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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/24/2013 2:08:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
We should also keep in mind that commercial riggers, fire fighters, rescue teams and rock and ice climbers all use certified equipment which has been tested and deemed suitable for the job. Rope really is our life line!

Yeah, everybody else that's working with suspension is using ropes engineered to have a great safety factor and then making their systems as redundant as reasonably possible. Kinksters on the other hand are very commonly using ropes that will not hold a human being and combining them so that the system will hold if and only if everything goes right.

Suspending someone a few feet off the ground in an entirely controlled environment does not need to be risky. The talk about "risk" and "edge play" stems from all to common bad practices.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/24/2013 4:30:45 PM

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OMG, Maria! That just frightens the h*** out of me to hear things like that!!!

In my opinion, no matter how experienced a person is in something, no matter how many times they have participated, there's NEVER such a thing as too much care, concentration, and safety.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I don't think bondage riggers are going to be convinced until someone gets very seriously hurt or dies. People are taking bigger and bigger risks. I recently saw a group of pictures of a bondage model being suspended from a balcony. She was a good 15 ft in the air with her head facing downwards. There were two, what looked like, 8mm hemp ropes through the anchor which was a bina in a bolt that was in an overhanging beam. It wasn't even two ropes, it was doubled over which meant if one failed it all failed.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/25/2013 8:13:15 AM

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It would be nice to see alot of the ropes that are sold for bondage and suspension to have weight ratings on them. It could be done with a simple calibrated dynomometer and a weighted load, like fitness weights. We did something similar in one of my early rope rescue courses, but we were testing to see the amount of force that could be generated in a mechanical advantage system, and what type of force an achor system would hold using pickets driven into the ground and tied back on each other would hold. Do a whole bunch of break tests, and then what ever the low number is , is your low breaking point of the rope. Alot of the hardware you can buy has weight ratings. Just not certified for lifesafety is all. I tend to be lucky cause I have all of life safety rated stuff I can use. Also remember in the rescue field if you drop a piece of hardware from above waist height it is taken out of service. There is often damage that can not be seen with the naked eye. Take care of your equipment and it will take care of you. We also back our stuff up too, if you look at my picture, I am tied into a rope that rated for 10,000 lbs, and then there is a second rope of the same rating tied into me as well. This is because I was rigged to go down to a lower level, and pick someone off and bring them the rest of the way down. Again, not saying people need to go overboard, but know their equipment and rig accordingly so that you have a rather safe margin for error.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/25/2013 8:47:20 AM

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What can be said? It's obvious different materials should have been used.
But humanity has a poor track record when it comes erring on the side of caution in matters of sex and passion.

If you want things to be standardized take the proper steps and start a coalition of ethical rope suspenders. lol

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/25/2013 10:13:54 PM

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My opinion?

The rigger who set it up was an idiot. If you're gonna do something like that where you know someone could easily get hurt, then you do your homework. If you decide to ignore it because "hey it will look prettier", then you're a moron. But I also believe the model was just as much at fault. She should have asked about it all before she stepped into it. I believe in responsibility for all parties.

If people want to ignore obvious dangers then all I can say is I'm glad I never played with them.

Yeah, accidents happen but when you IGNORE obvious problems, it's no longer an accident.

ETA: Just read the Midori accident. I'm sorry but if someone said "I'm not very good with knots" and then starts to suspend someone while also making knots, I'd be like "OH Hell no! I want someone checking these knots before you hoist me up". And then wearing a mask that she can barely see? Yeah, I'd so not be playing with her, no matter who she/he is. This idea that because they are famous and that they must know what they are doing and can do no wrong, well....is beyond ludicrous.

Now, Master is not great with knots but he's not suspending me or doing things that will cause danger with them. He is smart enough to know his limits and what he can and can't do and not use it anyway if he doesn't know it before he learns it and is comfortable with it and knows it won't go wrong, short of accidents that happen to anyone.

Ok, one more thing is bothering me....she danced her off the stage to the back??? WTF?? The woman was flying through the air and then fell and she MOVED her??? To me that says unprofessional, uneducated and just plain dangerous. No 911? No ambulance? No keeping her on the floor and still to make sure she didn't have a broken spine, neck or fractured skull??

