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RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 4:36:48 AM

MariaB

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I find myself agreeing with TAFKAA.

Forget about the 'expert option' on CM for a moment because its worthless.

We really don't need to be an expert spanker or expert anal slut. All of that stuff is subjective and its more about 'experienced' or not.

When it comes to things such as rope suspension, wax play, piercing play, bull whip play and the sort of play that could clearly put another's life in danger, then surely we need some sort of guidance. The problem is, Jack Flogger will tell me I'm doing it right and Master of the Universe will critizise the way Jack Flogger taught me! Apart from universal precautions, there is no uniform way of teaching and there are no qualification available for any of these things.

Of course it depends on popularity!!. and popularity isn't always gained from showing expertise. This is why there is and always will be some awful workshops with people teaching poor practice.

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(in reply to TAFKAA)

Post #: 61

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 4:44:43 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA

Okay, here's the sad fucking truth LP, but you're really not gonna like it.

Self-evaluated expertise is worth fucking nothing. The term "expert" is only valid in the context of an independent and recognised accreditation body of some kind. There are various psychological rationales behind this (namely that idiots and the inexperienced consistently overrate themselves whereas the intelligent and inexperienced do the opposite) but ultimately what it comes down to is that - like terms in every bdsm relationship - what the term means to you is a purely personal thing.

In other words, your question is on the same level as "What does the word slave really mean?" - there is no answer and all you're doing is looking for validation from an online forum. Your friends will give it to you, your opponents will not, assholes like myself will stomp all over the question and point out its inherently subjective nature.

A debate over semantics is exceptionally unlikely to prove fruitful.

I'm a leather person, Dude. What makes you think I wouldn't like that?

There's a difference between attempting to find a universal definition for a term and discussing what a term means to an individual. You provide an excellent example for this. It's supposed to be a personal thing. Nobody is saying that the definition of "expert" in this sense has to be a universal conclusion. It's more about looking at what each person has for their own criteria.

Not entirely different than asking what the term slave means. I'm sure that you and I have some different nuances about the word and how it relates to M/s. Still, each of us should know what that definition entails should we choose to engage in such a dynamic. When you ask someone what it is that makes them think they are a slave, you do expect them to have some basis to choose the term, don't you?

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(in reply to TAFKAA)

Post #: 62

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 7:08:10 AM

Notsweet

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Accidents never happen?

Ok. Well, I'd let Midori do her 5000th tie on me, recognizing that she's screwed up once in 5000 times. I'd let Pyro Sadist set me on fire for his 1000th time. And I'd recognize that occasionally, there are mistakes, but that someone who has been doing it publicly for years is a lot more likely to have been spotted doing something unsafely and corrected their mistake than somebody no one has heard of.

I need a physicist for that? God help me if I need heart surgery--because I'm gonna go with the doc who's done 5000 of them--not the engineer who built the scalpel.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 63

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 8:41:45 AM

Greta75

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I'm going with, Expert starts with E and so does Enjoy. Thus if there is an Expert beside the activity, it simply means, that person really enjoys doing it.
This works best for me. :)

(in reply to Notsweet)

Post #: 64

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 9:14:33 AM

WinsomeDefiance

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I attended a a class held by midori, and i couldnt care less if she was asked back or considered an expert. I was not impressed and wouldnt let her tie my shoes.
SO, i wouldnt assume anyone presenting was an expert simply because they were popular on the events circuit, although i do hold a few in high regard and with affection.

I dont rmember what i ticked off on my profile, but i am pretty confident i didnt list myself as an expert on anything because i would feel silly doing that.

If i see a bunch of "expert" items listed on a profile, i usually roll my eyes and move on.

(in reply to Greta75)

Post #: 65

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 9:24:23 AM

Notsweet

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Ok, well....if public presentations and public play over the course of 15, 20 years aren't demonstrative of expertise, what is?

No one's an expert unless they're got some sort of "certification" or passes a test?
Who writes the test? Who grades it? Experts?

