A or B, not yes or no. (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 8:03:54 PM)

On another thread, Tazzy brought up a quote from good old Saul Alinsky that I thought was worth a look, and some comment.

A People's Organization is dedicated to an eternal war. It is a war against poverty, misery, delinquency, disease, injustice, hopelessness, despair, and unhappiness. They are basically the same issues for which nations have gone to war in almost every generation. . . . War is not an intellectual debate, and in the war against social evils there are no rules of fair play

The snip is from his 1946 book, Reveille for Radicals, and it's interesting because the libs of today would love to pretend that they hold exclusive interest in resolving these eternal ills. They would have us believe that the solutions they are offer are the only solutions, and that to reject their methods is to maliciously wish the problems continue.

I'm of the opinion that one big reason the Democrats squeaked through this election was by successfully defining and demonizing the opposition with just that slur.

That box which Dems want to force Repubs into, must be dealt with. It's time to call "bullshit," on the ploy.

Democrats love poverty. They love misery, and delinquency, and hopelessness, despair and unhappiness. It's how they recruit. Happy optimists with a few bucks in their pocket, vote Republican.

We now have a nice long record, a multi-generational record, of what happens when Democrats/liberals try their hand, at dealing with poverty. It has turned the traditional family into a rarity in our inner cities. It has given us taxpayer funded "mentors" for the poor, who cannot show their clients how to cover a hole in a window with a bit of cardboard, and who give them little plaques for not deserting their children, or getting themselves sent to prison. It has given us program rules that hold people right where they are in poverty, and deny aid to fixed income seniors who went into retirement with a little bit set aside. It has given us the thought process of the Obama phone lady, and a sub-culture that thinks a job is something you are given, instead of something you go out and get. It has given us 47 million Americans on food stamps, and radio advertising to go sign up. This is the Democrats idea of fighting poverty, and it has given us more poor people than ever before, whose leading health problem is obesity.

What is the conservative approach to poverty? You can look back to the quote above, and see what, "A People's Organization" is NOT committed to fighting for. Individual liberty. Self-determination. Economic freedom. These are the tools we address poverty with. Unlike the thoughts of our President, who denigrates the values of hard work and being smart, a conservative will believe that these are the core essentials to leaving poverty behind.

A conservative believes the way to assist people in leaving that miserable condition is with opportunity, and the freedom to pursue it. A conservative believes that if the government is going to deliberately create jobs to prime the pump of opportunity, then we should get something real and tangible for our money. Even FDR, the man who gave us the New Deal, understood this. The art is still there, in the old post offices, the stone guardrails still line many a scenic road. The Reagan military build-up ended the Soviet Union, after it got GM and Ford back to production.

The position is not, and has never been if conservatives care about people in poverty, it's what do we think is best to do about it.

What do Republicans need to do in the aftermath of this election? They need to stop allowing the Democrats to be the ones who define what conservatives values are.




Kirata -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 8:22:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

A People's Organization is dedicated to an eternal war. It is a war against poverty, misery, delinquency, disease, injustice, hopelessness, despair, and unhappiness. They are basically the same issues for which nations have gone to war in almost every generation. . . . War is not an intellectual debate, and in the war against social evils there are no rules of fair play

Anybody who preaches throwing away one's sense of fair play has nobody's good in mind.

K.




dcnovice -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 8:32:21 PM)

quote:

the Democrats squeaked through this election

"Squeaked through" is an interesting description for an election with a three-million margin in the popular vote and a difference of 126 in the electoral vote. Indeed, a vote of that magnitude was viewed quite a bit differently when Romney was the expected winner:

[image]http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/311112_302290976552875_1691602703_n.jpg[/image]












slvemike4u -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 8:36:37 PM)

"What do Republicans need to do in the aftermath of this election?"
What they should not do is to buy into any of that bullshit you just put forth.
You really aren't that much different than that guy from idaho,are you?
You just dress it up nicer,present it in a thoughtful manner and tie a ribbon around it.....but in the box is the same bullshit fear mongering he sold.
Democrats aren't the issue,and they didn't just squeak thru this election .Conservatism just took a bloody beating up and down the ticket.The only factor allowing the Republican party to hold on to the House was gerrymandering
Republicans are all but irrelevant in your own state.Squeak by my ass,Maddow was right...it was a "shellacking,and should enough Republicans adopt your line of thinking there will be plenty more to come.
Keep burying your head in the sand,when one thinks of where else you could put it I,one comes to the conclusion that things could be worse...but not by much . .




slvemike4u -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 8:37:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

the Democrats squeaked through this election

"Squeaked through" is an interesting description for an election with a three-million margin in the popular vote and a difference of 126 in the electoral vote. Indeed, a vote of that magnitude was viewed quite a bit differently when Romney was the expected winner:

[image]http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/311112_302290976552875_1691602703_n.jpg[/image]










"squeak" is such a relative term......lol.




dcnovice -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 8:46:23 PM)

quote:

Democrats love poverty. They love misery, and delinquency, and hopelessness, despair and unhappiness. It's how they recruit.

Oh my.


quote:

We now have a nice long record, a multi-generational record, of what happens when Democrats/liberals try their hand, at dealing with poverty.

