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holocaust denial is not antisemitic

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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holocaust denial is not antisemitic

holocaust denial IS anti-Semitic... or if you please only claimed by those anti-Semitic...or those uneducated...otherwise dumb assed ignorant.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: TAFKAA

No, it's not implicitly anti-Semitic and to suggest it is, is - quite ironically - fascist.

The motivation behind advocating it may, indeed, be antisemitism, however you can't take a topic and venture that, by it's very nature, advocating a particular position is antisemitism.

What you're advocating is fascist censorship which is antithetical to the first amendment to the constitution. Your contention that anyone advocating Holocaust Denial is - by implication - making comments on the moral code of an entire culture is not only a logical fallacy, it is the most appalling kind of disingenuous bullshit which attempts to silence debate by winning the moral war and casting people who advocate a certain position as the bad guy.

Holocaust Denial - like all arguments - will live and die on the foothold it gains in the social consciousness. While the vast majority of academics and influential social commentators oppose it on the basis of historical fact and their ability to back that up remains intact, it will remain a fringe theory.

If, on the other hand, those advocating this position manage to present evidence which backs up their contention and they're able to persuade other people through reason, then the social position on this - or indeed any issue - can and should change. This is how society's position on - for example - the gay community and on the role of women in society have migrated from the 50's to the attitudes of the present day.

You're trying to turn the Holocaust into a sacred cow that cannot be re-examined or subject to the dictates of reason or science. And I would expect reason and science will largely continue to support the historical record as we know it.

You seem obsessed with antisemitism lately. I saw you going on about it in P&R the other day. Why?

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

A few reasons.

I know someone that survived the camps, he went in as an infant with a twin brother, was the subject of medical experiments and somehow survived.

I have toured the fucking camps and seen what they were.

I have a number of Jewish friends that have been the target of name calling and in two cases assaults because they were Jewish,
.

And finally there are a number of people on these boards that continually criticize Israel for actions that the Arab nations are doing to Jews.

Then of course you have idiots that deny the holocaust and post links to antisemitic sites as proof that it never happened.

\And while those posters can spout their crap and stuff all over these forums, when another poster calls them on it, their posts are removed and they are warned.

And for the record, Denial of the Holocaust is considered antisemitic by a lot of non Jewish groups around the world and some countries have enacted laws against it.

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I have complained repeatedly about this poster on a number of occasions, the denial of the holocaust, and other issues I felt were in violation of the TOS, nothing happened, yet my posts directly confronting him have been pulled on a number of occasions. It makes me wonder sometimes.

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ORIGINAL: theRose4U

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I have complained repeatedly about this poster on a number of occasions, the denial of the holocaust, and other issues I felt were in violation of the TOS, nothing happened, yet my posts directly confronting him have been pulled on a number of occasions. It makes me wonder sometimes.

The 50+page decline of CM pretty much proved there are agendas on what stays & what goes. I was called inappropriate names BY NAME when hadn't been on for 6 hours. Yet its still there while newbie spews his crap.
Worse is the more crap spewed the more convinced I become he's someone that keeps creating new Id's to troll the "I'm the best & twuest domly dom that ever dommed" vitrol

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

fine you toured the camps, but do you know what it required to use gas without killing yourself or others around you?

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You seen the bullet holes in the wall of death?

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I am still waiting for all those death records you talked about in the other thread.

The germans kept exemplary records

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Disparaging either Jews as a whole, or individually, or the Jewish race/religion solely or substantially on account of their Jewishness or following recognized practices whether religious or not that is attributable to being either of the Jewish race or religion, singling out Jews for special treatment solely because they are Jewish. This all addresses their RACE or religion, it has nothing to do with political beliefs or the arena. Therefore, criticism of the Israeli state is not anti-Semitism. Other racial/religious comments that are not allowed can include, but not be limited to, any derogatory comment attacking someone because of something they practice or believe because of their race, gender, religious, or sexual beliefs.

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ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

~ Fast Reply ~

While I think holocaust denial is ignorant, I am not sure I'd classify it as anti-semetic. Unless the one denying hates jewish people and has antisemitic motivations, I'd say simply saying the holocaust didn't exist doesn't necessarily show antisemitism.

That said...

I had the privilege of spending an afternoon with David Faber, an Auschwitz (and 7 other camps) survivor. He was doing a speaking engagement at my work at the time (2006) and his ride to his next engagement fell through, so I offered to drive him. He honored me with a personalized, signed copy of his book, "Because of Romek."

In the car, I asked him what he thought of those who deny the holocausts existence, that surely he's been confronted. He said he tells these people, "Before deciding that as truth, go visit. Go to Auschwitz. Go to where the other camps were. Look and see for yourself. And after that, if you still believe it didn't happen, then share that all you like. But until you personally see it, your words don't have any meaning to me."

As for the pools. Here's an excerpt from Faber's book, Chapter 19, Page 167:

"Strip and jump in!" the Kapo ordered.

As soon as the first people slid into the pool they started screaming. The rest of us hung back, but the Kapos hit us with bats and hoses, and the SS men hit us with their rifles and drove us into the pool.

