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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/23/2013 11:04:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt
Hate to dump on anyone's parade, BUT (and you knew there was a but coming, right?) anyone who suggests that they are a "real" slave are kidding themselves. Real slavery is rather illegal in most industrialized nations. Unless you are chained to your computer and have no way to get up and leave, you are not a real slave.

That's neat and all. But perhaps you could show us which definition you are using for "real slavery" and why any of the other fully approved by Websters & Oxford yada yada definitions are not valid.

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(in reply to Dyfrynt)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/23/2013 12:28:20 PM

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People can use the words they like. I don't use slave although in a relationship I can feel very like that, simply because I'm a bit of an English language purist and also I think I need more a feeling of mutual love and almost equality which may sound a bit strange in a D/s relationship, but needs to be there, but it may be nuance that doesn't matter.

(in reply to JeffBC)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 12:45:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt

Hate to dump on anyone's parade, BUT (and you knew there was a but coming, right?) anyone who suggests that they are a "real" slave are kidding themselves. Real slavery is rather illegal in most industrialized nations. Unless you are chained to your computer and have no way to get up and leave, you are not a real slave.

There is nothing wrong with having a mindset that you have no choices. The fact remains that you chose to have no choices. Your choosing is an act of power. Even if it is a decision to surrender your power.

People who are truly slaves have no choices. They have zero power. Their fate, welfare, even their lives are dictated by people who have power over them. There is nothing wrong with using the term slave in the BDSM setting. Just acknowledge that the word has a very, very different meaning to someone who has truly been enslaved.

Do what someone tells you to do or be killed or physically harmed does not equate to having no choices or no power.
Which is why some purchased/abducted slaves elect to die.
Or escape.
Or fight back.
Which are choices, which come from power.

What is this limited idea of - 'Choosing is an act of power. Choosing to not choose is an act of power.' ?
All human beings who are awake, aware, and cognizant make choices.
The difficulty of your choice, the limited ability to make the choice into one that you would enjoy, does not make it any more or less of a choice.

And (again) the definition of 'slave' has nothing to do with powerlessness.
The dictionary definition of 'slave' is as follows.

1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.

The dictionary definition itself says that we can be slave to a substance.
Cocaine isn't holding someone up in a camp at gunpoint, telling them that if they don't work harder that they will be lashed.

Being entirely under the dominion of something is only relating to powerlessness when you are under that dominion against your wishes.
If you are under that dominion within your wishes, you may do so with the full extent of your human power.
And, like how the definition says nothing about powerlessness, it also says nothing about acting against one's wishes.

I don't believe anyone has a problem acknowledging that someone who has genuinely been abducted/purchased and violently persuaded to act against their wishes may not appreciate the term 'slave' being applied to someone in a less abusive situation.

But that alone cannot be a good reason for us to avoid usage of a word that is accurate for a state of being that applies elsewhere.

If we are going to begin only reserving usages of words for the most 'sensitive' instances of those words.
Then I have a few words, off the top of my head, that we should avoid using.

'Rape' should not be wives who are forcibly used by their husbands against their will.
'Rape' should be not be applied to oral sex nor applied to victims who were drugged or unconscious.
Because women who are the victims of violent, penetrating sex with strangers have a very different meaning for that word.
And it wouldn't be fair to them if we called these other circumstances by the same word that is applied to them.

'Bravery' should be a word not permitted to anyone leading anything of a mundane life.
Standing up to a power-hungry boss who makes his employees miserable should not be considered brave.
A frightened older brother checking a closet in a dark bedroom for a monster so his younger brother can sleep isn't brave.
'Bravery' should only apply to extreme life-threatening situations in which the 'brave' subject is almost certain to die and is terrified out of their mind.
Because calling anything less than that brave would be a misappropriation of the word.

Being understanding and sympathetic of the terrible reality that purchased/abducted slaves live is one entirely appropriate thing.
Acting as if they redefine the term of slavery by their mere existence, however, ignoring all other circumstances that are equally real and equally applicable under the definition is not appropriate.

(in reply to Dyfrynt)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 5:22:35 AM

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To me, the kind of slavery I am seeking is consensual up to the point of the chains going on. Up to that point, I am in a position to negotiate the arrangement and to agree or disagree the terms, which may be enshrined in a contract. But since I am looking primarily for a fairly extreme form of slavery, then once the chains are on, I will ideally have no way out, even if I wished for it. Nor any further control over what happens or does not happen between myself and my owner. Obviously, looking for something like this does mean that I need to be reasonably selective about the kind of person or persons into whose ownership I am willing to give myself. But ultimately, I am looking for the closest thing possible to the inescapable form which genuine slavery originally took. I appreciate this isn't a legalised form, and for the owners sake there is also the need for great care. But all it takes is two or more people who can agree this is what they want, and go with it.