And this is why I don't like the whole bdsm "educators" and them being treated like the know all of bdsm. I've found that many really don't have a clue but like to say they do. I'm not saying all, I'm saying A LOT of them over the years that I've seen at parties, demos, munches, you name it.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 1/25/2013 10:30:31 PM >

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/26/2013 2:31:52 AM

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All good and valid points John. Not sure I would retire a piece of equipment because I dropped it from waist height, but I completely understand why you would do that in a commercial operation.

littlewonder, you bring up a few very good points here that should have us all thinking.
Whilst one can be an expert without being qualified and in this case there is no qualification, to genuinely be an expert you have to at least of done some original research and can show that you thoroughly understand your subject and not just spend you time parroting what other 'so called experts' have told you.
I agree, everyone needs to be knowledgeably informed. The models should not rely on the riggers reputation but do her own homework. The person being suspended needs to take as much responsibility when it comes to understanding risk.
Unless you are a solo climber, its good ethics to check each others knots, rope and equipment before you climb as well as show concerns to other climbers that are putting themselves in danger. There is a huge amount of support and knowledge amongst fellow climbers and although you may hear the odd bit of criticism, people are generally trying to be helpful rather than critical.
Its notable that there are some bondage riggers who have over inflated egos and certainly do not take healthy criticism on the chin. There are too many people who let their egos get in the way of learning

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/26/2013 7:55:33 PM

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I wouldn't the testing that's been done hasn't supported the whole fear of microfractures.

Here's what Black Diamond has to say on when to retire your dropped carabiners:
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/customer-service/faqs

That said it's understandable that professional operations in the fifth most litigious country are a touch paranoid.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/27/2013 2:17:19 AM

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If I didn't have to pay out of my own pocket every time I had to retire a bit of gear, I would happily retire it and add it to my own personal rack..... Send them to me John ;)
What happens when I take a big fall on a bit of gear? I inspect the gear but I certainly don't retire it unless its obviously past its best.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/27/2013 10:09:26 AM

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Just like you said GotSteel, for rescue work, there is already a liability issue and that is the main reason why they are so strict on equipment. Same thing on that rope should be retired after 10 years. For personal I would keep my rope well past that depending on use, and how it is during inspection. Personal gear and equipment is a different story, but I would alway watch to see how someone treats their equipment before letting them do a suspension. If they don't take care of their gear, I am not sure I would trust them with a suspension. I treat my personal gear the same as I treat my company gear, but that is just me. Not sure most kinky riggers have much of an actual rope experience besides tying people up. There might be some that are climbers and rescuers but I wouldn't think too many. Some are only good at making things look nice, but don't seem to have a good grasp on knots, or weight distribution. I have been luck Maria, and have yet to retire any of my equipment. I do cut lots of short rope up for guy to practice knot tying at work. But that rope isn't good for kink.

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/27/2013 2:25:34 PM

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We have different rope for different things. We have twin rope for ice climbing as well as a couple of 70 and 80 mtr dynamic as well as 10ml static.
We recently retired a rope that wasn't much more than a year old but we had done some radical climbing on this rope and it had taken some very hefty falls. There were a few burn marks on the core and so we decided to chop the rope up and use it for other things.

I really want to thank you guys for contributing to this thread. The only thing that is missing is a bondage suspension rigger.

Johnfire, welcome to the boards.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 1/27/2013 6:20:13 PM

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Thank you MariaB

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 2/1/2013 3:56:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnfire

You are correct on the knots weakening the rope just as other bends. There had been a listing somewhere of what percentage each knot weakened the rope. I just can't remember where it was. 2 inch is what had been taught as an optimum bend to not lose strength. That is why most of the rescue pulleys are 2 inch or larger. To me it is making sure you still maintain a good safety factor. Also people need to remember weight rating on ropes is usually static weight. So if you have someone swinging or thrashing around, they will generate a much higher force than if they were just sitting there.

We should also keep in mind that commercial riggers, fire fighters, rescue teams and rock and ice climbers all use certified equipment which has been tested and deemed suitable for the job. Rope really is our life line!
Suspension often happens on a piece of hemp or jute rope that is no more than 5mm in diameter. A bit of cord with no guaranteed shock loads.
When my husband is working off static rope, he wears lanyards (shock absorbers) which like you say, dissipates energy in a fall.
I don't think bondage riggers are going to be convinced until someone gets very seriously hurt or dies. People are taking bigger and bigger risks. I recently saw a group of pictures of a bondage model being suspended from a balcony. She was a good 15 ft in the air with her head facing downwards. There were two, what looked like, 8mm hemp ropes through the anchor which was a bina in a bolt that was in an overhanging beam. It wasn't even two ropes, it was doubled over which meant if one failed it all failed.

That's fucking terrifying!

It's not like it's exactly hard to hide some properly bomb-proof rope in and among the natural fiber stuff to add some decent redudancy if that's what it takes.

With climbing rope you're looking at it every time, fully knowing that you are literally betting your life that this bit of kit will survive up to a proper fall. I had a mammut rope go all lumpy after a fall that must have been near enough factor 2. Glad I checked it before the next time I went out with it.

With kink, I don't see much wrong with using none-tested random bits of cord so long as you accept it's not quite right for the job and use it in a suitably redundant way. Any critical-failure bits should be bomb proof, using climbing rated hardware is great for this, it's complete overkill.

But easy to say what to do, I think the important thing is don't be a fucking idiot and let artistic pursuits get in the way of common sense.

