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A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 6:05:48 AM

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Hi all,

What is everyone's take on being both forward and submissive?

I'm in the getting to know each other stage with a dom. He has told me various times that he likes a woman who knows what she wants, isn't afraid to ask for it, and has used the term "forward". We talked a bit about it, and I thought I understood his definition. Yesterday we were texting and I evidently went over the line and he wasn't pleased and said "not a good idea to tell a dom what to do". I didn't feel like I had (I thought I was answering a direct question), but we are talking about it, and figuring out where we stand on it.

Anyways, my question isn't so much about this specific incident, as it is how would this dynamic work in general. Does anyone have any experience or insight into it?

Thanks! littleone ~

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 7:02:48 AM

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How it works for me, or the clueless new guy you are talking to?

Telling someone something as vague,as "be forward" and then getting your panties in a bunch because she does so, is clueless. A skilled dom would have used that as a learning experience and thanked you for trying and then show you how to rephrase it to his liking. Rewarding/traing you to try and then training you how to please him and doing it in a,way that makes you all warm and goey.

(in reply to littleone14)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 7:17:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

How it works for me, or the clueless new guy you are talking to?

Telling someone something as vague,as "be forward" and then getting your panties in a bunch because she does so, is clueless. A skilled dom would have used that as a learning experience and thanked you for trying and then show you how to rephrase it to his liking. Rewarding/traing you to try and then training you how to please him and doing it in a,way that makes you all warm and goey.

Good stuff right there.
But you know what, sometimes we say stuff and dont even realize how it sounds. Put it together with gestures and mannerisms, it can be a real eye opener. My nephew once taped my sister and I in a conversation unknowingly and played it back. I thought "hey thats not me!" but it was. I thought I was just merely stating an opinion, but when that tape was played back, it looked and sounded like I was giving orders.

_____________________________

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 8:26:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

How it works for me, or the clueless new guy you are talking to?

Telling someone something as vague,as "be forward" and then getting your panties in a bunch because she does so, is clueless. A skilled dom would have used that as a learning experience and thanked you for trying and then show you how to rephrase it to his liking. Rewarding/traing you to try and then training you how to please him and doing it in a,way that makes you all warm and goey.

Good stuff right there.
But you know what, sometimes we say stuff and dont even realize how it sounds. Put it together with gestures and mannerisms, it can be a real eye opener. My nephew once taped my sister and I in a conversation unknowingly and played it back. I thought "hey thats not me!" but it was. I thought I was just merely stating an opinion, but when that tape was played back, it looked and sounded like I was giving orders.

I quoted both of these because both of these were exceptionally good advice.
I've also been subject to the recording thing, in addition to standing around mirrors during conversation to practice awareness of my body language.

But, interestingly, you may be having the opposite problem in not having more avenues for expression.
Texting, just like speaking over the internet, can often be more challenging due to the lack of tonality and body language involved.
It's the strongest social argument for smilies - Sometimes a sentence needs an expression to carry the proper message.

But even if this were the case, as Michael said, it should have been used as a directed learning experience.

The advice I would offer would be to just pay extra attention to any subject matter that is sensitive or any communication method that is limited.
Be aware of your feelings at all times.
And make sure that forward is really what he wants.
Some people like forward as long as you're being forward with things they want to hear.
And not so much when you are forward with things they don't agree with.

(in reply to chatterbox24)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 8:35:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleone14

Anyways, my question isn't so much about this specific incident, as it is how would this dynamic work in general. Does anyone have any experience or insight into it?

Thanks! littleone ~

Have you met this person face to face? If not, my comment would be that there isn't a dynamic yet.

If you have met face to face and have agreed to have a dynamic, then I would say Michael is spot on.

_____________________________

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to littleone14)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 8:48:15 AM

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I agree.

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RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 11:21:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
How it works for me, or the clueless new guy you are talking to? Telling someone something as vague,as "be forward" and then getting your panties in a bunch because she does so, is clueless.