[narrative removed until Page 168]

People climbed out of the pool screaming and crying. Many others floated in the water or lay on the bottom.

The SS men pushed us into the pool. It didn't feel like water. It burned. I grabbed for the side and pulled myself out.

[dialogue with fellow kids (they were teenagers) removed]

Showers lined the walls. Each of us got under one and let the cold water pour over us. I squinted at Jacob and the other people. Then I looked at my own body.

All my hair was gone. My armpits and my groin burned like they were on fire. Blisters covered my body, as if somebody had poured boiling water over me. My lips were swollen. My eyes were closed.

I picked up my prison uniform, but I couldn't stand to have it touch me. My skin was peeling. Naked, I went outside. The cold felt good on my burning skin.


(Kapos were political prisoners, or criminals convicted of murder or other serious crimes, assisting in the manning of the camp barracks)

The parts I removed/didn't quote were dialogues or recollections of being a child, that didn't apply to what we're talking about here, so I removed them for brevity.

In any case, I don't think the pools were for leisurely swims.

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The definition of antisemitism as per VAA.

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Disparaging either Jews as a whole, or individually, or the Jewish race/religion solely or substantially on account of their Jewishness or following recognized practices whether religious or not that is attributable to being either of the Jewish race or religion, singling out Jews for special treatment solely because they are Jewish. This all addresses their RACE or religion, it has nothing to do with political beliefs or the arena. Therefore, criticism of the Israeli state is not anti-Semitism. Other racial/religious comments that are not allowed can include, but not be limited to, any derogatory comment attacking someone because of something they practice or believe because of their race, gender, religious, or sexual beliefs.

Disparaging 1 : to lower in rank or reputation : degrade
2: to depreciate by indirect means (as invidious comparison) : speak slightingly about


an·ti-Sem·i·tism
[an-tee-sem-i-tiz-uhm, an-tahy-]
noun
discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews.

How is denying a people's history as false, or that it never happened not disparaging to the Jewish people?

How is denying the fact that 6 million Jews died at the hands of the Nazi's because there were "swimming pools" at the camps? And continuing with that assertion even when proven wrong is not disparaging the Jewish race?

I have not denied it, I am only the reporter Jeff, they are the ones that put up the new sign that lowered the count not me. I dont make the history I just present it as I find it.

In my opinion that is like claiming that the trail of tears never happened, and six of my ancestors died of old age, not starvation during the forced migration of Cherokee, Crow and other tribes from the south Eastern US.
That is what is so bad about imperialism and land grabs like afghanastan and Iraq, they did the same thing there, thank you very much GB and USofK
Furthermore, this individual has made the claim that Ike Eisenhower was Jewish and had death camps of German POW's.




Yeh while patton released most of his german prisoners Eisenhauer did not.

Eisenhauer wrote to his wife telling her how he "hated" germans.

Its all a matter of public record I do not understand why you have such difficulty with it all?

They do not teach this stuff, it comes from research and many hours at the national archives and other libraries.






And most of the websites he links to in order to prove his point is either anti semitic revisionist history or managed by known antisemitic groups or individuals.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I have to admit I haven't read most of the comments.  They make me too angry, even though many agree with me about anti-semitism.

As for YOU Real0ne, swimming pools at Auschwitz/Birchenou?  Your daddy told you this as a kid, huh?
Here is the one where you toured.


this one is ravensbruck, several camps had them.

Here's the thing.  I was THERE.  I walked alonged the barracks and the entire facility. 

So did you take a dip in that pool that I posted? You have to pay extra for a personal tour to see that.

I saw with my own eyes the 2000 pounds of human hair that was taken to be spun into yarn to make pillowcases, sheets, uniforms.  I saw it with my own two eyes!

But the question is did you find any pillow cases, sheets, uniforms, or yarn?

I have been looking for the actually products made from this hair and have not yet been able to find any. Post a link to them maybe?

You are aware that the soap from the fat of these people and lamp shades was proven to be a nasty ole hoax long time ago right?



I saw the unheated barracks where there were wooden bunks that built to hold 3 people, held six. 

Do you believe people can survive with no heat in -20 below zero weather? If yes then how? I cannot fathom that.
I stood in the gas chamber looking up and wondering what those poor people, some of whome the Nazis actually forced to purchase trains tickets to their own death, were feeling when it happened to them. 
So you really got into the passion and death feeling then? Catholics do that when they do the stations of the cross. Its called the passion.

Which gas chamber?



The fake russian one?


The bomb shelter?


the oven room?
cant find that one

the one with the window?



this one?



I saw with my own eyes the prosthetics that were piled ten feet high, the suitcases, the shoes.
You do realize that those are only displays do you not? in other words there are eevated platforms that are hollow underneath to give the illusion it is a huge pile when in fact it is only a lay, likewise the wall of shoes that are only maybe a foot and 1/2 thick just wide enough to fill any light gaps and to give the impression it extends back several feet.

You are aware those are only displays the yes?

Originally, Auschwitz/Birkinau took "mug shot" style photos of the jews that entered the camp.  Quickly they realized that not only were the photos expensive, but when the person died a month later they couldn't tell who they were.  Starvation, abuse, illness drastically changed their appearance.  So they began to tattoo.