(in reply to theSwan)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 6:40:58 AM

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quote:

Do what someone tells you to do or be killed or physically harmed does not equate to having no choices or no power.
Which is why some purchased/abducted slaves elect to die.
Or escape.
Or fight back.
Which are choices, which come from power.

I thought you had some good points in your posts such as the portion where you discuss rape. However, to try to equate a non-consensual slave not to choosing to die to escape his or her slavery with the same level of choice that a person who chooses to be a s in a BDSM or D/s relationship in our society today, is a specious argument in my opinion. Even though this probably was not your intention, it belittles in a way the horrific nature of that slavery by attempting to put not wanting to die or even having the means to escape on the level with persons in a consensual relationship.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 8:03:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: theSwan

1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.

The dictionary definition itself says that we can be slave to a substance.

In a BDSM situation, a person has the right to end their situation. To no longer be enslaved. So one is not actually "entirely" under the domination of another.

I don't believe it's an issue of being forced to enter into slavery, abducted, etc...versus entering willingly. It's an issue of...can one get out?

Now, whether that person has the mental or emotional capacity to leave is another story. And not something I would consider to be slavery in a M/s sense because there are all sorts of relationships out there that have nothing to do with BDSM in which one party feels mentally or emotionally unable or unwilling to leave.

(in reply to theSwan)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 9:29:39 AM

xssve

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Absolutely. I think at it's best, self identification as a slave signifies a level of devotion that had to be legally enforced in marriage under the old regime, "better or worse, till death do us part", that's mostly lip music anymore when it comes to marriage itself.

Not to say calling it submissive, or whatever indicates any lesser degree of commitment, but calling it "low self esteem" is so off the mark as to be ludicrous.

Not saying there are not women or men in the lifestyle with low self esteem, nobody's perfect, but self identifying as a slave is not the first signifier I would be looking for if I were looking for that, which a lot of wannabe dom's figure out very quickly.

In some sense, it's almost a claim of unqualified value, in humility, rather than an indication of feelings of worthlessness.

A person who has feelings of worthlessness and acts accordingly, we are more to call a "doormat", even if it may be a somewhat apocryphal term itself, i.e., most people who find themselves being treated that way are inclined to exit at the earliest opportunity and chalk it up to experience, those that stick around are probably deep masochists.

So, by the same token, I don't really equate self identification as a slave with masochism - it's whole different trip even if it happens to be found in conjunction occasionally.

< Message edited by xssve -- 2/24/2013 9:30:11 AM >

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 9:52:21 AM

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This is one of those topics that I have never completely understood because...well, does everyone's definition HAVE to be exactly the same? And I guess it's just me....but I don't HAVE to be right, and I don;t think everyone else has to use MY definition of something. I remember a discussion in an etymology class about how limited the English language is. I mean, we have one word for love and the Greeks had at least three, etc. I am not a genius or anything, but even I can understand the distinction between what littlewonder means when she said she was a slave and what happened in the US prior to the civil war. Is it really a big federal case if the words are the same? If someone doesn't like to call themselves slaves because of the "legal" definition....then don't. Why does it matter if other people do? I guess I am just a live and let live person.

I think it would take me a long time and a lot of trust to self-identify as a slave in the BDSM context, mainly because I still consider myself new with a lot to learn, and I am not sure I could be a very good one - that stubborn streak still needs some work at times

but I do not feel "less than" because I identify as a submissive at this time. To me, they are just different, not better/worse.

(in reply to xssve)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 10:07:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

Is it really a big federal case if the words are the same? If someone doesn't like to call themselves slaves because of the "legal" definition....then don't. Why does it matter if other people do? I guess I am just a live and let live person.

I think many of us are. But this is a discussion forum. Hence, the discussion.

(in reply to cordeliasub)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 10:24:56 AM

xssve

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Well, the danger I don't think is to us: when we hear the word slave being used in the lifestyle sense we immediately make the distinction, the danger is for someone outside the lifestyle who mistakes human trafficking for lifestyle d/s, or is using it as camouflage/justification for human trafficking.

As in everything, once one becomes injured to the various complexities and externalities of this, experienced, it becomes easy to forget there is a perpetual population of people just beginning to discover their sexuality, some of whom land here unintentionally.

It's quite entertaining sometimes to watch some innocent wander into this nest of vipers, but I like to think there are some kind of standards discussions worthy of effort, it's not complete anarchy.

