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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/19/2013 7:35:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Same here.

The only scenario I've been able to conjure up, that to me could be considered "slavery", is if a person develops an emotional or mental tie to another person that is so strong, that they would be unable to leave that person, no matter what.

That opens up even more questions....

Lastly-- nice font, OP.

This is so close to My personal definition of internal enslavement. The only thing that I hinge on is the "no matter what" part.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
As lauren and the bunny said, fuck adjusting. You be what you are. Words matter, but your life, your experiences, your loves, and your joy, they matter too, and imo, they matter more.

I'm all for the "fuck adjusting" bit. If I honestly thought somebody was more qualified to run My dynamic, I'd probably be doing it their way already.

You have to admit though, the way people write about what these words mean to them, in their relationships, really can be beautiful.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/19/2013 8:37:45 AM

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Slavery in the term of BDSM does not hold the same definition to me as slavery outside of it or in the history books.

It is a choice to engage or commit to it until you do, then there is no choice.
Slaves outside of BDSM in history were sold off, their mental welfare was rarely if ever considered, unless they had a wise and kind master, who was smart enough to know, a happier slave makes for a more productive slave., they didn't chose to be slaves, it was forced on them.

To me once a slave seriously commits to a master, they have zero choices, and that means even leaving. If the master choses it then ok, but once a slave, the choice to even leave is not your own.

Realistically they can, but the commitment was never real or ready to be made if they use their own will.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/19/2013 9:04:25 AM

Level

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Agreed, LP; whether I disagree with someone's terminology or not, that doesn't stop me from learning from, or admiring what they're doing.

The "no matter what" part is where my mind is at, but I'm open to the thoughts of others

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/19/2013 11:57:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSkyee

Actual slavery is still pretty widespread in certain parts of the worldand is abhorrent and not all that erotic to the enslaved from what they are saying at the Human Rights commission.
"Today, while there are numerous legal and academic definitions of slavery, the most important thing is to focus on the lived experiences of slaves. When a situation of extreme exploitation is examined, it is important to ask: "Can this person walk away? Are they under violent control?"
Here's a link to where the quote is from ...
http://www.endslaverynow.com/?goto=defining_slavery§ion=resources&gclid=CMOo7KzPwbUCFUsdpQodHm8AbQ

I don't call myself a slave, because I feel like it's disrespectful to those people that are really suffering around the world, often horribly so.

I mean, if he ordered me to call myself a slave, well, of course I would - but I wouldn't really be comfortable with it. Fortunately, he doesn't care about labels. He cares that I obey and submit. If I refused to do something he ordered, there would be consequences. I feel like if somebody could just say no whenever, is that really submitting? I wouldn't be satisfied with that.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/20/2013 12:09:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Yup, but I believe that "consensual slavery" is an oxymoron and isn't really slavery.

That's very closed minded and ignorant thinking. So I've heard.

Really? Where on earth did you hear that? I think you're confused (again).

OsideGirl has agreed that it's accepted that in speaking of slavery that we are referring to consensual slavery as opposed to nonconsensual slavery - Showing that she's not ignorant about the topic.

She does not seek to attack or belittle those that disagree with her. So sure, I'd be happy to have a respectful, grown up conversation with her to see if I could convince her to the usefulness and value of the term in the context of some relationships. And I'm pretty certain that we'd both benefit from the discussion, and that neither of us would need to behave like fuckwads.

Actually, if you were able to see the distinction between her take and yours, you'd benefit considerably.

Bless your heart!

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/20/2013 8:34:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu
I don't call myself a slave, because I feel like it's disrespectful to those people that are really suffering around the world, often horribly so.

That's very much how I feel.

In North San Diego County, the authorities found a "prostitution camp" under an overpass. It was full of girls between the ages of 12 and 14 that had been kidnapped from Mexico. They were brought here to provide cheap sex for the migrant (illegal) workers.

I happened to be close enough to see some of those girls faces while they were being led to ambulances. At the moment I came to the realization that I could not call what we do "slavery".

