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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/6/2013 2:25:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Rigging/suspension bondage has serious risks but being its what gets pussy

So does calling yourself nawashi, I have heard. Until people figure out you're not really a Japanese grandmaster.

Of course, suspension has serious risks, but a lot of the remarks in this thread are friggin'hilarious from a shibari point of view. A soft crash mat build into your floor? Like I would want any bunny of mine standing on an unstable floor when coming down. Redundancy? Japanese aesthetic says less=more, so there is a preference for thin lines, natural materials, and to some extent imperfection. Of course you could do safer suspensions by changing those variables, but it would not be the same. So which you go, safer, or more authentic shibari is a personal choice for rigger and bunny. And yes, authentic in combination with high risks moves means more risks for people doing shows.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/6/2013 4:16:12 PM

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Maybe I just cant stand the thought of some gaijin talking about "real" slobari and how "purists" do it.

Besides, how serious can real.men take people who slave away tying up "bunnies" LOL!

I sail, my ropes keep me alive, my boat from foundering. I think its the whole service aspect of it, spending hours at best service topping just isn't my bag. Trying to do it whilr scoffing other white men aren't japanese enough is just to.much for me to stomach.

(in reply to Guilty1974)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/6/2013 4:41:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974
Of course, suspension has serious risks, but a lot of the remarks in this thread are friggin'hilarious from a shibari point of view.

No

There is nothing inherently particularly risky about a human being suspended just a few feet off the ground. It's the how which makes things risky.

So when you point out that you guys could be doing things safer I agree with you. And you're right it wouldn't be the same, you guys wouldn't have to go around constantly telling each other how dangerous it is anymore.

(in reply to Guilty1974)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/7/2013 12:09:35 AM

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quote:

Maybe I just cant stand the thought of some gaijin talking about "real" slobari and how "purists" do it.

I can imagine. It often comes accross like it's supposed to be better than western bondage. However, that's not the point (and it's not true either). It's a system like any other system of bondage, and I study it. And much like I would like to learn to speak English grammatically correct and without my Dutch accent, not because English is a better language, but because I like English and wouldn't like to speak English with Dutch words in between, I like to learn shibari the way it's done in Japan (which doesn't mean I never adapt anything in play AFTER having studied it, if that suits my partners needs). I am not much of a purist myself in play, but when I do a shibari SHOW, I sometimes opt to do that as pure as I can (and sometimes I don't, depending on the venue, the audience and my mood), to show the audience what shibari can be like.

quote:

I sail, my ropes keep me alive, my boat from foundering. I think its the whole service aspect of it, spending hours at best service topping just isn't my bag. Trying to do it whilr scoffing other white men aren't japanese enough is just to.much for me to stomach.

I don't quite see the service topping point. I use shibari mainly to hurt and humiliate, and being more a sadist than a dominant that suits my needs well. And I wasn't scoffing anyone for being not Japanese enough, I was scoffing someone who obviously hasn't got a clue about shibari for using a Japanese honorific for himself. It's hard to find an English equivalent, but it's something like calling yourself sensei. It's not something you call yourself, not even if you indeed are one, it's something others grant you out of respect for your knowledge and achievements.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/7/2013 11:29:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Yes GotSteel, thats the one. I'm still waiting for him to get back to everyone with a decent explanation.

Reading through the blog it looks like this is what happened:

"I have had some time to think about what actually happened, study the broken rope, talk with knowledgeable people and to make a long story short, during this particular show I use a lever construction where I apply a great deal of force on the main suspension rope to lift my girl way up in the air. This results in a sawing action between the running end of my rope and the standing part attached to the upperbody bondage. This sawing action most likely sawed through (part of) one strand and the applied force resulted in a complete break of my main suspension rope."

Well theres a surprise!!

This fundamentally proves that they don't understand safe practice....

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/7/2013 11:45:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

While it sounds chilling, I understand his line of thought (being an aquaintance of the man). Bob is quite psuhing things to edge, and what they did was not play, but show. In a show, people take more risks. He was using a high force oull with hemp rope. Circus dudes walk the highwire without net. Both were consenting adults and knew they were taking a risk.

I am bored reading about people who think its okay to take unnecessary risks. If the above statement of the events is genuine, then there are no excuses, it was plain stupidity and anyone who regularly depends on a piece of string to keep them alive would agree with me.

I have been a fetish performer for years and I don't do things by halves. It makes no difference if I'm scening or doing a show, safety is paramount to my other half. I don't take more risks because I have an audience or because I'm getting paid!! Whilst I may make a flesh hook suspension appear to be a sadistic and cruel act when done as a performance, it is in fact a very controlled thing and there will be no surprises because its planned to the letter.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/8/2013 8:27:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I am bored reading about people who think its okay to take unnecessary risks. If the above statement of the events is genuine, then there are no excuses, it was plain stupidity and anyone who regularly depends on a piece of string to keep them alive would agree with me.