We also have a long history, prior to the New Deal, of how folks fared under a conservative approach to poverty. Jacob Riis told their stories far more powerfully than I ever could:

[Pictures removed because they included minors]

[image]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mlPoGU4VqSk/SL1TYQUX0DI/AAAAAAAADLo/W2Ji7v7JrjM/s400/bleeker.jpg[/image]

There's a reason why Democrats and liberals tried their hand, however imperfectly, at addressing poverty.




tazzygirl -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 8:47:00 PM)

quote:

The snip is from his 1946 book, Reveille for Radicals, and it's interesting because the libs of today would love to pretend that they hold exclusive interest in resolving these eternal ills. They would have us believe that the solutions they are offer are the only solutions, and that to reject their methods is to maliciously wish the problems continue.


I disagree. I think anyone can work towards those goals.

quote:

Democrats love poverty. They love misery, and delinquency, and hopelessness, despair and unhappiness. It's how they recruit. Happy optimists with a few bucks in their pocket, vote Republican.


I was a Democrat even when I had more than a few bucks in my pocket and was very happy. Generalizing isnt going to win you points.

quote:

We now have a nice long record, a multi-generational record, of what happens when Democrats/liberals try their hand, at dealing with poverty. It has turned the traditional family into a rarity in our inner cities. It has given us taxpayer funded "mentors" for the poor, who cannot show their clients how to cover a hole in a window with a bit of cardboard, and who give them little plaques for not deserting their children, or getting themselves sent to prison.


Hahahaha.. because one couple didnt doesnt mean they all cant. Really, Rich, again with the generalizations. Come on.

quote:

It has given us the thought process of the Obama phone lady,


Still not proven

quote:

and a sub-culture that thinks a job is something you are given, instead of something you go out and get.


Again, broad brushes are hard to swallow, Rich.

quote:

It has given us 47 million Americans on food stamps


http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/presidential/FactCheck_Romneys_food_stamp_stretch.html

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jan/17/newt-gingrich/newt-gingrich-says-more-people-have-been-put-food-/

quote:

and radio advertising to go sign up.


President Bush launched a recruitment campaign, which pushed average participation up by 63% during his eight years in office. The USDA began airing paid radio spots in 2004.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/25/news/economy/food-stamps-ads/index.htm





Owner59 -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 8:53:02 PM)

What rich is doing is unwittingly admitting that bush`s 1st term.............. had even less credibility than Obama`s 2nd........considering Gore received MORE pop-votes, than shrub did......tho bush got more electoral votes.......


Cons.....ALWAYS trying to cheat it both ways.......[8|]




slvemike4u -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 8:54:35 PM)

Great response tazzy,so tell me again how I'm going to ask you to leave a room.....lo,not bloody likely.




dcnovice -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 8:56:11 PM)

FR

Measuring poverty in ages past is a tricky business, since government stats go back only to 1958 (I think). But I did find an interesting graph, based on the work of Robert Plotnick at the University of Washington. The blue line takes a fascinating nose-dive in the 1930s--precisely when the federal government, in the hands of Democrats and liberals, began making a serious effort to relieve poverty.


[image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PtwHnkWcnSE/TmajK-ZvT3I/AAAAAAAAAc4/tDolEmqVJrI/s1600/Plotnick+individuals+since+1920.jpg[/image]




slvemike4u -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 8:59:41 PM)

Imagine that....




dcnovice -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 9:05:33 PM)

quote:

Jacob Riis told their stories far more powerfully than I ever could.

So did countless other shooters as well, of course. This Dorothea Lange portrait of migrant workers in the 1930s is one of the most iconic American photo of all time.

[Picture removed because it included minors]




tazzygirl -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 9:05:38 PM)

Here is my question to you, Rich. When are you going to own up to the flaws within your own party? You are so eager to point out the Democratic flaws that you cant seem to see that the Republicans have made all the same "mistakes" you are now complaining about.




slvemike4u -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 9:11:12 PM)

Something has changed recently with Rich,or at least with his views,they are harder,less flexible and more stilted.....elections do indeed have consequences
Perhaps we are seeing one of them at play ?




TheHeretic -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 9:13:41 PM)

DC, I can drive two miles, and hit a neighborhood where immigrant families are packed just as tightly as in your pictures, and between here and there are two privately run food banks.

Read a little further, and you'll find me pointing out things FDR was doing right. Start from Johnson's war on poverty.




tazzygirl -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 9:15:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

DC, I can drive two miles, and hit a neighborhood where immigrant families are packed just as tightly as in your pictures, and between here and there are two privately run food banks.

Read a little further, and you'll find me pointing out things FDR was doing right. Start from Johnson's war on poverty.


I can do that here and its been that way since 2001.... you have a point behind that?




Hillwilliam -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 9:19:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

A conservative believes the way to assist people in leaving that miserable condition is with opportunity, and the freedom to pursue it. A conservative believes that if the government is going to deliberately create jobs to prime the pump of opportunity, then we should get something real and tangible for our money.

So, when is the fucking Republican party going to stop being a bunch of ignorant Bible Beaters who are against people even knowing how to think for themselves and go back to being conservatives?




DarkSteven -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 9:19:43 PM)

Rich, I hear you. I honestly don't like entitlements. That said, I have a REAL problem with any platform that takes money away from the needy at the same time it's giving the wealthy more tax breaks.




TheHeretic -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 9:23:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I can do that here and its been that way since 2001.... you have a point behind that?



The point is right there in your comment too, Tazzy, and sprinkled throught your criticisms above.

Yes. It's the broad brush. That's been the only brush I've seen in use lately, and I'm perfectly happy to play by the rules in force.




dcnovice -> RE: A or B, not yes or no. (11/11/2012 9:23:45 PM)

quote:

Start from Johnson's war on poverty.


[image]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TJgxEwPv7RI/AAAAAAAAObs/AU8XbvZCSdo/s1600/poverty.jpg[/image]




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