It's really easy to be an expert in naysaying, I'm thinking.

And anyone who does any of wiitwd thinking that someone NEVER makes mistakes is a nitwit and shouldn't be trusted with soap on a rope, let alone anything else.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Post #: 66

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 9:27:01 AM

mnottertail

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Yeah, it may all be a toss up for me, I can't really sort it out on this one.

Someone says, I am an expert, I have performed over 2400 brain transplants.

My question? How many of them folks are alive?

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(in reply to Notsweet)

Post #: 67

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 9:30:14 AM

Notsweet

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There ya go, MNotter.

Balls still thawed. Sir? <grin>

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 68

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 9:51:05 AM

MariaB

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Notsweet, I hardly ever touch on the subject of rope and suspension on this website because its really not something CM people enjoy widely discussing. I do however have a thread going on in the bondage section at the moment.

Would I trust an artist that has been doing something successfully for 20 years? Well I wish I hadn't but I did and I now have permanent neuropathology in my right arm from a box tie. I didn't know such a thing could happen, nobody warned me. The person who did the box tie is known world wide and hailed as one of the best.

Whilst I accept that in all situations, no matter how controlled and contrived they might be, sometimes things do go wrong. There are two possible modes of failure. One is a material failure and the other is human error. Statistically, for what it matters, material failures where the right material is chosen and used properly, accidents don't happen. I'm using my climbing analogy here. I have climbed more rocks than Madori has suspended people and the only accidents I have had have been caused by my own human error (not paying attention to detail).

In the case of Midori, this was human error and her error put someone else's life at risk. Its unacceptable to brush off the risks and accept that accidents sometimes happen.

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(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 69

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 10:01:39 AM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
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From: Northern New Jersey
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~Fast Reply~

Well, obviously there are differing views on what makes one an expert. The idea that one has presented, taught, etc., while it certainly qualifies one as an expert in something, it is certainly no the only way.

Further, as Greta pointed out, she took it to me it was something she enjoyed immensely.

It would be an awful lot of work to redo the entire interest section, however, it occurs to me that putting an explanation at the top for what each designation means, could be helpful for those trying to determine what level they are at. I would also suggest that for people like LP, a 4th designation be added for those in her position who have gone above and beyond the "normal" expert level, to "presents, teaches and regularly performs demos at the request of hosts for events. I would also remove the designations for things in the categories of "Adventure," "Athletics," "Diversions," "Hobbies," "Intellect," "Lifestyles," "Music," "Spiritual," and "Sports."

I realize that some people will say, "But I AM an expert at x, y, or z. Well, you click on the "love" or "lives for" for something like veganism and in the written part of your profile go into some detail. I put lifestyles into the no experience designation because again, people tend to engage in those activities live them on their terms, there is no "true" way, and again, it helps people have things to go into detail about.

Just a thought. Of course, I'm still waiting for the section here on the board for recipes, so we can guess what that is worth. But for that it is simply removing buttons (not all that difficult, even for me, a non programmer), and writing a little blurb about what constitutes Expert, Average, and Beginner status (much like Kelly Blue book with car's conditions.

(in reply to Notsweet)

Post #: 70

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 11:15:24 AM

WinsomeDefiance

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Notsweet, to be fair, the class i attended that midori presented wasnt regarding bondage. I wasnt impressed with her, because she came to the class she was presenting unprepared and spent the time alloted to her for the class complaining about how she felt she wasnt being fairly compensated for her time, and talking about her fetish wardrobe. I was writing grants for a lifestyle safehouse organization, and the class was billed as a financial workshop. I realize my comment about not letting her tie my shoes gave the wrong impression, and wanted to clarify. I have no idea about her bondage expertise. My impression of her was not positive as a class presentor because i felt she was unprofessional and appeared to be self-absored and petty.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 2/18/2013 11:17:05 AM >

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 71

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 12:13:07 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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Would I allow Midori to tie me up? No. Would I allow any popular bdsm presenter or whatever to do things to me? No. Why? Because they are not in a relationship with me. I don't know them, they don't know me and there's no way that within a few minutes, hours or days they could even begin to know everything about me or me about them.

