RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warming (and other antiscience legislation)

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/6/2013 7:19:34 AM

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quote:

Just wondering...if public schools who teach the science of evolution are required to present the alternative intelligent design...will parochial schools that teach intelligent design be required to present the alternative evolution? Wouldn't that be a kick in the ass to the fanatics that can't keep religion in the home and church and out of public schools?

This^^^ I am a Christian, but it kills me that people don't get this. It's like those people who scream for prayer in schools...do they really think it would just be the prayers they hear at their local baptist church??? If you want your child to believe a certain tenet of faith, then teach it to YOUR child - do not make it a public school's job to do so.

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/6/2013 8:09:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Missouri's HB 179 and HB 291 target evolution only, with HB 291 requiring, "If scientific theory concerning biological origin is taught in a course of study, biological evolution and biological intelligent design shall be taught.

Just wondering...if public schools who teach the science of evolution are required to present the alternative intelligent design...will parochial schools that teach intelligent design be required to present the alternative evolution? Wouldn't that be a kick in the ass to the fanatics that can't keep religion in the home and church and out of public schools?

Butch

Butch, the difference is that public school teachers are protected by Constitutional Free Speech/Academic Speech. We need no one to give us the right to teach what we believe fits the curriculum nor to express our own opinions about issues. We have that right going in. Parochial school teachers, not being employed by the state, are not so protected I think unless maybe if their school is receiving federal funds in some form.

There is a big difference between the controversies of Climate Change and that of Evolution/Intelligent Design. There is no religious issue attached to the former while the latter is suffused with an attempt to return religious doctrine to the public schools.

I think the individual teacher can raise the issue of ID in the classroom via her Free Speech rights. On the institutional level, however, requiring teaching the religiously oriented concept raises serious questions of church/state seperation. Sometime different parts of the Constitution can conflict a bit.

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/6/2013 9:09:35 AM

kdsub

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quote:

I think the individual teacher can raise the issue of ID in the classroom via her Free Speech rights

Not and remain employed if they do not follow the schools guidelines. I don't believe teachers in public schools can just teach anything they please.. It would be anarchy.

There are many public Voucher systems for parochial schools and to me they should be held to the same laws applying to public schools and I think if not then perhaps the ACLU may and should have something to say about it.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/6/2013 9:10:19 AM >

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/6/2013 2:40:38 PM

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A private school is a school that someone has chosen to pay for and attend, and most private schools are very up front about what they believe. Good luck to the ACLU for trying to force a private school to violate their own tenets when there is a public school just down the road that the kids could go to. Not gonna happen.

That being said, in most public school courses of study in science, the theory of evolution is to be taught as one of the content standards, so yes, a public school teacher is required to teach it. They aren't required to believe it, but they are required to teach it. I do not think they can lead a discussion of creationism, but I do believe that if students want to discuss the topic among themselves it is allowed (kind of like students can pray in school, but a teacher cannot lead or coerce).

I have to say, all one has to do is go onto the internet and type in their state's name along with state science course of study to know what is required in a public school. If someone is that opposed to their kids' hearing the word evolution, budget so that you can send your kids to private school. And if you don't like Saint John's Episcopal School teaching creation - then don;t send your kids to a religious school. It ain't rocket surgery ;)

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/6/2013 3:09:01 PM

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There is no such thing as a 'private school diploma'. Public, private, or home schooled, the curriculum is based on a minimum set of state requirements.

This new 'alternative theory' dodge is simply another attempt to bear false witness.
When a private school is teaching that science is just a theory, or that black people are cursed by God, or that homosexuality (or cancer) can be prayed away etc. *and requiring students to agree to that in order to pass* and then sending those students out with a *state* diploma, they are cheating employers, colleges, and other parts of society with what is basically false advertising.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

A private school is a school that someone has chosen to pay for and attend, and most private schools are very up front about what they believe. Good luck to the ACLU for trying to force a private school to violate their own tenets when there is a public school just down the road that the kids could go to. Not gonna happen.

That being said, in most public school courses of study in science, the theory of evolution is to be taught as one of the content standards, so yes, a public school teacher is required to teach it. They aren't required to believe it, but they are required to teach it. I do not think they can lead a discussion of creationism, but I do believe that if students want to discuss the topic among themselves it is allowed (kind of like students can pray in school, but a teacher cannot lead or coerce).

