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A quandary - 11/4/2012 5:24:06 AM   
Hillwilliam


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http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/transgender-student-womens-locker-room-raises-uproar-221516308--abc-news-topstories.html

I know what the law says but c'mon, there are children being exposed.

I'd especially like to hear from the TG community please.

_____________________________

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RE: A quandary - 11/4/2012 6:50:52 AM   
clool


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Anyone, of any gender, who feels compelled to sit around exposing their genitals should keep the fuck away from children.

This individual's actions are just that, and should never be applied to the general case of transpeople wanting to use the correct bathroom/changing room. Public bathrooms are one of the most horrifying parts of being trans (at least as a trans-woman) because men* make such a disgusting mess of every single one.

*not all of them, I know. But enough.

If it was a cismale, it'd be criminal. A cisfemale, unremarkable. A transfemale, sadly most people will automatically assume that she is a pervert. And she might be, but most trans people are not.

In my humble opinion the obvious answer is to have small, private cubicles for people to change in. I know I would have appreciated it when I was in school, and I doubt dividing walls / curtains are really a significant expense.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: A quandary - 11/4/2012 6:28:13 PM   
theRose4U


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This was on a thread last week...something with locker room in title.

Opinion is this person was waaaaay over the line for bad behavior. TG is all well & good until a parent has to explain to a 6year old why someone with a naked penis is in the girls shower. Frankly angry sex offender laws weren't applied out of fear of lawsuit. I'm sorry TG or not a swinging naked penis in front of children is & should be illegal.

This is non consentually forcing your kink on minors...not ok

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to clool)
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RE: A quandary - 11/4/2012 8:16:16 PM   
Nakhla


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Trying to see the side of the person involved, if you are a biological male who is going to be naked and dressing as a female, and given that privacy is not an option, you are less likely to be harassed by women than by men. Transwomen face a LOT of often violent, physical harassment from men that they simply don't get - or very rarely get, at least - from women. So, given that she was going to face being naked and changing into women's clothing in front of one gender, she chose the safest one.

Gender identity goes a lot further than a kink, and sex change surgery is extremely expensive for those who need to fund it themselves. Not all are able to.

While it may not have been appropriate, I also doubt that children are wondering around in a daze of trauma from watching someone get dressed. Get some stalls and get some privacy, and the problem is fixed for everyone.

(in reply to theRose4U)
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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 5:00:42 AM   
MariaB


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I find myself siding with the TV providing she is fully intent on having her bits removed and that this is part of the 'expected' transition.
I know a few fully transgendered females and as far as I'm concerned they are females. I have a dear friend who's daughter is now her son but has not yet gone through the full op. I, like everyone else who knows him, thinks of him as a boy.
The problem here is, there is huge discontent amongst the women and if someone has to make up shit (which I bet it is) to stop this TV from continuing to use the locker rooms, then they will. TV's are usually hugely private about their male bits. They really don't want other people to see them as male in any way or form. If she really did sit in a sauna showing her genitals then I would suspect something ominous afoot.
We live in France where nearly all changing rooms and even toilets are communal. No woman bats an eyelid at a man taking a piss in a urinal. In fact my husband was taking a piss this summer when this French woman moved round to the side of the urinal so she could get his attention to ask him directions. Men and women get changed in the same space and nobody seems to be bothered.
I suppose its how you have been brought up. I was brought up in the UK where we are incredibly prudish about sharing changing facilities with men but happily walk around naked in front of other women in a changing room. It sounds like Americans are even more prudish than the UK.
Would it bother me that my six year old daughter saw a woman with male bits in a woman's changing room? Not at all and if she asked me about it, I would use that opportunity to explain.

(in reply to Nakhla)
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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 8:05:13 AM   
mrbadexample357


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This one's a dilly.

I regard my self as a libertarian until it comes to children & then this uber conservative side comes out.

Although I respect the rights ofr the transgender community to live as they choose I also reserve the right to explain their place in the world (to the best of my limited ability) when my child is ready for the explanation.

Not only do I not want the confusion in his head but I also am fighting a loosing battle to retain that childhood innocence on a daily basis.

That is something I cherish above most things in this cynical world


< Message edited by mrbadexample357 -- 11/5/2012 8:07:21 AM >

(in reply to MariaB)
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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 8:08:11 AM   
theRose4U


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Explaining to kids in my mind should be as age appropriate. explaining why miss suzie used to be called billy is for early teens. Any little girl with brothers gets the idea something is different early on but hanging whang in a sauna is not only unsanitary but with children around illegal for a reason!!
I sauna in a co-ed area both sexes either sauna in swim suits, towels or robes. Kids aren't allowed in that area ever. While I have heard of people meeting up for sauna sex in that area, again inappropriate cover your naughty bits & get a room!

