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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 2/21/2013 11:52:47 AM

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NewashiWallace, its good to see you put extra precautions in place.

Got Steel, thanks for the link to FL and this link
http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html which simplifies the less time it takes to stop, the greater the forces. I sincerely hope lots of people read this.

We have been doing some of our own sums and have calculated that the shock load applied to the cord from a 10 cm fall is 490 kg based on a 60kg model, from a height of 0.1 meters. In exactly the same scenario but the distance the model falls is doubled to 0.2 meters, the shock load would be 970 kg.

Two burly men hanging off a rope may test an anchor but doesn't begin to approach shock loads.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 2/22/2013 3:57:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoveSlider
Climbers bouldering mat... cheap, easily obtained and designed for the job...

I've seen broken bones from bouldering even with the pad. Don't get me wrong it's a system that works pretty well as long as the person lands right. The thing with rope bottoms being that they likely aren't really in control of their bodies on account of being tied up.

While there are some positions where I wouldn't worry to much about a person falling a few feet, there are others that I suspect could be deadly even with a padded landing. Take this lady for instance, what would happen if she came down on a crash pad or even Nawashi's setup on her head with her neck going the wrong way...

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/2/2013 8:19:33 AM

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Well, here is the problem with that suspension pictured above; improper anchoring point to the ceiling. Granted there is always an inherent danger with all suspension, but in the case of this suspension, if should fall from either the rope breaking or the anchor point giving way, this model is dead. Mat or not. C2,3,4 shattered (instant death), both ankles, shin bones and knees shattered along with wrist, radius & ulna bones, and clavicles broken. Possible pelvic and lower lumbar dislocation or fractures. Only a total idiot will use a single suspension point in my professional opinion on such a highly dangerous suspension. Yes, I have a medical background, I am a Trauma Specialist for the last 15 years. So I take extreme precautions when it comes to my rigging and safety backups. I would never employ this suspension.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/9/2013 11:36:23 AM

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Unfortunately, as is involved in many aspects of the community, some people just don't care about safety as much as they should. I understand the relationship between danger and excitement, so much of the things that I do are extremely dangerous, but the precautions taken are as good as I can make them. Then you have the ones that are simply ignorant of proper method. In my opinion, it's deplorable, and I can only hope that not too many of the submissives are injured.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/10/2013 7:43:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoveSlider
The 4mm nylon stuff I use for cave line has 320kg breaking strain.

I'm jealous that you cave I haven't gotten to go since college.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/10/2013 7:48:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nawashiwallace
Well, here is the problem with that suspension pictured above; improper anchoring point to the ceiling.

Oh there are several problems with that suspension.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nawashiwallace
Granted there is always an inherent danger with all suspension, but in the case of this suspension, if should fall from either the rope breaking or the anchor point giving way, this model is dead. Mat or not. C2,3,4 shattered (instant death), both ankles, shin bones and knees shattered along with wrist, radius & ulna bones, and clavicles broken. Possible pelvic and lower lumbar dislocation or fractures.

Thank you for explaining that so well. That's my point, with some suspensions meh it doesn't really matter if the anchors are crap and the rope is inadequate. Just throw a mattress down and a fall of a few feet doesn't matter. However, there are plenty of positions where it's quite dangerous to fall even if there is a mat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nawashiwallace
Only a total idiot will use a single suspension point in my professional opinion on such a highly dangerous suspension.

But what about the rope?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nawashiwallace
Yes, I have a medical background, I am a Trauma Specialist for the last 15 years. So I take extreme precautions when it comes to my rigging and safety backups. I would never employ this suspension.

But you still use a kind of rope that's made of suck and fail. It goes back to the kind of thing I was saying on page one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
It's baffling to me how those people will argue endlessly over building the strongest possible anchor point only to turn around and hang people off as few strands of very narrow diameter hemp/jute as they could possibly get away with.

What's the point of the system above the anchor being able to hold 7500 lbs when the rope will only be capable of holding a few hundred pounds?

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/11/2013 6:02:03 AM

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Sorry I haven't been able to get on here. Not sure if CM is having server issues.

That picture is terrifying GotSteel. Ty for posting that and thanks for getting back to this very important part of rope suspension (the rope itself).

I have had and continue to have so many heated debates about natural fiber rope and its uses.

Just because its a traditional Japanese thing, it doesn't make it a suitable substitute for rope that has been through rigorous testing. Things move on, things evolve. Dockers and the shipping industry used to use thick hemp rope but its life was short and there were many reported accidents caused by the rope breaking at sea. When an alternative came along, hemp became semi redundant and is only now used for aesthetic purposes.

Surely once we understand the frailties of natural fiber rope, we must take responsibility of what is acceptable and what isn’t? Ive already said this but feel the need to re-iterate, copying some guru rope Nawashi in the art of rope suspension does not and should not abstain us from responsibility.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/11/2013 6:20:23 AM

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We are continuing to test hemp rope of different thicknesses and that have gone through different treatments after purchase.

One of the things we discovered was, sweat is a real problem when it comes to organic fiber rope. The moisture from the skin contains salt and when the cord dries out the salt crystals are left in the fibers of the rope. The rope stiffens from these crystals and has to be manipulated to regain its softness. As the crystals are broken down through the manual softening process, it creates a further physical problem. The salt crystals have very sharp edges and these edges can physically damage the fibers of the rope. This is impossible to see through the naked eye.
A further problem with the salt crystals which are now embedded but invisible within the rope is, they are hydroscopic so draw more water in. This changes the ph (the acidity of the environment). Knowing this, you put your cord in the washing machine, soak it all the way through to wash the salts out but in the process, detergents, conditioners and heat will change the physical structure of the fibers and potentially compromise the cord.