I have to say, all one has to do is go onto the internet and type in their state's name along with state science course of study to know what is required in a public school. If someone is that opposed to their kids' hearing the word evolution, budget so that you can send your kids to private school. And if you don't like Saint John's Episcopal School teaching creation - then don;t send your kids to a religious school. It ain't rocket surgery ;)

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/6/2013 4:09:55 PM

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Thankfully I know of no schools (and I have been associated with many) that teach black people are cursed by God or that sin causes cancer. I do know of private schools that teach evolution as a theory (which it is) and teach ID alongside it. And yes, I know of schools where the religiously oriented classes teach that homosexuality is wrong (because they believe the Bible they are based on teaches that). While they could lose their accreditation for not teaching evolution in science and could get some really bad crap for teaching that black people are cursed....like it or not, a Bible based school can legally teach that the Bible says it is wrong to be homosexual. Do I applaud that? No....but no, nobody can make them stop.

And sadly, a lot of these private schools (especially the small church based ones) are not accredited. Or they are accredited by some obscure religious organization....so they are in for a rude shock when they want to go to certain universities. Most universities worth their salt will not accept a diploma from a school that is not accredited. As far as homeschololing goes, that varies from state to state, and while I support the idea of homeschooling and know some people who do it very well.....I shudder when I see some states' standards (or lack thereof). But that is a whole other topic.

< Message edited by cordeliasub -- 2/6/2013 4:10:11 PM >

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/6/2013 5:10:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

quote:

Just wondering...if public schools who teach the science of evolution are required to present the alternative intelligent design...will parochial schools that teach intelligent design be required to present the alternative evolution? Wouldn't that be a kick in the ass to the fanatics that can't keep religion in the home and church and out of public schools?

This^^^ I am a Christian, but it kills me that people don't get this. It's like those people who scream for prayer in schools...do they really think it would just be the prayers they hear at their local baptist church??? If you want your child to believe a certain tenet of faith, then teach it to YOUR child - do not make it a public school's job to do so.

I agree. If you want to teach your kid about religion, take them to church or teach them yourself. When they get college age, if they want to take a religous class that is up to them. Global warming on the other hand has nothing to do with religion and I see no problem with showing both sides and letting them decide what they believe.

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(in reply to cordeliasub)

RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/6/2013 5:17:53 PM

kdsub

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quote:

A private school is a school that someone has chosen to pay for and attend, and most private schools are very up front about what they believe. Good luck to the ACLU for trying to force a private school to violate their own tenets when there is a public school just down the road that the kids could go to. Not gonna happen.

Do a search and see how many private school attendees receive federal vouchers...If they do then the schools should have to follow the same rules applied by governmental agencies to public schools...don't you think...If not then they should not get public tax money.

It would be hypocritical for public elected officials pass laws that apply to public schools while exempting private school’s that receive public money as well.

Butch

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/7/2013 7:01:35 AM

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I don't know...all I know is that it seems hypocritcal to say "keep religion out of everything pubic because of separation of church and state" and then start sniffing around private parochial schools and telling them not to teach things that are religious. And ever private school I know does teach evolution as a theory, so they ARE following curriculum guidelines. They are just also teaching ID/creationism, which IS their right to do as a parochial school. I fully support the idea that a public school is no place to be promoting religion. But I have a real problem with the public trying to dictate what parochial schools or churches do as well. because, well, it's hypocritical. To say, "someone used a voucher so that makes it 'public' so no God/Bible" is....at best suspect and at worst just....well, I won;t say it.

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/7/2013 7:10:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
I do know of private schools that teach evolution as a theory (which it is)...

So's gravity.
This whole "it's just a theory" line, particularly as parroted by fuckwits who don't appear to be aware of the difference between a theory and a fantasy, pisses me off no end.

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/7/2013 7:19:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Yeah, we should fight for the ability to teach our youth BOTH sides of the issue until we gain acceptance for our side of the issue then, we should completely bar the other side from teaching children anything.

I mean, who the fuck wants to give our children as much information as possible and then, let the children decide as they grow into adulthood. What the fuck is wrong with us?

Peace and comfort,

Michael

^5 DITTO 5^

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/7/2013 7:30:05 AM

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I do know the difference between fantasy and theory. And something cannot be called a theory unless there is a good deal of evidence to back it up. For the record, I have no problem with evolution. I think NOT teaching it would be educationally irresponsible.

But feel free to assume since I am not on the "stamp out God bandwagon"

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/7/2013 7:33:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Yeah, we should fight for the ability to teach our youth BOTH sides of the issue until we gain acceptance for our side of the issue then, we should completely bar the other side from teaching children anything.