That. Although I might also suggest a different interpretation of clueless. It might also be the lost in fantasy dom. One way or the other though this guy's thinking is not firmly connected with reality. If you are also talking about a fantasy role then that's all fine. If you're not then you got a guy trying to navigate real life with a cartoon map.

edited to add
How it works for me is that I think Carol is a trustworthy and honorable individual. I also think she's very strongly submissive. So if I tell her to do something it's a pretty safe bet that she's going to be trying to fulfill whatever the command was. If that doesn't happen then it's almost certainly a communication problem, a reality problem (reality being more dominant than me) or some internal conflict. All three of those choices fall squarely in my lap for resolution.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 11/16/2012 12:25:06 PM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 1:48:14 PM

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From: Centralia, Washington
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The game is called , 'Whipsaw'.

"Tell me what to do / DON'T tell me what to do"

No matter what you do you are wrong, and get yanked the other way just long enough to be wrong again and back and forth and back and forth just like a whipsaw with two burly men working their pea-picking little hearts out.

quote:

This is Me talking.
I've been playing this game since 1962. I know how to win. I am about to tell you how to win the "You cannot win!!" Game.

Don't Play.

This fellow you speak of is playing. He is either doing it on purpose, for the fun, or because it is what he has been taught by dear old Dad and he simply hasn't thought about it. In either case you can expect more of the same.

Good luck.

_____________________________

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(in reply to JeffBC)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 1:51:11 PM

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I question anyone that discusses dynamics in text. lol

I will discuss things with my potential or partner and if I think they are pushing or not going down the right path, I will direct it. I don't pull that... I am the domly one, how dare you tell me what to do! ROFL! That isn't a dom. That is a punk ass taking a cheap shot because he doesn't have the wherewithal to direct and lead. It is so convenient to cover a lack by pointing at someone else.

Now, jokingly I have said, it is not good to tell a dom what to do and we end up laughing with the banter back and forth. If there wasn't any laughter back and forth, I would consider this is a guy that doesn't have enough clue to be where he has placed himself and I would be down the road.

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(in reply to JeffBC)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 2:18:07 PM

Kana

Posts: 6674
Joined: 10/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleone14

Hi all,

What is everyone's take on being both forward and submissive?

I'm in the getting to know each other stage with a dom. He has told me various times that he likes a woman who knows what she wants, isn't afraid to ask for it, and has used the term "forward". We talked a bit about it, and I thought I understood his definition. Yesterday we were texting and I evidently went over the line and he wasn't pleased and said "not a good idea to tell a dom what to do". I didn't feel like I had (I thought I was answering a direct question), but we are talking about it, and figuring out where we stand on it.

Anyways, my question isn't so much about this specific incident, as it is how would this dynamic work in general. Does anyone have any experience or insight into it?

Thanks! littleone ~

I dunno. I like a gal with some sass and spunk, but I have lines too, and I don't like it when they get crossed. This is one of those things that just takes time, getting to know each other, how he reacts and where those lines are.
I think that he called you on it right away (As opposed to flipping out ir getting all childish) to e a good thing.
Now the others might be on point, but it's worth considering the alternative.
My gal gets playful, and I let her tease and give her some slack, but she knows when she's getting close to crossing a line because I let her know, with a word, or more often just a look, maybe cock and eyebrow at her and she pulls back quick.
And that's all good, just part of our dynamic.

As for forward, hmmmm, might wanna be careful getting to far forward. Those headboards hurt ya know, leave quite the dent in a gals forehead

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to littleone14)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 2:31:34 PM

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I tell them right up front that, until I have agreed to being their sub, we are on equal footing. Conversations are not "Dom to sub" they are two people getting to know each other. Granted, sometimes, chatting by email/IM "tone" can get misconstrued so I will give him the benefit of the doubt and just say that it wasn't meant that way (but I would use it when weighing your decision)

(in reply to Kana)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 3:28:22 PM

MAINEiacMISTRESS

Posts: 1180
Joined: 9/12/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleone14

Hi all,

What is everyone's take on being both forward and submissive?

I'm in the getting to know each other stage with a dom. He has told me various times that he likes a woman who knows what she wants, isn't afraid to ask for it, and has used the term "forward". We talked a bit about it, and I thought I understood his definition. Yesterday we were texting and I evidently went over the line and he wasn't pleased and said "not a good idea to tell a dom what to do". I didn't feel like I had (I thought I was answering a direct question), but we are talking about it, and figuring out where we stand on it.