And as far as discussion worthy topics go, this one is perpetual, I've seen at least a dozen iterations in this forum alone, almost all marathons, and I expect I'll see it again sooner rather than later.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 10:59:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass
I agree, Lady Pact, which is the reason why I began this thread to gain different perspectives on the topic.

And yet, not only did I fail to see this remark and be courteous enough to respond to you comment promptly, I completely missed doing so, Myself. You'll have to forgive Me on that. Sometimes, I get so used to people already being aware of our personal story that I forget that not everyone does.

Truth be told, clip hasn't always identified as a slave. That came some time after I collared him. It was right for us to change our terminology to M/s for a few reasons. One of those being that My authority, power, and control over his life increased significantly. This isn't to say that I don't think there are some folks out there who favor the D/s term don't have the same level as ours. Part of it is My personal line in the sand about how we evolved.

I don't know if you had the opportunity to read the link provided by Resident Sadist, but I honestly see internal enslavement as a real phenomenon. I particularly watched in in clip's case. My ownership of him is very much a part of who he is now.

While I admit to skimming some of the responses in this thread so I may have missed it if someone else mentioned it, there is also something I would like to throw out there. Certain cultures under this big umbrella of wiitwd don't really tend to use the submissive label. The two that spring immediately to mind would be the leather culture (of which I personally identify) and Gorean. (Please note that not all M/s dynamics are particularly a part of either culture.) Neither of which you see the M type introducing themselves and then saying "this is My submissive" to introduce the person collared to them. We leather folks tend to be protocol and traditionally oriented, so we're used to a particular form of terminology. This is not to say that we disrespect the terms that others choose. It means that, as leather people, it is a part of who we are.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 12:01:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt
Hate to dump on anyone's parade, BUT (and you knew there was a but coming, right?) anyone who suggests that they are a "real" slave are kidding themselves. Real slavery is rather illegal in most industrialized nations. Unless you are chained to your computer and have no way to get up and leave, you are not a real slave.

That's neat and all. But perhaps you could show us which definition you are using for "real slavery" and why any of the other fully approved by Websters & Oxford yada yada definitions are not valid.

Surely we can agree that someone choosing to be a partner in a BDSM relationship has no similarity to someone who is abducted, forced into some form of servitude, has no choice but to do as they are told, and lives at the whim of their owner. That is the only point I was attempting, however ineffectually, to make.

To theSwan,

You said "The difficulty of your choice, the limited ability to make the choice into one that you would enjoy, does not make it any more or less of a choice."

Seriously? I'm sure you didn't mean to have it to sound that way it reads. It comes across as a naive understanding of the plight of people around the world who are slaves against their will. I cannot believe you mean to suggest that attempting to choose not to obey knowing you will get the crap beat out of you, or worse is in any way a "choice".

You also said "I don't believe anyone has a problem acknowledging that someone who has genuinely been abducted/purchased and violently persuaded to act against their wishes may not appreciate the term 'slave' being applied to someone in a less abusive situation."

No disagreement there. I said the very same in my first post. I.E: "There is nothing wrong with using the term slave in the BDSM setting. Just acknowledge that the word has a very, very different meaning to someone who has truly been enslaved. (i.e. completely against their will)"

(in reply to JeffBC)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 2:47:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu
I don't call myself a slave, because I feel like it's disrespectful to those people that are really suffering around the world, often horribly so.

This is very much how I feel about it. There is true slavery. and there is role play. It may be serious relationship role play for those involved, but it is role play. If you are free to leave the relationship, it's not slavery. You have free will, you are not a "slave" in the truest sense of the word.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 5:02:01 PM

xssve

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...which is why we need a legal definition, to distinguish between true and twue.

I have no doubt people consensually live under conditions something very much like actual slavery, and I think it really matters very little whether they are able to leave, experience does not simply evaporate when conditions change, but unless they did not give their consent to participate, "real" and "true" are still subjective adjectives here, basically, it's only objectively true if it's prosecutable.

The whole cult of authenticity thing gets tedious real quick as you may soon discover, I don't think anybody in here is "fake", just different ideas about what they want or need, but I'm not going to argue about it anymore lest some idiot/s take it as a dare.

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 6:37:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt
Surely we can agree that someone choosing to be a partner in a BDSM relationship has no similarity to someone who is abducted, forced into some form of servitude, has no choice but to do as they are told, and lives at the whim of their owner. That is the only point I was attempting, however ineffectually, to make.