Would I allow a cardiologist to do surgery on me? It depends. I want to see his degree. I want to see his surgery records. How many deaths? How long ago did he go to college? When was the last time he attended seminars to refresh his techniques that may be new? Yeah, I'm gonna ask tons of questions, and do tons of research. I want to know his track record and what kind of doctor he supposedly is. He may even be the best of the best but if I find out he had one unsuccessful surgery because of something he should have caught then I'm not going to him. I've learned my lesson on trusting physicians without knowing anything about them.

I recently did a small part time job for a local psychologist. He's supposedly one of the best in this area. After working for him I have no idea how that can be true. His office is one of the most disorganized I've ever seen, he lies to his patients which he admits to his employees after the patient has left. He yells at everyone including his patients. His patients walk out in the middle of their session because he calls them names. And some of the stuff I found in his files would shock you. They certainly shocked me and I've worked for other doctors before. An expert? Apparently only maybe from those who don't know anything about him. To me? Hell no!

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Post #: 72

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 1:15:37 PM

Extravagasm

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Joined: 9/22/2004
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quote:

littlewonder: I've learned my lesson on trusting physicians without knowing anything about them.

quote:

littlewonder: An expert? Apparently only maybe from those who don't know

The more people become proactive, the better the 'experts' naturally have to become.

When I needed surgery:
1) Quickly talked to all the nurses I knew in the area. Outside the institutions, they talk straight. And boy do they have opinions.
2) Extensively researched online.
3) Before visiting my Primary Care, I snuck into several seminars given by the surgeons who'd been suggested. One confronted me at the door. I apologized, told him why I was there. Was invited in.
4) After making my decision, only then did I visit my Primary Care Provider and tell him whom to refer me to. (there's no better way to make that intermediate visit, feel worthwhile.)
5) Pleased with results. After all, it's me LOL.

A year later, so certain, I sent a slave friend of mine. Whose Dom happens to BE a surgeon. And they went with my guy. Different operation. And now she's thrilled too.

Sad to hear about that therapist you worked for. Sounds like your cautious criticism described of him here, were more ethical, . than his consideration of his own patients.

Ciao.

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 73

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 1:41:36 PM

RedMagic1

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Thoughts about the Midori conversation:

It's possible to be an expert and not be very good. There's an old joke: "What do you call the guy who graduated at the bottom of his medical school class? Answer: Doctor."

I remember a conversation I had with someone in which I insisted most bondage was edge play, because of the risk of neuropathy. I don't think my opinion is a popular one, but I unfortunately don't see any reason to change it. (Sorry to hear that, MariaB.)

People talk about "a musician's musician," and so on. There are lots of professional comics -- experts. Some are funnier than others, depending on your sense of humor. People like George Carlin are in a different category (even when he was alive). Those are people who are both experts and also extremely skilled.

All it takes to be a professional at something, or to be an expert at something, is to perform it above average (say better than 80% of the population) with tremendous consistency. That consistency is a real skill -- it can take nerves of steel to do something the same, every time, no matter what else is going on in your life. But it doesn't mean an expert is in the top 99%. Just statistically speaking, almost no expert is.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Extravagasm)

Post #: 74

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 2:20:46 PM

Notsweet

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Having been a demo model for a number of presenters, and having had surgery a few times, now I can see that I've just been playing fast and loose with my life.
It's a wonder I haven't been maimed or worse.

Over the (I'm not about to admit to how many) years I've been playing, I've occasionally been hurt. In the many years I've been walking, I've twisted an ankle more than once. Shit happens. I wonder how many people here have fucked something up. Burnt the biscuits? Did you learn anything? Did you change anything?

Did you bake the biscuits in front of an audience over and over and over again, and did damn near everyone I've known at some point watch you bake them over and over again?

At a point, one wonders what sort of play people engage in if they're constantly worried that something, somewhere might go wrong (said the girl who plays with fire).