Master would tell you that I'm his slave, but he understands the "why" and respects my feelings on the subject.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/20/2013 11:05:06 AM

xssve

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I can understand that VP, I think I said as much a long time ago in a marathon thread on taxonomical semantics; on the other hand it is a sort of empathy and identification, it can be difficult to distinguish from monasticism or asceticism, but that doesn't sound as sexy, unless it's like a martyrdom fetish, or you got a latex habit handy or something. I'd call it lifestyle slavery, but somebody probably jump me for using he word lifestyle.

I think we all should be able to choose our own form of suffering, even if it means allowing someone else to choose it for us, but I do believe that you should have the choice.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/20/2013 6:48:31 PM

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quote:

You have to admit though, the way people write about what these words mean to them, in their relationships, really can be beautiful.

I agree, Lady Pact, which is the reason why I began this thread to gain different perspectives on the topic.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/20/2013 7:06:09 PM

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quote:

In North San Diego County, the authorities found a "prostitution camp" under an overpass. It was full of girls between the ages of 12 and 14 that had been kidnapped from Mexico. They were brought here to provide cheap sex for the migrant (illegal) workers.

I happened to be close enough to see some of those girls faces while they were being led to ambulances. At the moment I came to the realization that I could not call what we do "slavery".

This way of thinking is exactly why I find it hard to reconcile myself to the idea of self-idenitfying as a slave, and why I hoped to hear from those who do self-identify as slaves as to how they are able to reconcile the term for themselves. While the term "slave" as some have discussed has had varying connotations at different times in history and different places, we generally understand and use a term in the our own present time and context...otherwise there would be a lot of misunderstanding.

So I guess my question for those who self-identify as slaves is how they are able to reconcile their use of the term with the unfortunate reality that Oside described?

Thank you to everyone for sharing their views.

< Message edited by AislynLass -- 2/20/2013 7:21:00 PM >

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/20/2013 7:43:29 PM

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I guess for me I don't see the word "slave" as meaning those who are held in prostitution rings and such. The word "slave" means something entirely to me.

I'm a Christian. I believe in God. I call myself a servant to God, thus God's slave. It's voluntary. My life revolves around not only pleasing Master but also God.

There was also a time when many different cultures held that when a person could not pay their debts, they could voluntarily enslave themselves to that person for an amount of time to pay off their debts, or to become a citizen. This still goes on today in many societies and for me it's not something I concern myself with.

At one time and still in many places, getting married means you become a slave to each other or the woman to the man. Personally I find marriage to be the ultimate form of slavery and something I would honor highly because of that view that works for me.

When I hear and see the slavery of abduction and being forced to sell yourself sexually, I don't call that slavery. I call that simply abduction and abuse.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/20/2013 8:50:06 PM

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Pretty much how I saw it and why I never wanted to remarry though I have been asked a time or two.
I totally agree with the statement that the other sort of slavery of being kidnap and abuse.
Slavery through history has had many different incarnations, some of which were voluntary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

At one time and still in many places, getting married means you become a slave to each other or the woman to the man. Personally I find marriage to be the ultimate form of slavery

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/20/2013 8:55:16 PM

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whereas I would love to be married for that one exact reason.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/21/2013 7:08:44 AM

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I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your perspective, Little Wonder. I was hoping to learn from viewpoints such as your own. I'm still working out my own feelings on the subject. I do relate to much of what you've expressed and I feel in some ways I have a slave's heart, but I also see the very good point that Oside makes, so it is something of a dichotomy for me to reconcile for myself. But hearing various viewpoints does give me good food for thought and consideration.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/21/2013 10:11:05 AM

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I call myself a slave because I believe what Master and I have is Internal Enslavement. This is a very different kind of slavery than those poor girls mentioned in a previous post.