Ah yes... on that we can agree. In point of fact I sincerely doubt that anyone but a tiny handful of internet fantasy folks would attempt to make any such claim. It's interesting sometimes to note what parallels there may be but in the end it's very much a horse of a different stripe... even between Carol and I were I question things like "consent". But in the end she's wrapped up in a hugely loving relationship not being exploited as cheap labor.

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(in reply to Dyfrynt)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 7:20:28 PM

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It's not cheap.

It's free.

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Everything has changed

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RE: Why A Slave? - 2/24/2013 9:23:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass

quote:

Do what someone tells you to do or be killed or physically harmed does not equate to having no choices or no power.
Which is why some purchased/abducted slaves elect to die.
Or escape.
Or fight back.
Which are choices, which come from power.

I thought you had some good points in your posts such as the portion where you discuss rape. However, to try to equate a non-consensual slave not to choosing to die to escape his or her slavery with the same level of choice that a person who chooses to be a s in a BDSM or D/s relationship in our society today, is a specious argument in my opinion. Even though this probably was not your intention, it belittles in a way the horrific nature of that slavery by attempting to put not wanting to die or even having the means to escape on the level with persons in a consensual relationship.

If you'd like to call 'level' of choice to mean quantity of choices or options towards choices that one would desire.
Then no, the level of choice I possess is not the level of choice one of these people possesses.

But 'level of choice' no more defines a Slave than color of bark or number of leaves defines a tree.

I do not believe that referring to myself as a slave, nor referring to a drug addict as a slave, belittles anyone in any situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: theSwan

1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.

The dictionary definition itself says that we can be slave to a substance.

In a BDSM situation, a person has the right to end their situation. To no longer be enslaved. So one is not actually "entirely" under the domination of another.

I don't believe it's an issue of being forced to enter into slavery, abducted, etc...versus entering willingly. It's an issue of...can one get out?

Now, whether that person has the mental or emotional capacity to leave is another story. And not something I would consider to be slavery in a M/s sense because there are all sorts of relationships out there that have nothing to do with BDSM in which one party feels mentally or emotionally unable or unwilling to leave.

Back to the original statement - Everyone has a right to end any situation.
Those who are abducted/forced can get out.
Whether that be escape or death.

And I would argue that the more insulting, less helpful stance is to tell anyone that they are powerless.
To every African-American slave that climbed north during slavery in America, they demonstrated they had power and choice.
Child slaves in Africa drafted into militias who escape have proven that they have power and choice.
People who elect to die rather than be cattle prove that they have power and choice.

As much as it is 'insensitive' to consider these people to have power and choice.
I consider it as much an insult to their status and existence as human beings to say to them that they have no power and no choice.
A multitude of choices which do not end pleasantly does not equal having no choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Well, the danger I don't think is to us: when we hear the word slave being used in the lifestyle sense we immediately make the distinction, the danger is for someone outside the lifestyle who mistakes human trafficking for lifestyle d/s, or is using it as camouflage/justification for human trafficking.

Ah, this brought up a useful point.
I would never casually throw the word 'slave' around with most people because most people do not recognize the state of existence that is in BDSM.
I expect differently of people here, to make a different and more enlightened logical conclusion, because they have seen how power can be exchanged in a willing and non-violent fashion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt
Hate to dump on anyone's parade, BUT (and you knew there was a but coming, right?) anyone who suggests that they are a "real" slave are kidding themselves. Real slavery is rather illegal in most industrialized nations. Unless you are chained to your computer and have no way to get up and leave, you are not a real slave.

That's neat and all. But perhaps you could show us which definition you are using for "real slavery" and why any of the other fully approved by Websters & Oxford yada yada definitions are not valid.

Surely we can agree that someone choosing to be a partner in a BDSM relationship has no similarity to someone who is abducted, forced into some form of servitude, has no choice but to do as they are told, and lives at the whim of their owner. That is the only point I was attempting, however ineffectually, to make.

To theSwan,

You said "The difficulty of your choice, the limited ability to make the choice into one that you would enjoy, does not make it any more or less of a choice."

Seriously? I'm sure you didn't mean to have it to sound that way it reads. It comes across as a naive understanding of the plight of people around the world who are slaves against their will. I cannot believe you mean to suggest that attempting to choose not to obey knowing you will get the crap beat out of you, or worse is in any way a "choice".

You also said "I don't believe anyone has a problem acknowledging that someone who has genuinely been abducted/purchased and violently persuaded to act against their wishes may not appreciate the term 'slave' being applied to someone in a less abusive situation."