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to MariaB)
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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 8:48:31 AM   
Aswad


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Nice to see the US heading in a sensible direction.

The privacy screen takes care of any concerns.

What's with the body phobia anyway?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 8:50:57 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

TG is all well & good until a parent has to explain to a 6year old why someone with a naked penis is in the girls shower.


Reality is all well and good until parents have to explain to their kids how reality works?

quote:

I'm sorry TG or not a swinging naked penis in front of children is & should be illegal.


That's illegal over there? Sheesh. Talk about prudes.

quote:

This is non consentually forcing your kink on minors...not ok


How is TG a kink in any way?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to theRose4U)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 9:12:51 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

We live in France where nearly all changing rooms and even toilets are communal. No woman bats an eyelid at a man taking a piss in a urinal. In fact my husband was taking a piss this summer when this French woman moved round to the side of the urinal so she could get his attention to ask him directions. Men and women get changed in the same space and nobody seems to be bothered.


It is similar in Norway. Most places have seperate toilets because a lot of men aren't as hygienic as they should be, but a lot of places are unisex, and the women aren't going to complain if you go to their stalls. Just shrug and say the men's room was dirty with a quick rolleyes and they'll nod understandingly. We're not quite as far along as France yet, but it's not like anyone is going to make a big deal about their kids seeing some genitals.

Heck, walking naked through a public area will most likely result in the police handing you a robe and driving you home with no fine, unless you've been actively flashing people in a manner that obviously has sexual intent (in which case you will get a fine, about the same as forgetting to flash the turn lights at an intersection).

quote:

It sounds like Americans are even more prudish than the UK.


Yeah, here in Norway it's not uncommon to have American tourists outraged that public parks may have statues of naked people of both genders and all ages. Once, there was even a petition to have one of the art parks cover up their displays, but it was obviously ignored, save to amuse people with a piece about it in the news. Seeing as this site is hosted in the US, it would probably be a bad idea to link to an image directly, but for an example of a statue in the Vigeland national art park, one can google "Sinnataggen" on Google Images. It was subjected to some vandalism during the riots in Denmark, but apart from that it's just part of the scenery.

quote:

Would it bother me that my six year old daughter saw a woman with male bits in a woman's changing room? Not at all and if she asked me about it, I would use that opportunity to explain.


Exactly. It's an opportunity to cover a topic that otherwise might not come up naturally. Yet another piece of information about the world that one can equip the kids with, so that they'll be better prepared to deal with reality and will have fewer needless prejudices. It's adults that make a fuss about these things, not kids (except when said kids have been traumatized by their parents).

It was considered going too far when my school teacher used her own body to illustrate female genitals during sex ed class back in high school, which is fair enough, but I get the impression that doing so in the USA might result in charges being levelled, which would just be absurd. It's not like there's anything inherently sexual about the body, or anything wrong about sexuality in itself. Wrong would be leaving the kids naïve about things they have to deal with in life.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MariaB)
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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 9:13:03 AM   
MariaB


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Do you have naturists in America? If so, do the same rules apply?

As far as a child being kept in an innocent world, I agree but I would argue that its the child's innocence that wouldn't pose a problem if she were to see a naked man. I mean, no doubt she has seen her father and her brothers naked. Nakedness for a six year old isn't an obscenity.
How many times have I seen little girls being taken into the mens toilets by their dad or granddad. This really is about conflicting morals isn't it?

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 9:14:12 AM   
Ninebelowzero


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That was my point Maria.

_____________________________

More come backs than Frank Sinatra

(in reply to MariaB)
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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 9:36:03 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

Any little girl with brothers gets the idea something is different early on but hanging whang in a sauna is not only unsanitary but with children around illegal for a reason!!


What reason is that?

It's not illegal around these parts, and I can't say as we're suffering any negative consequences of that.

We never wore anything in the sauna back when I was at school, incidentally, and as far as I know, Germany and Finland have mixed saunas (unisex; co-ed).

quote:

I sauna in a co-ed area both sexes either sauna in swim suits, towels or robes.


Why would you cover yourself in the sauna unless it's that time of the month?

That just impedes your sweating, which is part of what a sauna is for, and traps crap on your skin.

quote:

Kids aren't allowed in that area ever.


Why on Earth not?

Kids benefit from relaxing in a sauna, too, so long as there is adult supervision to make sure they don't overheat.

quote:

While I have heard of people meeting up for sauna sex in that area, again inappropriate cover your naughty bits & get a room!


How is that any different from sex in any other public place?

Sex in public is generally frowned upon where I live, and usually results in being told to leave by the police if someone is offended, in some cases also resulting in a fine. A sauna would be slightly less public, certainly, and might be less likely to result in a fine, but it is pretty much a given that anyone that's offended is going to tell you to take it elsewhere.