I mean, who the fuck wants to give our children as much information as possible and then, let the children decide as they grow into adulthood. What the fuck is wrong with us?

Peace and comfort,

Michael

^5 DITTO 5^

Yeah, right. Why don't we still teach the earth is flat, spontaneous generation, earth centric universe, the aether, pudding atoms, and all the other real cool stuff that simply isn't true? And let the children whos brains are still wet cement into their mid twenties decide?

How else will we get new generations of teabaggers?

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/7/2013 9:38:13 AM

kdsub

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quote:

I don't know...all I know is that it seems hypocritcal to say "keep religion out of everything pubic because of separation of church and state" and then start sniffing around private parochial schools and telling them not to teach things that are religious

If this is your wish then you must also agree that duly elected public officials should not mandate, in the name of their God and religion, that their version of creation, with no proof, be forcibly taught in public schools….even if only an alternative to facts.

Many will tell you here in CM I am a believer in the Christian God but I believe that religious doctrine belongs in the church and home and not in public schools where many do not have this belief system.

Public schools should stick to facts with no forced for or against religious doctrine. If the time comes where there are irrefutable facts of the existence of the Christian God then yes it should be taught in school with no legislation mandating it.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/7/2013 9:48:53 AM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/7/2013 2:14:23 PM

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quote:

pudding atoms

What the feck are pudding atoms?

There is a serious gap in my education and I know now that nothing I've ever said, or will say, is balanced.

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/7/2013 2:15:10 PM

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I do agree that creation should not be mandated in public schools. Just like I do not think prayer should be mandated in public schools.

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/7/2013 2:43:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

pudding atoms

What the feck are pudding atoms?

There is a serious gap in my education and I know now that nothing I've ever said, or will say, is balanced.

JJ Thompson (found the electron) and his plum pudding models of atoms, one of yours; old bean. Cavendish Laboratories, Trinity, Cambridge. Rutherford, his student had to sort him out.

But my understanding is that there is a movement afoot to revisit that sort of apparently mesmerizing codswallow, this side of the pond, for christ knows what reason.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 2/7/2013 2:45:15 PM >

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RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/7/2013 2:52:28 PM

kdsub

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quote:

I do agree that creation should not be mandated in public schools. Just like I do not think prayer should be mandated in public schools.

Then you know what I have been ranting against...the bill listed by the OP and proposed in the Missouri legislature:

Missouri's HB 179 and HB 291 target evolution only, with HB 291 requiring, "If scientific theory concerning biological origin is taught in a course of study, biological evolution and biological intelligent design shall be taught

These are elected public officials of the state of Missouri wanting to mandate the teaching of THEIR religious doctrine in our PUBLIC schools. Yet evidently not requiring parochial schools, who receive public tax voucher money, and teach intelligent design to also teach evolution as an alternative.

Can you not see the hypocrisy?

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to cordeliasub)

RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/8/2013 1:55:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

pudding atoms

What the feck are pudding atoms?

There is a serious gap in my education and I know now that nothing I've ever said, or will say, is balanced.

JJ Thompson (found the electron) and his plum pudding models of atoms, one of yours; old bean. Cavendish Laboratories, Trinity, Cambridge. Rutherford, his student had to sort him out.

But my understanding is that there is a movement afoot to revisit that sort of apparently mesmerizing codswallow, this side of the pond, for christ knows what reason.

The Rutherford model did not meet the demands of quantum physics and was modified by the Bohr Model. Actually, didn't meet the demands of moving electrons giving off energy. The electrons should have crashed and collapsed the atom. I don't see how the plum pudding model can be reincarnated after the gold foil experiments disproved it. On the other hand Bohr's model of discreet energy shells seems hard to reconcile with quantum probability or improbability of locating an electron in any one place. Electrons seem to be everywhere at once in the volume around the nucleus. We are left with a graph of a cloud probability for finding the little fucker, which has an extended wave nature. So, go figure. IDK. I welcome any further info without sidetracking the thread.

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: AZ Bill would allow teachers to dismiss global warm... - 2/8/2013 2:07:54 PM

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Not and remain employed if they do not follow the schools guidelines. I don't believe teachers in public schools can just teach anything they please.. It would be anarchy.

So, Butch, suppose a History teacher raised the issue of the Oil embargo the US and UK placed on Japan in the late 1930s and claimed that was a cause of the War in the Pacific. That Japan was forced to attack. Assume it was not in the State curricula. Would you censure or fire that teacher?

(in reply to kdsub)

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