Dying the cord is going to be an interesting one because even the most organic and environmentally friendly dyes have some very caustic substances in them. I'm really looking forward to seeing the chemical reaction that goes on in both hemp and jute rope during this process.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/12/2013 8:32:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
What's the point of the system above the anchor being able to hold 7500 lbs when the rope will only be capable of holding a few hundred pounds?

That's a typo, it should read:

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
What's the point of the system above the rope being able to hold 7500 lbs when the rope will only be capable of holding a few hundred pounds?

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/13/2013 3:04:52 PM

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I just wanted to thank all of you for an informative and interesting conversation. Plus, it's illustrated!

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/16/2013 5:57:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
A woman was recently dropped from a bondage suspension because the ropes used for the lifts, which btw had been doubled up broke.
The rigger, a well known and highly respected rope master, wrote a blog about this accident.

Is this the blog? http://www.blogropemarks.com/pivotx/?e=269

Because I find this guys take on things chilling:

"Looking back at the incidents I know of and/or heard of it was probably just a matter of time before something happened to me. If it hasn't happend to _you_ yet it will."

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/16/2013 12:35:59 PM

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Yes GotSteel, thats the one. I'm still waiting for him to get back to everyone with a decent explanation. Unfortunately I don't think that is going to happen.

I'm pleased you got me to re-look at that link because Bruce had apparently sent us some more rope which we didn't actually get.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/17/2013 5:05:18 PM

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Cotton rope is great for everything except suspension. It's far too weak for that. Stick to good quality, load-rated Nylon or Dacron rope. I like Dacron because it has the feel of cotton. Stay away from most hardware store ropes unless a working load is specified. The working load should be at least four times the actual weight being suspended, since knots and age/use weaken it.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/18/2013 3:55:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

OK. Let me start out by saying I know NOTHING of rope or suspension. The closest I've come is sometimes I like dressing Carol up in a fairly simple body harness. I think the rope cost me 5 bucks at home depot. It's a cool purple color that goes well with her skin. Therein lies the end of my knowledge in this subject.

But what I am is an engineer used to thinking in terms of "points of failure", "redundancy", "risk", etc. And that photo is simply insane even to a rank novice. What's that say of the alleged expert that did it?

In regards the rest of the thread I can't really imagine myself hoisting Carol up with some random rope. My head would automatically go to climbing rope simply because it was designed for exactly this sort of thing. I'd certainly go to google (rock climbing) and look into standard safety ratios and simply implement them. It also wouldn't have occurred to me to use a setup that had one or more single points of failure in it. What sort of idiot would do that?

The odds of me trusting some BDSM book/lecture on a topic like this are zero for exactly the reason one previous poster said... "humans are notorious for being idiots around sex". I like to get my D/s knowledge from the business section of the book store. I'd get my rope knowledge from the sports section. I think trying to get any knowledge from the sex department is sort of ridiculous unless it's sex knowledge.

edited to add
Thanks for this thread Maria. Very interesting read - especially since rope is one of the few kinks that I've shown any interest in at all so this might actually be a possibility in our future.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/18/2013 4:06:48 PM

Thaz

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I had my thanks for this thread.

I'm a very exerienced rock climber and mountaineer although I'm mostly in retirement these days.
I am very new at applying those skills to a human body.
I'm frankly VERY unhappy with what I've found with the safety standards in current use.

I have however bumped into at least one person doing suspension who is also a simmilar background to myself and doing it right. So places to learn!

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/19/2013 4:04:03 AM

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Thanks guys. I think anyone who has a climbing background is going to think like we do Thaz. I think anyone with an engineering background is going to think the same way Jeff.

Esinem http://esinem.com/category/articles/safety is a friend of mine who is paving the way in all the aspects of safety with rope. People will listen to him because he's a highly respected man in this field.

I think are quite a few Japanese shibari masters that are starting to show concern but I have always said, 'you can't teach a monkey to play the violin. It will just go off and do its own thing'.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/19/2013 10:36:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Esinem http://esinem.com/category/articles/safety is a friend of mine who is paving the way in all the aspects of safety with rope. People will listen to him because he's a highly respected man in this field.

I just went and took a look and bookmarked that site. I couldn't see any results of course but the general thought patterns seemed very credible to my engineer's brain. It's just the sort of place I might actually trust getting some information on (that I had double checked with rock climbing information). If I actually involve myself in this I'd pay for membership.

LOL, I a second ago I suggested he do an intro book. Foolishly I skipped over his "shop" link :)

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 3/19/2013 10:37:33 AM >

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 3/23/2013 8:11:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Yes GotSteel, thats the one. I'm still waiting for him to get back to everyone with a decent explanation.

Reading through the blog it looks like this is what happened:

"I have had some time to think about what actually happened, study the broken rope, talk with knowledgeable people and to make a long story short, during this particular show I use a lever construction where I apply a great deal of force on the main suspension rope to lift my girl way up in the air. This results in a sawing action between the running end of my rope and the standing part attached to the upperbody bondage. This sawing action most likely sawed through (part of) one strand and the applied force resulted in a complete break of my main suspension rope."

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/6/2013 1:29:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Because I find this guys take on things chilling:

"Looking back at the incidents I know of and/or heard of it was probably just a matter of time before something happened to me. If it hasn't happend to _you_ yet it will."

While it sounds chilling, I understand his line of thought (being an aquaintance of the man). Bob is quite psuhing things to edge, and what they did was not play, but show. In a show, people take more risks. He was using a high force oull with hemp rope. Circus dudes walk the highwire without net. Both were consenting adults and knew they were taking a risk.

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RE: dropping a bondaged person - 6/6/2013 1:52:33 PM

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Rigging/suspension bondage has serious risks but being its what gets pussy, it won't go away and neother,will the preference for cool over safety.

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