But the English language is a beautiful, complex and varied thing. One word can have different meanings. In this case, if you'll excuse the Mills and Boon fluffery, I consider myself a slave of the soul, and one who willingly gave up her freedom to the man she loves.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/21/2013 3:09:43 PM

xssve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass

In the context of WIIWD, isn't it accepted that in speaking of slavery that we are referring to consensual slavery as opposed to nonconsensual slavery?

Yup, but I believe that "consensual slavery" is an oxymoron and isn't really slavery.

It is actually closer to the Latin servus, which is the post Imperial formulation, albeit feudal serfs were probably as bad off or worse than Roman slaves in many situations, hard to say, but it is a distinct concept that effectively skirts the whole ownership issue linguistically, all are servus to god, from the pope on down, it's sort of a rudimentary theological move towards rule of law.

As I think I've mentioned before, consensual slavery to me signifies either a very deep level of commitment to a specific person or persons, or conversely, a deep commitment to being something like an interchangeable part - I see both, but there is a very large distinction, even in abstract, between the two insofar as the terms of a PE dynamic that should be observed to avoid confusion.

< Message edited by xssve -- 2/21/2013 3:10:10 PM >

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/21/2013 5:12:26 PM

xssve

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Servus derives from The Great Chain of Being (GCOB), and is an abstraction of tribal values scaled to civilization, the basic unit of civilization being civis roughly translatable to "citizen", and it implies some obligation on the part of the citizen to the state regardless of tribal identity.

GCOB is still very hierarchical, and it still exerts a powerful influence over modern political economy, from it we derive many of our ideas about hierarchical relationships of all types, including gender roles, albeit, there was an increasing awareness that the state also has obligations to the citizen (rights), that it's not a one way street, and this trend reaches it's current optimal ideal in the constitution of the United States, in which all the political power of the state is derived by consensus of it's citizens.

The state possessing, among other things, the monopoly on violence, consensus is the only reliable way to assure that justice will eventually prevail, since we are all equally vulnerable, and among other things, the consensus is that slavery is unjust is the result.

All of which has nothing explicitly to do with consensual, internal, or lifestyle slavery, whatever you want to call it, which is a ranges from various GCOB type constructs, to some interesting varieties of postmodern asceticism, as well as a lot of plain old kink, but is, overall, basically ad hoc.

Legally I think the words "slave" and "slavery" themselves have been somewhat depreciated in legal language in favor of "human trafficking", and "human trafficking victim", and most of the emphasis here is placed on monetary gain from labor gained through force, without compensation - forced labor.

i.e., you might say you could be a slave without being a victim of human trafficking, but you can't be a victim of human trafficking without being slave.

Lol - how's that for semantic gymnastics?

< Message edited by xssve -- 2/21/2013 5:14:23 PM >

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/21/2013 7:16:09 PM

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Just sitting here thinking of the term "slave" and am reminded that Master and I joke that I have a "right" to the term slave because I have Slavic blood. Slavic came from the word slave. Plus I have female ancestors that are listed in the census as being paid servants.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/22/2013 7:02:45 AM

bearbottomsubbie

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The ownership and property thing is the best part of slavery.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/23/2013 7:28:17 AM

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Carol applies that word to herself because I told her it was the right word. Carol sees herself as owned property rather than a free woman because that's what I told her to do. Carol's self-identification (in this area) is what I tell her it is.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 2/23/2013 7:30:44 AM >

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/23/2013 10:26:23 AM

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Hate to dump on anyone's parade, BUT (and you knew there was a but coming, right?) anyone who suggests that they are a "real" slave are kidding themselves. Real slavery is rather illegal in most industrialized nations. Unless you are chained to your computer and have no way to get up and leave, you are not a real slave.

There is nothing wrong with having a mindset that you have no choices. The fact remains that you chose to have no choices. Your choosing is an act of power. Even if it is a decision to surrender your power.

People who are truly slaves have no choices. They have zero power. Their fate, welfare, even their lives are dictated by people who have power over them. There is nothing wrong with using the term slave in the BDSM setting. Just acknowledge that the word has a very, very different meaning to someone who has truly been enslaved.

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