No disagreement there. I said the very same in my first post. I.E: "There is nothing wrong with using the term slave in the BDSM setting. Just acknowledge that the word has a very, very different meaning to someone who has truly been enslaved. (i.e. completely against their will)"

To the part not addressed to me.
I agree with you and Jeff.
No one is claiming that a slave serving in line with their own desires is anything like slaves who are forced to perform against their will due to threats.
The problem here is the statement that the word 'slave' defines more than just being forced to perform against your will.

For the part you wrote to me.

Can you identify a bad choice as still, a choice?

I recognized what you said - What I wrote was to acknowledge that I do recognize that people are emotional about this subject and I recognize the right of someone who has suffered to be emotional and need recognition.

However, any amount of suffering or need does not change the truth.
Get shot if you go through Door A or get shot if you go through Door B is still a choice.
Choices are not only things you wish to choose.

And as mentioned in my earlier reply, there have been abducted/purchased slaves whom have demonstrated their power and ability to choose.
To reference these people as powerless and choice-less may seem understanding and compassionate, but I see it differently.

The definition of slavery is independent of any concept of powerlessness, as it is independent of any concept of acting against your will.

Edit: Saw something else very worth replying to.

< Message edited by theSwan -- 2/24/2013 9:27:44 PM >

(in reply to AislynLass)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 1:19:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
To me a sub has choices. A slave does not except the choice to leave and even that isn't always technically true. If you read my response in that thread, Master and I are M/s. I am his slave. I don't have choices. I don't get to say "yes" or "no". I simply obey. If I don't then I am disciplined. Can I just walk away? Yes I could. Would he hunt me down? Most likely. He's not just gonna let go of something we have worked hard at for the past 7 years.

I love this dynamic M/s dynamic as explained.

Besides, I rather like the dictionary definitions of these words, because I find they suitably describe my needs/desires. Slave, as defined below, is as good a word as any, in describing where I hope to be one day, in a situations where we both define words that adhere to my relationship style. My lifestyle in the end.

quote:

1slave
1: a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence

I know this is simplistic, but it suits me perfectly, and I tend to not want to complicate things further for myself, as there are so may other things in this world which are complicated, and require more from me. M

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(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 3:44:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu
I don't call myself a slave, because I feel like it's disrespectful to those people that are really suffering around the world, often horribly so.

This is very much how I feel about it. There is true slavery. and there is role play. It may be serious relationship role play for those involved, but it is role play. If you are free to leave the relationship, it's not slavery. You have free will, you are not a "slave" in the truest sense of the word.

As for the quoted 'true slavery'
Yes, they do have free will.
If you asked them would they like to leave, they wouldn't choose to stay.
They just can't exercise it.
But that doesn't mean they don't have free will.

As for role play in the M/s sense, some situations are role play.
Some are a concious decision based on trust.
No better or worse than submission, just a different choice.

(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 7:19:29 AM

xssve

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The real sticky point here, and it doesn't just concern slave identification (I once suggested the word Thrall "instead" which means about the same thing without the negative connotations), is the reluctance of some to call this "play", the whole cult of authenticity, and my argument there is that calling it a game means nothing if the stakes are real - poker is a "game" too, but you can still lose your ass.

For that matter, one could gamble away a consensual slave in a poker game, if that were covered in the original consent, and it still isn't going to fit well into a legal definition of slavery, unless money is exchanging hands as well - if so, then you would indeed conform to the legal definition of human trafficking, even if it were consensual - unless the person whose body is being valued monetarily can demonstrate they are gaining something in the exchange.

It's lot harder to put a price on an experience - a lot of submissive do have these fantasies, slave auctions, hobby whores, etc., which fit the definition of human trafficking but it's often the idea of the "property" to begin with and they have sought out this situation, because they desire to experience it.

So, while it then becomes a much more technical legal question, in order to fully conform to the definition of human trafficking it has to involve exploitation - in this case, the act of being exploited has value to the exploited, and pushes the question even beyond the issue of escapability, and into higher level of abstraction.

Consent, by it's nature, implies the consentee has the expectation of receiving some kind of value from the exchange, there are such things as binding contracts even if this one is not legally enforceable - and they are still granting, in this case, the use of their body, which is pretty damn real, regardless of whether what they are consenting to is game in which their body is the football.

Thus at bare minimum, to enter freely into consensual slavery and living up to the model requires that the slave act honorably, and you can't force honor.

Personally, making it a role actually clears a lot of things up for me, I would expect you to develop and employ all your art, and play it to the hilt to the limits of your ability. It could get very real.

< Message edited by xssve -- 2/25/2013 7:21:00 AM >

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Walking nightmare...

(in reply to Toysinbabeland)

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