RE: Why A Slave?

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: Why A Slave?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Why A Slave?

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 7:57:45 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

Now, whether that person has the mental or emotional capacity to leave is another story. And not something I would consider to be slavery in a M/s sense because there are all sorts of relationships out there that have nothing to do with BDSM in which one party feels mentally or emotionally unable or unwilling to leave.

Kinda backtracking here, but this was a central issue in one of the earliest post emancipation proclamation SCOTUS cases concerning human trafficking, forgot the name of the case I'll look it up.

But yeah, there is no shortage or hard choices and de facto inextricable situations when it comes to life in general, we are actually privileged to the extent we can sit here and debate it from the armchair so to speak.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to Kaliko)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 8:04:54 AM

Posts: 295
Joined: 5/27/2004
Status: offline

Why should we even discuss consentual vs nonconsentual slavery. What we are talking about is legal vs illegal. It is illegal to own a slave in a nonconsentual situation in the US. However the consentual style is one where both want the relationship without the legal entanglement of nonconsentual. As both want it and can eave it, it is no differsnt than those that believed marriage was for life. Now it is something to jump into or out of as often as you want because that is what the law allows.

(in reply to xssve)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 8:07:53 AM

Posts: 1693
Joined: 3/4/2012
From: the other end of Cx's leash
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

The real sticky point here, and it doesn't just concern slave identification (I once suggested the word Thrall "instead" which means about the same thing without the negative connotations), is the reluctance of some to call this "play", the whole cult of authenticity, and my argument there is that calling it a game means nothing if the stakes are real - poker is a "game" too, but you can still lose your ass.

.

Love that .

(in reply to xssve)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 8:40:32 AM

Posts: 202
Joined: 4/19/2011
Status: offline

Toys said
"As for the quoted 'true slavery'
Yes, they do have free will.
If you asked them would they like to leave, they wouldn't choose to stay.
They just can't exercise it.
But that doesn't mean they don't have free will."

Methinks there an issue with your syllogism here.

1. If asked whether they wished to stay, they would not stay.
2. But they are not permitted to exercise their desire.
3. That doesn't mean they don't have free will".

Maybe I am missing something here. If one has a desire to do something and are denied the opportunity to choose that desire, by definition they are lacking free will.

p.s. Clever avatar name there. Appropriate and fun!

To: theSwan. You said:
"The definition of slavery is independent of any concept of powerlessness, as it is independent of any concept of acting against your will."

I find myself in the position of being hoisted by my own petard! As usually I am a strong advocate of the importance of dictionary definitions. I need to rethink that position. Why? Because there is a difference, a monstrous difference, between the dictionary definition and the reality of people thrown into slavery against their will. It would be interesting, and perhaps enlightening, if we were somehow allowed to ask these folks (and if they were allowed to give an honest answer without fear of reprisal) what they think of your conclusion that, by definition, they have choices.

(in reply to Toysinbabeland)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 9:16:59 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

Forgot to post this, lol.

Clearly, controlling for the escapability variable and adding experiential value makes the whole thing so nebulous as to baffle legal minds for the next century at least, all you have to fall back on here is consent, which implies at least, escapability - insofar as the contract is enforceable, it's the slave who enforces it - and if the servitude is real, then it's as real as it can get, legal definitions are rendered moot, and the "real" question, w/respect to the legal definition becomes a Red Herring.

To the secular world however, you're just a kinky freak, and secular law is under the obligation to maintain a definition of labor exploitation, which you should probably familiarize yourself with in case you find yourself involved in it, whether on a jury or whatever.

So that brings it all back to OsideGirl's objection on the ground that it trivializes actual human trafficking, specifically, the victims of it, to which I assume most of us are sensitive.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to xssve)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 9:25:05 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

The real sticky point here, and it doesn't just concern slave identification (I once suggested the word Thrall "instead" which means about the same thing without the negative connotations), is the reluctance of some to call this "play", the whole cult of authenticity, and my argument there is that calling it a game means nothing if the stakes are real - poker is a "game" too, but you can still lose your ass.