So yes, it happened.  It was horrific to say the least.  To think otherwise makes one just as ignorant as a skinhead, klanner or any other hate group you can think of.  Because that is the basis of their, and all hate.  Ignorance.

ETA:  I want to load the pictures, but am told they are too large.  I don't know how to do that.

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961
The truth of the matter is that by denying the Holocaust, you are basically calling Jews liars, denying there history.

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Collarme has decided that holocaust denial is not antisemitic, I think it is, what is your opinions? Should the TOS reflect the given world view on the subject?

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne
We need for you to explain the difference because someone apparently cant count very well, that and another huge problem is that according to your standards that makes the proprietors of auschwitz antisemite because now there is a 2.5 million difference from the 6 million.

They changed the official count somehow just wiped out 2.5 million people

So Jeff what makes me an antisemite instead of a news reporter that is reporting interesting "stuff".

How is a Japanese-Jew a semite?

These are all very simple questions why have you not answered any of them?

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ORIGINAL: TAFKAA

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne
We need for you to explain the difference because someone apparently cant count very well, that and another huge problem is that according to your standards that makes the proprietors of auschwitz antisemite because now there is a 2.5 million difference from the 6 million.

They changed the official count somehow just wiped out 2.5 million people

So Jeff what makes me an antisemite instead of a news reporter that is reporting interesting "stuff".

How is a Japanese-Jew a semite?

These are all very simple questions why have you not answered any of them?

Oh, I can explain that dude. In fact Wikipedia is readily able to explain it to you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#Death_toll

In particular, I note this bit:

After the collapse of the Communist government in 1989, the plaque at Auschwitz State Museum was removed and the official death toll given as 1.1 million. Holocaust deniers have attempted to use this change as propaganda, in the words of the Nizkor Project:

Deniers often use the 'Four Million Variant' as a stepping stone to leap from an apparent contradiction to the idea that the Holocaust was a hoax, again perpetrated by a conspiracy. They hope to discredit historians by making them seem inconsistent. If they can't keep their numbers straight, their reasoning goes, how can we say that their evidence for the Holocaust is credible? One must wonder which historians they speak of, as most have been remarkably consistent in their estimates of a million or so dead... Few (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure, having arrived at their own estimates independently. The museum's inflated figures were never part of the estimated five to six million Jews killed in the Holocaust, so there is no need to revise this figure.

The simplest explanation is that - like Holocaust Deniers - communist governments have a very tenuous relationship with the truth and Poland's post-war government was distinctly communist.

It's not so much that you're an anti-Semite dude - you're just an apologist for Islamic aggression. And you think attacking the Holocaust is attacking the character of the Jewish people - and by extension the Israelis - instead of just being the ridiculous sideshow that it is.

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Example Death certificate from Auschwitz


According to the official death books, there were 400,000 prisoners at Auschwitz

Half Israelis - 200,000

Of that number, 30,000 died
15%

Also according to the official death books, the other 200,000 breaks down like this

165,000 Catholics
12,300 Eastern Orthodox
11,600 Protestants
5,500 Greek Catholics
9,700 Other, including 5 Muslims and 387 Jehovah's Witnesses

of these numbers:

Almost 32,000 Catholics died, almost 2,500 Eastern Orthodox died, almost 2,300 Protestants died, over 1,000 Greek Catholics died

In other words:

82.5%
Of the Catholics died

20.3%
Of the Eastern Orthodox died

19.8%
Of the protestants died

18.2%
Of the Greek Catholics died

Compared to 15% of the Israelis

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The definition of antisemitism as per VAA.

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Disparaging either Jews as a whole, or individually, or the Jewish race/religion solely or substantially on account of their Jewishness or following recognized practices whether religious or not that is attributable to being either of the Jewish race or religion, singling out Jews for special treatment solely because they are Jewish. This all addresses their RACE or religion, it has nothing to do with political beliefs or the arena. Therefore, criticism of the Israeli state is not anti-Semitism. Other racial/religious comments that are not allowed can include, but not be limited to, any derogatory comment attacking someone because of something they practice or believe because of their race, gender, religious, or sexual beliefs.

Disparaging 1 : to lower in rank or reputation : degrade
2: to depreciate by indirect means (as invidious comparison) : speak slightingly about


an·ti-Sem·i·tism
[an-tee-sem-i-tiz-uhm, an-tahy-]
noun
discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews.

How is denying a people's history as false, or that it never happened not disparaging to the Jewish people?

How is denying the fact that 6 million Jews died at the hands of the Nazi's because there were "swimming pools" at the camps? And continuing with that assertion even when proven wrong is not disparaging the Jewish race?

In my opinion that is like claiming that the trail of tears never happened, and six of my ancestors died of old age, not starvation during the forced migration of Cherokee, Crow and other tribes from the south Eastern US.

Furthermore, this individual has made the claim that Ike Eisenhower was Jewish and had death camps of German POW's.

And most of the websites he links to in order to prove his point is either anti semitic revisionist history or managed by known antisemitic groups or individuals.