Anyways, my question isn't so much about this specific incident, as it is how would this dynamic work in general. Does anyone have any experience or insight into it?

Thanks! littleone ~

I wish you had actually stated WHAT it was you had said. Really we can't make a TRUE judgement about him without knowing. Your spin on it makes him sound overreactive. He doesn't know for SURE you are a submissive yet, and it's possible you may have actually sounded to him like you were Topping from the bottom, or you may have hit on a personal boundary, and he was simply giving you firm caution before you made it a habit. Your description of his preferences in women sounds like he is interested in forming a D/s partnership, not being the "slaves don't have rights" type. So I suggest continuing to talk with him. Keep in mind with a D/s relationship, while you start off at equal status, eventually as your relationship developes into actual D/s and you begin to feel safe, you will begin to want to surrender to his guidance. Hopefully he will be worthy of that.

I Myself prefer My subbies to be open with what they are feeling, to give Me feedback as we move along so I know our interactions are on the right path and we learn to understand each other. However, I've had a few who took that and "ran" with it, overstepping some of MY boundaries (here's an example: TELLING ME I they want Me to wear skimpy clothes, or TELL ME I am going to meet them on some such day of THEIR choosing, or buzz Me for chat when I've told them "I'M BUSY AT THE MOMENT", some similar BS). In that case, YES, I am damn well going to tell them, "It's a bad idea to tell a Dominant what to do."

Anyway, good luck. I hope things get resolved.

(in reply to littleone14)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 4:22:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS
I wish you had actually stated WHAT it was you had said. Really we can't make a TRUE judgement about him without knowing.

I agree with this sentiment and feel duly chastised.

That being said, even as I think now with new eyes I'm wondering if it really matters? The bottom line is that the follower is left in confusion about what the leader wants... enough so that she comes to random strangers to seek insight. "It's not a good idea to tell a dominant what to do" is not a clarifying statement. Rather, it makes some vague assertion about possible negative consequences to an unspecified act.

Me: I want you to get dolled up. We're going to a burlesque show tonight.
Her: You can go if you want. I'm tired after working.

At that point I could say something like what this girl's dom said. Or, I could be more specific and say something like, "I appreciate you letting me know that you are tired. But you rather assertively declared what you were and were not going to do. Who do you think you belong to? Yourself or me?"

At which point she could've said something like, "Ahhhhh... how would you like me to phrase such information in the future?"

And from there goodness happens.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to MAINEiacMISTRESS)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 4:50:41 PM

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So during a deep text conversation talking about dynamics with someone you are not involved with passed the getting to know you stage, a guy needs to say... don't tell a dom what to do, after he has set the stage for her to speak up for herself and from a place of knowing what she wants? And we shouldn't judge that? I am taking the story as told, whether there is another side to it or not. Going by the facts shared, whether they be fact or not, I can comment on that. The bottom line is he let her feel free to speak and share what she wanted and he has no claim on her or how she does that at this stage and then asked her a direct question and she what? Went too far in answering it?

How ever far she went and whether she crosses a line or his line or not... that was yesterday and it is today and it isn't cleared up and she is coming here trying to put puzzle pieces together. That's a guy very invested.

Whatever happened to directing the conversation to a time out until they can talk and getting on that real quick? This early in the situation, I would say I'm not impressed with the information available. How many domly types pull the dom card? If someone were to pull that card out deserved or not, they really ought to make the time to sort it all out. Not doing so suggests he shouldn't have been talking dynamics when he didn't have the time to fully address whatever might come up or there may be bigger issues at hand. Besides the fact that it was in text.

< Message edited by Lockit -- 11/16/2012 4:58:20 PM >

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RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 8:01:51 PM

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Try turning it around. It's a nice way of showing how you perceived it, while letting him make a demonstration to back up his meaning.

"Ok. I wanted to let you know about <the topic - ie "how I feel about bondage", let's say>. I didn't want to seem disrespectful; how would you have preferred to have <the topic> brought up?"

