode: E) Spiritual request prevails over other considerations (like for example opposing spiritual requests), or F) Spiritual request does not prevail
Execution mode: If E, spiritual request is answered positively; If F, spiritual request is ignored ("No answer is an answer"); if D, either - if possible - a dud answer may be delivered, or the spiritual request may be ignored.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Who's wild assertion for what's answering the prayers should we go with?

Mine.

That was easy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
What are these mysterious ways anyway?

Far below quantum mechanical. (Very small particles that are not in our universe turning the wheels that are in our universe, ultimately changing the behavior higher up the chain of the quantum mechanical particles that we are familiar with.)

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 9:10:15 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
...atheism certainly does posit the nonexistence of gods...

Bullshit.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 9:11:13 AM

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UHHHHHHHHHHHH. How not?

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 9:19:08 AM

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quote:

Big words, ridiculous and stupid, considering that atheism certainly does posit the nonexistence of gods, which is strictly a belief.

Athiest remain unconvinced of the existance of a god just as I remain unconvinced that 2+2 =13. To claim that your lack of proof constitutes a belief system for me is hardly rational or logical.

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 11:26:17 AM

OpenMindOpenHand

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"ORIGINAL: subspaceseven

If God already knows what is going to happen, then he should also know that an abortion is going to happen. If he knows all then he is aware of the USSC ruling allowing for abortions. So what are the conservatives bitching about, it is set in motion, God's will that the abortion take place, people can't have it both ways, God's will only works for them and not for others "

That is a statement of absolute insanity.That's like saying that if you send your kids off to school in the morning, you know that a shooting might occur there, so you should be condemned to death for their murder, whether it actually happens or not, because you obviously wanted your child murdered or you wouldn't have sent them to school! It is just that ludicrous.

People who get abortions are responsible for the abortions they get. God does not drive them to the abortion clinic. Instead, he provides them with very healthy guidelines, which, if they followed, would prevent them from getting themselves or others pregnant, help them have better health if they did get pregnant, and help them to be the sort of people who appreciated the life of all children.

Also, if you knew anything about the Bible, you'd probably know about a certain story of some people who were told that things things were definitely going to happen to them, due to their behavior. They were not told "maybe" either. It was just that bad things were going to happen to them and they would be destroyed. And, instead of saying "Oh, God says it has to be this way, so let's go kill another baby." they said something more like "Oh dear! We really have screwed up, then, haven't we?" and they changed. And, they were forgiven and the bad things did not happen to them.

See, that's part of free will. God says some things HAVE to happen, such as that the earth will be populated by his people in the end, as he had purposed it to be in the beginning. We didn't have to sell ourselves into slavery to Satan, and once sold by our parents, we did not have to remain in slavery to Satan. We didn't have to have wars, rape, murder, thievery, lying, child abuse, etc. Each of us always had a choice as to whether we would or would not engage in any of those. He did not say it HAD to happen, but, that it WOULD happen. He has been proven to be right. It DID happen. It never had to, though. The fact that it did, and still does, makes it a longer and harder fight to get back to the way life should be. That's all.

Edited to add this:

"ORIGINAL: Moonhead

That argument is a ridiculous and stupidly reductive line of crap popular with fundamentalists who like to stress that "atheism is a religion too""

Atheism is a religion. Oddly enough, Christians used to be called atheists. However, I am not even talking about that context. I'm talking about religion being what you dedicate your life to.

More or less, if it is an "ism" then it is a religion. Judaism, Catholicism, patriotism, taoism. Why? It is a way of life and more than just a style of living. Some people worship money, some sex, some their country, some their belief that we are alone and there is no God.

It doesn't matter what it is. They dedicate their life to it, they fight for it, they sometimes even die or kill for it. It is their religion.

There is no such thing as a non-dedicated atheist. You really have to believe there is no God to really be an atheist, and you have to believe it to the point of refusing to study and consider the Bible, the Koran, the way many Buddhist teachings reflect the truths within, ignore the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and discount thousands of years of history rife with provable truths. That is religion.

< Message edited by OpenMindOpenHand -- 11/7/2012 11:32:47 AM >

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 11:33:25 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Athiest remain unconvinced of the existance of a god just as I remain unconvinced that 2+2 =13. To claim that your lack of proof constitutes a belief system for me is hardly rational or logical.

The lack of proof is immaterial to what I said: atheism doesn't posit "I don't know", it posits "it isn't so".

«Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.»

I don't use the "most inclusive" definition, mostly because "every" person I've met that actually held that position used more appropriate terms, like agnosticism (a.k.a. shrug, I dunno) and apatheism (a.k.a. shrug, so what), to describe themselves, but also quite frankly it's a nonproductive reduction in specificity of language to accomodate both positions under the same heading. If you're honest, you'll no doubt recognize that there's a substantial difference between the minority with no belief and the majority with a belief in the nonexistence of deities.

I don't smoke.

I'm not a non-smoker.

There's a difference there; do you see it?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 11:36:06 AM

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quote:

The lack of proof is immaterial to what I said: atheism doesn't posit "I don't know", it posits "it isn't so".