It would be rude not to consider the sensibilities of others, anyway, which is what sex in public comes down to: rudeness.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to theRose4U)
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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 9:46:01 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbadexample357

Not only do I not want the confusion in his head but I also am fighting a loosing battle to retain that childhood innocence on a daily basis.


1. What confusion? The confusion is in parents' heads, generally, not the heads of the children. This reminds me of the people that object to same-sex couples adopting, claiming it would be confusing to them, while the kids themselves are like "Alice's daddies are real cool, and Bob's second mommy is teaching me to swim." Vaguely reminds me of that girl with poly parents and a sign saying "I love all my moms". The confusion is all ours. Kids just pick up what the world is like, and then we complicate things for them with labels and norms.

2. Why would you want to stunt their maturation? Innocence is the absence of maturity, and it's your job as a parent to help them shed it in a safe and healthy manner so as to prepare them for the world. You sound like you're advocating holding them back so they'll become less than they can be, leaving them less prepared and less capable. I can see the appeal, but it's an entirely selfish one. Parents enjoy having kids be innocent, but you can't be a rosebud forever and blooming into a healthy, well adjusted adult is more beautiful than any amount of innocence ever can be. That's what kids are: adults in the making. Childhood isn't their life, it's preparation for life.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to mrbadexample357)
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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 10:46:47 AM   
MariaB


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I'm very much with what Aswad has said in these posts.
I understand why Nine wants to retain his sons innocence for as long as he can because innocence in itself is a beautiful thing but I agree with Aswad that you can't and shouldn't hold back what is ready to blossom and neither should you push a child to blossom before they are ready.
Here in France it has been proven that girls are a year behind their English cousins when it comes to puberty. My French friends teenage daughters seem more interested in playing tennis or going ice skating with their friends than they do in boys, fashion and makeup.
French society is very different than American society. In France you would expect to find a woman openly breast feeding her baby in a restaurant or in the park. In France you wouldn't worry if the man next to you on the beach has stripped right off, turned to the sun and dried his naked body and in France it doesn't matter if the gents toilets are busy because a man is happy to use the ladies. French children don't grow up emotionally scarred by what is considered normal here.

On a side note, my son was brought up in London and saw plenty of TV's from an early age. He once said in an overly loud voice, 'why is that man dressed as a lady?' and my answer was, 'because it makes him happy and we all have a right to be happy don't you think?' He was happy with that answer and never asked again.

< Message edited by MariaB -- 11/5/2012 10:48:50 AM >

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 11:16:54 AM   
mons


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I was 12 years old and we had this guy who would
hang windows and play with himself no matter who was
around!

It frighten me to death, I though I had lose my mind 'he was
with his friends and it was about six guys older in the years 20's!

They acted as if they did not see him playing with his penis!

This terrified me I had not seen anything like this!

This is why I wrote the above story to show you it can frighten a child badly it is almost like he is
enjoy the problems and making other feel they have to put up with this actions!!!!!!

Now this is something that many who think this is okay they are dead wrong!

They have a right to be whom they are but young children no way it is illegal to show
your penis to a child and the 17 teen year has the right to be upset for seeing this! Not ever teen is expsoe to
this type of nude scenes!

I think do not shove your kink or lifestyle down someone thoart it is not right!

Children are scar with things like this!

Why does this person need to use the female bathroom when he has his parts still there???

I have nothing against Transgender people, but young children and teens SHOULD NOT BE SEEING HIS PENIS AT ALL!

It is wrong I woiuld not take my child if they were this age to this place again if they did not make major changes to
his using the women;s an children swim bathing area!!

Best regards

Mons

(in reply to MariaB)
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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 11:18:35 AM   
Ninebelowzero


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Hats off to you for picking the quote to distort my point Nice one.

& thank you for telling ME how to raise MY child.

For the record I will decide when he is ready for specific information to be passed rather than society as much as I possibly can.

We have crossed the gay thing quite easily now perhaps you would be so kinfd as to read my original post entirely where I stated that there is a dilemmea between being a libertarian until my kid is involved & then the conservative rears his ugly little head.  

Then you might understand my point

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbadexample357

Not only do I not want the confusion in his head but I also am fighting a loosing battle to retain that childhood innocence on a daily basis.


1. What confusion? The confusion is in parents' heads, generally, not the heads of the children. This reminds me of the people that object to same-sex couples adopting, claiming it would be confusing to them, while the kids themselves are like "Alice's daddies are real cool, and Bob's second mommy is teaching me to swim." Vaguely reminds me of that girl with poly parents and a sign saying "I love all my moms". The confusion is all ours. Kids just pick up what the world is like, and then we complicate things for them with labels and norms.

