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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

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ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
I do know of private schools that teach evolution as a theory (which it is)...

So's gravity.
This whole "it's just a theory" line, particularly as parroted by fuckwits who don't appear to be aware of the difference between a theory and a fantasy, pisses me off no end.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Lets see.. the lead reviewer for the IPCC says that global warming is a hoax.
Michael Mann admits to falsifying data.
Oh yeah.. and mean temperatures haven't gone up in the last 11 years while global emissions have tripled.

Yeah. maybe thats because global warming *IS* a hoax.

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ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

One of the most important soft skills a good teacher develops is learning to deal with both students and parents who don't agree with them in a tactful manner. More than a few teachers who know their content backwards and forward have lost jobs because they decided to be an ass. I'd probably take the high road (speaking from 15 years' teaching experience here).

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A good teacher will mention Genesis when introducing the subject of evolution, in exactly the same way that they will mention the geocentric theory when introducing astronomy. But there's all the difference in the world between mentioning an older belief in the course of describing what science teaches now, and suggesting that the other belief is of equal scientific validity, which is what IDists want.

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So you can see how the half-educated are left with the idea that "theory" must mean "not proved yet," and assume that's what it means when used by scientists, too.

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I know what the word theory means in science, and I was using it as such

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I know what the word theory means in science, and I was using it as such

Uhmmm . . . my comments were not directed at you, Cordelia

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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So you can see how the half-educated are left with the idea that "theory" must mean "not proved yet," and assume that's what it means when used by scientists, too.

I think "scientific model" is preferable and avoids the problem, although often it is necessary to explain what is meant by 'model.'

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ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

I know what the word theory means in science, and I was using it as such

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I do know of private schools that teach evolution as a theory (which it is)...

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ORIGINAL: leonine

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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So you can see how the half-educated are left with the idea that "theory" must mean "not proved yet," and assume that's what it means when used by scientists, too.

I think "scientific model" is preferable and avoids the problem, although often it is necessary to explain what is meant by 'model.'

But the fact is, we refer to "the Theory of Evolution" because that's what it is called. So until all the textbooks are rewritten to call it "the Scientific Model of Evolution," we're going to have to deal with this misunderstanding.

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ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
One of the biggest complaints I hear about Christians is how they cannot handle it if everyone doesn't agree with them or think they are right - they are intolerant. There are people out there who believe in ID and teach it to their kids. And in our present society...they CAN...even if someone else doesn't agree with it.

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The problem is that Christians are insisting that this bullshit be taught in every public school, regardless who disagrees with it. Which is, in the terms you suggest above, both having their cake and eating it.

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ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

I know what the word theory means in science, and I was using it as such

(Good Lord)

And I agree that if a student is disrupting a lesson, then they should be dealt with according to whatever the classroom management procedures are. I had a student who refused to sing "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" because her daddy told her it was the Union National Anthem (don;t even get me started). I didn't punish her for not singing, but when she started rolling her eyes and making comments to the other students, you bet I did.

There is a difference between a kid with an honest question and a rude kid being disrespectful. The former is fine. The latter is not.

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The Union had a National anthem ?
I suppose that would make Dixie.........

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I meant as a scientific theory. As in, they teach it but they do not say - this is absolute fact proven beyond a shadow of a doubt the end. Yeah, it's a tenuous distinction, but then again I guess it wouldn't make sense for them to say "this is it and we know it beyond a doubt" and then turn around and teach ID. It is hard to articulate exactly what I mean.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I meant as a scientific theory. As in, they teach it but they do not say - this is absolute fact proven beyond a shadow of a doubt the end. Yeah, it's a tenuous distinction, but then again I guess it wouldn't make sense for them to say "this is it and we know it beyond a doubt" and then turn around and teach ID. It is hard to articulate exactly what I mean.

If anything, science is a challenge to absolute truth. A scientific theory is a conclusion or model drawn from all available empirical/mathematical information. The model is acceptable as long as it can make predictions that can be tested in the real world [not on paper] In other words the predictions are able to be falsified. The model is accepted as long as no prediction or observation that arises from it is not wrong.
So, for example, our model of the solar system is heliocentric . . . planets going around the sun and moons going around planets. A prediction would be that we could calculate the orbits of these moving bodies. An additional prediction would be that we could successfully send a craft to the Earth's moon [from one orbiting body to another] If that failed we would have to look into our calculations and into the model. You and I have never seen our solar system yet we have a model of it in our minds that has been verified, or more properly not falsified by testing the predictions.
If the predictions fail the model must be changed.
The word theory is often used in the social sciences to suggest a correlation or a cause and effect between two events which we may never really be able to falsify. Like, what causes crime in urban centers? We can propose answers/theories but they remain difficult to develop predictions that can be tested.
I hope that makes some sense and I apologise if it is overly pedagogical.

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