Yes, and I'm bored with the multitude of halfwits who haven't got a clue about shibari spamming their bollocks all over the net, but there ain't much we can do about that either. While you may believe that it's not okay to take unnecessary risks, I believe the risks in this case were necessary to put on the show the perfomer did. You may not find that a legitimate reason, but I do.

I also know very few people who have been more active in bringing shibari knowledge and safety discussions to the west than Bob over the last one and a half decade.

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/8/2013 9:04:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I am bored reading about people who think its okay to take unnecessary risks. If the above statement of the events is genuine, then there are no excuses, it was plain stupidity and anyone who regularly depends on a piece of string to keep them alive would agree with me.

Yes, and I'm bored with the multitude of halfwits who haven't got a clue about shibari spamming their bollocks all over the net, but there ain't much we can do about that either. While you may believe that it's not okay to take unnecessary risks, I believe the risks in this case were necessary to put on the show the perfomer did. You may not find that a legitimate reason, but I do.

I also know very few people who have been more active in bringing shibari knowledge and safety discussions to the west than Bob over the last one and a half decade.

The problem is, Bob is a very big fish in a very small pond. In other words he has a captive audience who will hang off his every word.
Regardless of how good his reputation is, perhaps he shouldn't be doing this if he has to take unnecessary risks, not with his own life but with someone else's, especially when he knows full well that he has a potentially ignorant audience that will go off and copy his act.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/8/2013 1:41:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Reading through the blog it looks like this is what happened:

"I have had some time to think about what actually happened, study the broken rope, talk with knowledgeable people and to make a long story short, during this particular show I use a lever construction where I apply a great deal of force on the main suspension rope to lift my girl way up in the air. This results in a sawing action between the running end of my rope and the standing part attached to the upperbody bondage. This sawing action most likely sawed through (part of) one strand and the applied force resulted in a complete break of my main suspension rope."

Well theres a surprise!!

This fundamentally proves that they don't understand safe practice....

I don't want to over generalize with statements like "they" but I will say that the threads on fetlife where I've seen this come up I've been horrified at the lack of people queuing in on the complete incompetence that was that setup.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 6/8/2013 1:42:50 PM >

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/16/2013 8:56:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
The problem is, Bob is a very big fish in a very small pond. In other words he has a captive audience who will hang off his every word.
Regardless of how good his reputation is, perhaps he shouldn't be doing this if he has to take unnecessary risks, not with his own life but with someone else's, especially when he knows full well that he has a potentially ignorant audience that will go off and copy his act.

I know he is quite concerned with that and in the media always warns people not to copy. I think that that is also why he (and many other other performers including myself) post openly about accidents. The accusing way those posts are discussed here, however, do not contribute to an open dialogue on accidents (which is fortunately much better at more specialised forums).

Th eignorant audience, by the way, should not do suspension in the first place. If anything, such an accidents proofs that it is indeed dangerous.

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/16/2013 1:58:41 PM

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Lets go right back to the beginning. The whole point of this post was to discuss what happened. We now know what happened but it seems to me that the logical conclusion is that we should now be doing something different and that people agree not to do what he did because what he did has been proven to fail. Instead, from what I am reading, it sounds like everyone is still talking about what a shame and 'yes' we appreciate how dangerous this is.

What I and others in this thread have pointed out is, tradition isn't always the way forward and once something has a failure rate attached to it we need to look at safer alternatives. If we choose not to use safe alternatives because (a) its not traditional enough and (b) its not as aesthetically pleasing enough or (c) because we are willing to accept the dangers, then if the same accident happens again its no longer an accident.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/16/2013 3:40:18 PM

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Off Topic: Glad to see you posting, MariaB.

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(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/17/2013 2:29:19 AM

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Thanks Red!..I started this thread and should see it through. Other than that I'm just posting on politics as its nothing like as controversial as BDSM

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/17/2013 2:36:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Lets go right back to the beginning. The whole point of this post was to discuss what happened. We now know what happened but it seems to me that the logical conclusion is that we should now be doing something different and that people agree not to do what he did because what he did has been proven to fail. Instead, from what I am reading, it sounds like everyone is still talking about what a shame and 'yes' we appreciate how dangerous this is.

No, you misinterpret. Yes, this needs analysis, and yes, I am quite sure Bob will not do the exact same move again. The ""sawing through" can probably be prevented. What happens here is that people who know jack shit about shibari keep whining about supposed solutions that do not fit within the framework of shibari. They miss the point of shibari as a system, which is not just a matter of aesthetics, but also of safety and performance related concepts. For instance, if you move to slick, synthetic rope, you can't do friction style techniques. Friction style techniques, howver, have huge advantages in tying AND untying speed, and has advantages doing dynamic moves, which make things safer (untie speed is king, and dynamic movements prevent nerve injuries. So, within the framework of shibari, the solution makes no sense. Solving this problem should be done from within the framework of shibari as a whole, by people who understand that framework thoroughly.

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/17/2013 2:42:18 AM

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To clarify that more by analogy: What happens is like upon an accident with a boeiing aircraft yelling we should all fly airbuss in the future, instead of fixing the the problem with the boeiing.