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 2/4/2013 3:16:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoveSlider
It's not like it's exactly hard to hide some properly bomb-proof rope in and among the natural fiber stuff to add some decent redudancy if that's what it takes.

I think Osada Steve is on to the right idea with weaving synthetic into his jute but at the diameters commonly used I still wonder what we're talking about for a breaking strength...

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 2/4/2013 8:54:13 PM

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For photo shoots I use hemp rope that I buy directly from Japan which is handmade. The static load weight is much greater than that which is machine made. The diameter and application of the hemp rope been used in this case for suspension was not sufficiently applied. Doubling the bite of the rope was nowhere near sufficient for suspension. If you are going to do a suspension with excessive swing or movement in it, I prefer and recommend a twisted nylon rope. But then again that is just me speaking from 15 + years experience as a Nawashi Master. Take it for what its worth.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 2/5/2013 6:38:28 AM

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@LoveSlider

Some riggers are now starting to use synthetic hemp but synthetic hemp is an odd one. It has more elasticity than a static rope but less than a dynamic rope.
Every manufacture I have looked at seems to fall short of important information such as, has this rope been pre-stretched or does it need treatment? Its around 1,500 lbs of 'tensile strength'??? which is a hell of a lot more than simple hemp but then again, if this rope is dynamic, that isn't tensile strength but 'impact force'.

My only conclusion is, the people selling this rope for rigging (suspension) don't have a good understanding of how rope works and they don't expect their customers to have or need that knowledge either.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 2/5/2013 7:06:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nawashiwallace

For photo shoots I use hemp rope that I buy directly from Japan which is handmade. The static load weight is much greater than that which is machine made. The diameter and application of the hemp rope been used in this case for suspension was not sufficiently applied. Doubling the bite of the rope was nowhere near sufficient for suspension. If you are going to do a suspension with excessive swing or movement in it, I prefer and recommend a twisted nylon rope. But then again that is just me speaking from 15 + years experience as a Nawashi Master. Take it for what its worth.

Out of interest, what is the static load weight on 6mm hemp?

One of my concerns and this is coming from someone who has a very good knowledge of ropes and how they perform under stress, is, people buy this stuff and then go about destroying it. They dye it, they burn it, they remove the roughness which is its tensile structure. They wax it, they oil it, they tie a dozen knots in it and then they suspend someone on it.

Now the thing is, this is an old method that goes way back but lets remember, it was used on tiny Japanese women and we know that those women are seriously tiny compared to most western women. It was used before there was a modern alternative.

I have been watching riggers for the last 15 years and I have witnessed first hand the ever growing popularity of ropes.
The Japonism of this cult in the western world and within BDSM circles is huge and the bigger it gets, the thinner the cord gets, the bigger the girls get, the more treatments they find for the rope, the more exhibitionist the riggers become in the hope of making a name for themselves. There are so many experts, so many fans hanging onto their every word.
You only have to go on FL to see how many people are desperately clambering for their moment of fame. Some are treated like film stars!

The whole thing is Darwinian

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 2/7/2013 6:57:24 AM

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It is an interesting question, because even in these sort of "dynamic lifts" we're not talking about a properly dynamic load in that there will already be tension on the cords, one would hope!

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoveSlider
It's not like it's exactly hard to hide some properly bomb-proof rope in and among the natural fiber stuff to add some decent redudancy if that's what it takes.

I think Osada Steve is on to the right idea with weaving synthetic into his jute but at the diameters commonly used I still wonder what we're talking about for a breaking strength...

The 4mm nylon stuff I use for cave line has 320kg breaking strain.

A couple of those, with proper redundancy... more than enough.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 2/8/2013 7:21:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: johnfire

You are correct on the knots weakening the rope just as other bends. There had been a listing somewhere of what percentage each knot weakened the rope. I just can't remember where it was. 2 inch is what had been taught as an optimum bend to not lose strength. That is why most of the rescue pulleys are 2 inch or larger. To me it is making sure you still maintain a good safety factor. Also people need to remember weight rating on ropes is usually static weight. So if you have someone swinging or thrashing around, they will generate a much higher force than if they were just sitting there.

I'm not sure this is the kind of info you lost track of, but I found the discussion to be interesting and educational. It was, alas, not stimulating, titillating, or otherwise B&D provocating.
http://allaboutknots.blogspot.com/
If nothing else, I think it's a place to start looking for knot performance studies.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 2/8/2013 8:40:12 PM

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That is pretty close to the same info, probably similar testing. Good find, and a good read for those who like the little extra fyi.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 2/10/2013 12:55:05 PM

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I once turned a bound sub around to a sitting position, forgetting about the dildo, and her gagged uuuummmpsh clued me in instantly - such that no harm was done - but it was a lesson learned.

(in reply to MariaB)

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