2. Why would you want to stunt their maturation? Innocence is the absence of maturity, and it's your job as a parent to help them shed it in a safe and healthy manner so as to prepare them for the world. You sound like you're advocating holding them back so they'll become less than they can be, leaving them less prepared and less capable. I can see the appeal, but it's an entirely selfish one. Parents enjoy having kids be innocent, but you can't be a rosebud forever and blooming into a healthy, well adjusted adult is more beautiful than any amount of innocence ever can be. That's what kids are: adults in the making. Childhood isn't their life, it's preparation for life.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

More come backs than Frank Sinatra

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 11:21:44 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

In France you would expect to find a woman openly breast feeding her baby in a restaurant or in the park.


Isn't this normal in the USA, too?

I object to people changing diapers in a restaurant if they don't take it to the restrooms, but I don't see why one would object to people breastfeeding in public. Sometimes, people will eat a salami sandwich in public, and some don't like the smell of salami, but it would be pretty crazy to ban salami on that grounds alone. If something bothers someone, what's the problem with simply asking politely if the offending party would care to take it elsewhere? (I do have a problem with mothers getting upset at a polite inquiry, though. A simple "No, sorry, I'm staying." should suffice.)

quote:

French children don't grow up emotionally scarred by what is considered normal here.


This, to me, is the gold standard question.

If a practice doesn't scar people in a culture where it's normative, and outcomes aren't better in a culture where it's not, then the practice is not harmful in itself and any trauma associated with the practice in cultures that have taboos about it is trauma inflicted by the culture. I figure it's pretty nasty to go traumatizing kids about something as natural as the human body, yet that seems perfectly acceptable to lots of people in the USA. No wonder they've got so much sex crime.

The Internet is very nice in this regard, as it allows people to compare notes on things they take for granted, and learn what works and what doesn't in other cultures than their own. It's one of the reasons I bother to write a fair bit about my own country, and to pay close attention to what others say about theirs. For me, the Internet is an opportunity to learn the things one might not think to write down in books otherwise, and a way to level the playing field and bring information to the people directly. In many ways, it's as big a revolution as general literacy (I think we could agree that ≥90% basic literacy and ≥50% advanced literacy are requirements of civilization in any meaningful sense).

It's been interesting to see the impact that's had in Norway. I can remember, as a young child, being with my mom and dad as they stood in line at the telegraph office to apply for a landline. Or, as an older child, my dad getting one of the first cell phones in our county. Or, as a teenager, getting my first GSM cell phone. Now, I have 100Mbps fiber Internet and so does my maid, despite both of us living in a rural community of a few thousand people on an island as far west in Norway as you can possibly get (the North Sea is a quarter mile from my door). Teenagers put their phone on silent to avoid having anyone see that they couldn't afford to pick up the most recent iPhone between paydays. Many schools use eBooks exclusively, and do live updates on the content when erratae are written.

quote:

On a side note, my son was brought up in London and saw plenty of TV's from an early age. He once said in an overly loud voice, 'why is that man dressed as a lady?' and my answer was, 'because it makes him happy and we all have a right to be happy don't you think?' He was happy with that answer and never asked again.


This is worth repeating, and makes your post very valuable. For parents that aren't comfortable answering such questions, or who don't have an answer handy if their kid asks, it is no doubt incredibly helpful to have a "known good" answer to use if they should encounter the question themselves; to know that someone else has said it and that the kids accept it without any difficulties can be reassuring and thus help parents to raise more open-minded kids.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 11:24:59 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mons

Children are scar with things like this!


Actually, no.

Children are scarred by people like you freaking about things like this.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to mons)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 11:31:31 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

Hats off to you for picking the quote to distort my point Nice one.


I picked the quote to provide context. I answered to the whole post.

quote:

thank you for telling ME how to raise MY child.


I didn't tell you anything. I gave you advice that you're free to disregard.

There was no malice in my suggestion, only good intentions.

quote:

For the record I will decide when he is ready for specific information to be passed rather than society as much as I possibly can.


And I will fight for your right to raise your child any way you like.

Don't ask me to also share your preferences, opinions and choices on this point; I'm not asking you to share mine.

quote:

We have crossed the gay thing quite easily now perhaps you would be so kinfd as to read my original post entirely where I stated that there is a dilemmea between being a libertarian until my kid is involved & then the conservative rears his ugly little head.


Perhaps I misread you. Would you please clarify for me?

The way I interpreted what you wrote, was to the effect that you're libertarian on most issues, but that you're conservative on these issues. If I was mistaken on this point, then I sincerely apologize for misunderstanding.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Ninebelowzero)
Profile   Post #: 20
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