(in reply to Guilty1974)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/17/2013 5:52:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

quote:

No, you misinterpret. Yes, this needs analysis, and yes, I am quite sure Bob will not do the exact same move again. The ""sawing through" can probably be prevented.

The action Bob used to saw thourgh his rope would of happened with any rope. It would of happened with nylon rope, cotton rope, Teflon coated rope. There is absolutely no probable about it. Its not about the rope but about the sawing action of one moving piece and one static piece.

quote:

For instance, if you move to slick, synthetic rope, you can't do friction style techniques. Friction style techniques, howver, have huge advantages in tying AND untying speed, and has advantages doing dynamic moves, which make things safer (untie speed is king, and dynamic movements prevent nerve injuries. So, within the framework of shibari, the solution makes no sense. Solving this problem should be done from within the framework of shibari as a whole, by people who understand that framework thoroughly.

There is a fundamental problem here. If its dangerous and you carry on doing it, sooner or later you will badly injure or kill someone. Back up systems have been looked at and declined as too slow and yet its those very back up systems (with hemp no less) that prevent accidents.

Contrary to what you believe I actually know quite a bit about Shibari. It was only after recieving permanent and painful neuropathy from a box tie (Done by a very well known Shibari performer) that I started to look more deeply into the hidden dangers behind this pass time.

We have spoken and continue to speak at length with various Shibari Masters who are concerned that they could be putting their Shibari models in danger.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/17/2013 6:36:43 AM

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quote:

We have spoken and continue to speak at length with various Shibari Masters who are concerned that they could be putting their Shibari models in danger.

Virtually all sihibari experts worry about what they do, because it is inherently dangerous. That said, I don't know who you spoke to. There are so many people calling themselves shibari master (or what they do shibari) without having any actual training in authentic japanese techniques that that simple statement, without names, does not tell me anything about your actual knowledge level. Personally, there is only a good handfull of people who I'd call "Shibari Master" in the western world. Most of the rest do fusion or western style bondage or use their own (often badly) reverse engineered Japanese style ties and have not been taught the finer details.

I do think, by the way, that bottoms should educate themselves more on the dangers of shibari as much as riggers. It's their lives that are on the line. WIthout thorough knowledge, you cannot assess the qulaity of a rigger.

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/17/2013 7:03:49 AM

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Because this is highly controversial, I'm not prepared to give names but one of these people was mentioned in an earlier post on this thread.

I agree, bottoms/rope models should educate themselves. Unfortunately, like many things, everyone but their uncle is running a workshop and because so many of us look at these people as 'teachers'/'experts of their trade we do make that human error of trusting someone that perhaps we shouldn't of.

Trevor Newashi may well be celebrated as the Master of rope within his small circle, he's in fact a supermarket manager who took up ropes 3 years ago and discovered, from books and videos, he could replicate his teachers from the east. He can talk the talk, has done some daring performances and he runs workshops where nobody ever really questions his ability. He gets to suspend the prettiest, youngest and slimmest girls who continue to put their trust in him because he is an 'expert' after all!

What credentials should these rope models/bottoms be asking for?

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/17/2013 8:10:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974
No, you misinterpret. Yes, this needs analysis, and yes, I am quite sure Bob will not do the exact same move again. The ""sawing through" can probably be prevented.

*Face palm* It's not like Bob's the first guy to ever use a z-pulley. Hauling systems are commonly used and very well understood. You've spoken with some contempt towards the ignorant, a lot of us feel similarly which is why we're speaking out against such incidents of incompetence. I'm used to rank amateurs knowing better than to have rope running across rope. That's a super basic here's how to find your ass with both hands level concept. When I say that sawing through the bight is the predictable result of improper lifting technique, that's not just my opinion. It's not only well known in every other field of suspension it's page 11 of Complete Shibari vol 2.

The problem and solutions are well known there's no need for analysis, this issue has already been analyzed to death. The problem is ignorance of that analysis within your community.

(in reply to Guilty1974)

RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/17/2013 10:27:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Trevor Newashi may well be celebrated as the Master of rope within his small circle, he's in fact a supermarket manager who took up ropes 3 years ago and discovered, from books and videos, he could replicate his teachers from the east. He can talk the talk, has done some daring performances and he runs workshops where nobody ever really questions his ability. He gets to suspend the prettiest, youngest and slimmest girls who continue to put their trust in him because he is an 'expert' after all!

What credentials should these rope models/bottoms be asking for?

I don't think it's credentials that's the main point (at least not in the meaning of where someone learned or references), rather I think bottoms should know a fair bit of bondage safety themselves, such as hard point evaluation, major nerve paths, some basics about the most common ties.

Kinda like that when Trevor Nawashi (who I usually call Jack the Rigger) does a Two Big Guys test on the water drain of an old forest house and then explains why circulation is the most important issue in Rope Bondage while tying a self-tightening wrist tie, the bunny knows she's gotta run.

(in reply to MariaB)

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