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 75

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 2:36:33 PM

Missokyst

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LOL I don't even want to think of the things I have done with people who were not expert, or who were expert but did not know me nor I them.

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“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
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(in reply to Notsweet)

Post #: 76

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 2:37:07 PM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Notsweet
Having been a demo model for a number of presenters, and having had surgery a few times, now I can see that I've just been playing fast and loose with my life.
It's a wonder I haven't been maimed or worse.

I don't understand your flippance. A friend of mine died from a liposuction procedure. It was sufficiently bizarre that it made the front page of the local newspaper. The doctor may well have "done nothing wrong." Human bodies are different from one another, and if something has a 1 in 1,000 chance of happening, it is almost certain to happen to somebody if the opportunity occurs several thousand times.

No matter what time of day it is, at some poker game, somewhere in the word, someone is being dealt a royal flush. The odds of it happening to you are super low of course, but the odds of it happening at all approach 100% every second or so, because so many poker hands are dealt, world wide.

That's why it's called Risk-Aware Consensual Kink. If you choose to dismiss the existence of risks through flip comments, it doesn't make the other people on the thread look like the safety police; it makes you look like an ostrich.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Notsweet)

Post #: 77

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 2:49:21 PM

MariaB

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When I have an all out scrap with my man, I don't much think about what could go wrong, though I do get a bit pissy if I get blood on the walls.

When I'm hanging someone in a hook pull suspension I work out how I am going to safely do that without putting my subject at risk. Flesh hooks can rip through the skin like a blade through butter if you haven't worked out the lay of the skin correctly. Rope can break, rigs can fall over, knots can come undone if not tied properly. People can go into shock very quickly and if the tools I use aren't sterile they could get an infection that would hospitalize them, even kill them.
In all the years I have been playing and its been a lot, I have never accidentally hurt someone. Thats not because I'm just lucky, its because every session I do with someone where there is a risk of serious injury to my subject, I take every necessary and informed precaution.
Believe it or not, that doesn't take away the fun.

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(in reply to Notsweet)

Post #: 78

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 3:15:19 PM

Notsweet

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I agree that it's important to look at risk.

I'm saying that if we're all so damned concerned with risk, maybe we shouldn't be doing wiitwd. MariaB, I hope you never make a mistake. But if you do, I hope you'll be kinder and more forgiving to yourself than it seems some people are on here.

RedMagic, all human endeavor involves risk. Since we were talking about who is an expert, and who is not, I've read things that just make no sense to me whatsoever. To any extent, you confirmed what the "dropping suspension" perpetrator (and I) had to say about it, which is that if you do something enough times, eventually it will go wrong.

There are fifty responses here about who's an expert and who's not. Apparently we can agree that no one is an expert on anything, as it can't be proven that they are an expert.

I'll take my chances on the ones who have done it over and over and over in front of people. Everyone else who is waiting for the Infallible, well....good luck with that. But it does make accident victims sound as though they simply cast their fate to the wind. And if a person doesn't do what they do publicly, how the hell you're going to know how well they do it is beyond me, but I'm clearly not as smart as most people arund here. Nor as careful.

(in reply to MariaB)

Post #: 79

RE: Expert designations - 2/18/2013 4:22:15 PM

LafayetteLady

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From: Northern New Jersey
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I agree that there is no way that anyone can positively make sure nothing will go wrong. You can only do your best, but accidents can happen even when everything was done correctly. Human nature isn't perfect.

As for how you can tell whether someone is an expert or not if they don't play in public places, well...I don't play in public places, and am not likely to get involved with someone who is involved in those types of events. However, I also do not do things like fire play, needle play, suspension, shibari, and anything people would consider "edge" play, so being the much milder (ok, maybe boring) player, expertise is not quite as much of an issue for me. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm thinking that often, those who don't attend munches, play parties and the like probably aren't doing a lot of those things either, but I could be wrong on that. I only know for sure that I don't.

(in reply to Notsweet)

Post #: 80

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