Just as 2+2=13 ain't so till you prove it.

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 11:43:58 AM

Rule

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I disagree with just about every assertion in your post.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 11:54:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I disagree with just about every assertion in your post.

I agree - (with Rule -that is)

< Message edited by JanahX -- 11/7/2012 11:57:14 AM >

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 12:10:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
The lack of proof is immaterial to what I said: atheism doesn't posit "I don't know", it posits "it isn't so".

There are a number of us who take the position that we don't know and we don't think you know either so when you start making wild assertions we call bullshit and point out that your position is unjustified.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 12:14:37 PM

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Do you believe in unicorns?

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 1:02:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
. . . the minority with no belief and the majority with a belief in the nonexistence of deities.

Do you really think you've got those proportions right? I think most would swap 'majority' and 'minority' in that sentence.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 2:44:55 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Just as 2+2=13 ain't so till you prove it.

If you fail to see the shortcomings of that comparison, I shan't bore you with the details.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

There are a number of us who take the position that we don't know and we don't think you know either so when you start making wild assertions we call bullshit and point out that your position is unjustified.

Unjustified positions are normative. I've never heard a position that wasn't unjustified in its ultimate reduction, and most are unjustified through and through. If you care to call bullshit on such an arbitrary basis, while also playing pick and choose with your sources, I shall have to reserve the right to write you off as yet another person with a rigid and closed belief system based on familiarity and prejudice.

Don't take that as an insult, though; this is the usual condition of humanity.

I was simply hoping to find cause for praise, is all.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 2:48:45 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Do you really think you've got those proportions right? I think most would swap 'majority' and 'minority' in that sentence.

You must live in a better place than I, then.

Around these parts, "atheism" is simply a licence to be more prejudiced, more fundamentalist and more aggressive than any other group of believers (in this case, belief in nonexistence; as I said, that's the majority fraction of those that label themselves thus here).

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 3:00:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
If you're honest, you'll no doubt recognize that there's a substantial difference between the minority with no belief and the majority with a belief in the nonexistence of deities.

If you're honest, you'll show me statistics to back up your assertion as to the minority/majority of these positions or apologize for handing us that turd.

Frankly I have no idea which of those positions is more dominant among atheists, I've seen no numbers on the subject and would really love to. All I can say is that among the atheists I know the majority group is the opposite of what you're claiming.

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 3:00:59 PM

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(response to PeonForHer ... )

Indeed.

I think that the distinctions Aswad has made are useful, most people don't think that far into it.

But I have always considered the most 'basic' atheism as taking the position that what theists assert or proclaim is not and has not been proved to the former's satisfaction. By general logic, I cannot call that a 'belief system' or 'belief.' There are those who proclaim that, as 'fact,' to their mind, God, 'spirit.' or whatever does not exist. Which I think is a bit silly, as that can be no more proved than the converse. In any case certainly a belief, since it cannot be proved.

I also think it is the heighth of silliness for 'fact assertion' atheists to demand physical proof for something inarguably non-physical in essence. "Proof" in the way we consider it is either a logical, mathematical, or physical manifestation or demonstration of some recognizable and generally agreed upon construct of the mind.

As an agnostic (the basic "I have awareness of spirit, and have no clue whatsoever on the matter beyond that"), the 'fact' that something 'spiritual' in nature cannot be proved troubles me not in the least, as it seems to trouble many self-proclaimed atheists, because it is in fact appropriate to the logical mind that such should be the case.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/7/2012 3:09:24 PM >

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 3:02:23 PM

kdsub

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quote:

Around these parts, "atheism" is simply a licence to be more prejudiced, more fundamentalist and more aggressive than any other group of believers

I have yet to read a direct attack on a so called atheist by someone of faith for that persons lack of it. But in most every thread on religion there are direct attacks on faith by atheists. So I do believe you right in the above statement.

I really don't believe many atheists realize how hurtful those attacks are...at least I hope that is the case.

Butch

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RE: Now God intended rape to happen. - 11/7/2012 3:44:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Around these parts, "atheism" is simply a licence to be more prejudiced, more fundamentalist and more aggressive than any other group of believers (in this case, belief in nonexistence; as I said, that's the majority fraction of those that label themselves thus here).

Wow. I can't say that I've noticed an abundance of that - but, then, I don't have any sensitivities of a religious kind.

Perhaps this 'harshness' (want of a better word) from atheists here goes hand-in-hand with (what I see as) the harsh flavour of American religiousness in particular. In Britain, religion is, I think, something of a more taboo subject: the general feeling of 'so long as you don't ram it down my throat I'm fine with you' prevails. People want to avoid stepping on each others corns. (And I certainly don't, either.) Politics and religion aren't intermarried to anywhere near the same extent; when they are, the results aren't usually such stridently authoritarian policy proposals.

Come to think of it, I recall being quite surprised when I first visited these forums even to see a forum headed 'Politics and Religion'. I'd never seen them put together in such a way before.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 11/7/2012 3:46:40 PM >

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