The wording can be whatever works for you, as long as it shows him how he sounded, puts across what you meant, and puts the ball back in his court to explain better what he wanted, why he reacted. It can set up some good honest communication. If he still gets pissy I'd drop it and ask yourself how important it was, and how you feel about the communication.

That conversation road doesn't stretch out in only one direction.

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.

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RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 8:34:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: theSwan

And make sure that forward is really what he wants.
Some people like forward as long as you're being forward with things they want to hear.
And not so much when you are forward with things they don't agree with.

QFT

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RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 9:18:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleone14

Hi all,

What is everyone's take on being both forward and submissive?

Anyways, my question isn't so much about this specific incident, as it is how would this dynamic work in general. Does anyone have any experience or insight into it?

I just wanted to comment on this portion. I am very outspoken, opinionated AND submissive. The dynamic in my relationship works because he likes that I am forward and outspoken yet very submissive to him and only him. As a previous poster said, I know where my boundaries lie and if he thinks I am going too far I get "the look".

I guess my point is that you do not have to change who you are just to be submissive. In the getting to know you phase, you are on equal ground and you need to remember that. If he is going to ask your opinion then get upset when it does not agree with his or get his panties wadded because you "told him what to do" then you need to take that into consideration when deciding where you want this relationship to go.

(in reply to littleone14)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/16/2012 9:47:02 PM

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I dont see being forward and submissive as mutually exclusive concepts. As a dominant female, Im secure enough in my dominance to not be threatened by a submissive being "forward" or speaking his/her mind on subjects. Especially if I ask them directly to give me their thoughts on the subject in the first place. Now keep in mind that this is purely one of those time and place type discussions. Right in the middle of a scene...not so much. But then again, thats what safewords are for if you have them established. But outside of those times, I want that dialogue with my submissive. In my relationships, I believe in fostering an open communication policy with my submissive. You cant ask someone to do something, then snap at them when they do exactly as you asked them.

In any sort of text based communications (including phone, IM, participating in forum discussions, or exchanging messages via CM), the vast majority of the nuances that contribute to conversation are lacking. All you see is text on a screen. As a general rule, I try to avoid having serious discussions like dynamic ones via text or email.

< Message edited by SeekingTrinity -- 11/16/2012 9:49:31 PM >

(in reply to littleone14)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/17/2012 3:06:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity
I dont see being forward and submissive as mutually exclusive concepts. As a dominant female, Im secure enough in my dominance to not be threatened by a submissive being "forward" or speaking his/her mind on subjects.

Actually one of my proudest achievements with Carol is how much more willing she is to be forward. She argues with me better as my slave than she ever did as my wife. I very definitely used her submissiveness to make her more "forward".

quote:

Especially if I ask them directly to give me their thoughts on the subject in the first place.

And that was one of the two things I pointed out to her. If I ask for a brain dump and don't get one that is full and complete to the extent of her knowledge at the moment then that constitutes direct disobedience which is the end of the dynamic and collar. That was my stick. My carrot was pointing out that I wasn't her husband anymore, I was her owner and master. She can't impose on me so she might as well stop worrying about it and just tell me what I want to know.

There is, however, a world of difference between being "forward" and being rude or disrespectful. As was pointed out earlier on the thread, without knowing the whole conversation it's kind of hard to get precise about our thoughts.\

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to SeekingTrinity)

RE: A "forward" sub...... - 11/17/2012 8:50:38 AM

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Since OP, you are just in the opening stages of getting to know this person, I don't think this is a case of being forward. The man asked you to be open and shot you down when you were. There is nothing rude or disrespectful that I can see unless you told him something like, "well you can shove that up your ass and see how it feels". That tends to go over badly in text. I think when you are starting to get to know someone before any intimacy you have the right to state what you have in mind. If someone gives the OK about that and suddenly changes the rules they are either playing a game (bad sub you will be punished), or they are inconsistant. Either way I would move along because their style would not mesh with mine.

< Message edited by Missokyst -- 11/17/2012 8:51:07 AM >

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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
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(in reply to JeffBC)

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