.

Love that .

Literally, huh? Lol.

Anyway, that was actually a recent SCOTUS case, 1988, which is notable for it's relatively exhaustive definition of "involuntary servitude" if anybody is interested.

quote:

"Involuntary servitude consists of two terms.

"Involuntary means `done contrary to or without choice' - `compulsory' - `not subject to control of the will.' [487 U.S. 931, 937]

"Servitude means `[a] condition in which a person lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life' - `slavery' - `the state of being subject to a master.'

"Involuntary servitude involves a condition of having some of the incidents of slavery.

"It may include situations in which persons are forced to return to employment by law.

"It may also include persons who are physically restrained by guards from leaving employment.

"It may also include situations involving either physical and other coercion, or a combination thereof, used to detain persons in employment.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=487&invol=931

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to Toysinbabeland)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 9:29:25 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

I believe in this case it was determined that the servitude was voluntary, even though the plaintiffs were considered below normal mental capacity, and the defendants were convicted of lesser labor law violations and fined.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to xssve)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 9:40:16 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrj69

Why should we even discuss consentual vs nonconsentual slavery. What we are talking about is legal vs illegal. It is illegal to own a slave in a nonconsentual situation in the US. However the consentual style is one where both want the relationship without the legal entanglement of nonconsentual. As both want it and can eave it, it is no differsnt than those that believed marriage was for life. Now it is something to jump into or out of as often as you want because that is what the law allows.

True, what you say is essentially beyond dispute - we are, unfortunately, actually disputing a couple of more nebulous issue: what constitutes a "true" slave, in the context of a consensual act, which some people engaged in BDSM have invested with a great deal of subjective value to the point of attempting to create and/or impose objective standards, and secondarily, in this quest to establish the trueness of self-servitude within in the BDSM lifestyle, are the actual victims of involuntary servitude and thus the greater consensus meaning of consensual servitude trivialized by the use of the word slave?

Enter at your own peril, lol.

The original topic however, was I believe, "why would you want to be one"?

I better go look.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to mstrj69)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 10:08:07 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

A bit of synchronicity, I caught a Chappelle bit yesterday, When Keeping it Real Goes Wrong - the moral of the story being: "When keeping it real, always be wary of those keepin' it realer", lol.

For my part, if you are in voluntary servitude, it's as real as involuntary servitude, whether you call yourself a slave, sub, or whatever - the fact that you can theoretically exit the relationship is somewhat irrelevant, once you exit you are no longer in servitude - the main difference being those in involuntary servitude are presumably more motivated to escape.

The caveat is that an actual involuntary victim of human trafficking may either empathize or scoff, I can't control that.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to xssve)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 10:16:01 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

Final note, as you may or may not know, the relevant case currently w/respect to BDSM is U.S. v. Marcus.

Keepin' it real yo.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to xssve)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 11:36:14 AM

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

So maybe we should start using the terms vassal or villein, serf, varlet or servant.

Would that be more comfortable to those who don't like the term "slave"?

Maybe I'll start using the term "villein".

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to xssve)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 4:14:37 PM

Kana

Posts: 6671
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline

I've always been kinda partial to vassal.
Varlet is for when she's bad.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 4:36:56 PM

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

My personal favorite is "minion". After all, doesn't everyone need loyal minions to do their evil bidding?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Kana)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 6:01:45 PM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

Dissembling harlot? Oh wait, that's my ex again.

I think if I were heavily into the slavery thing, I'd probably try to go more by the classical model, for women, sort of the top of the pile would be Hetaera, which is something akin to a Geisha, but I would have to say, all things being equal, I probably prefer something a little more intimate.

I think the BDSM style is probably closer to the classical model in Europe, in America, it's usually a more monogamous model of feminine deference, almost Puritan, the Blackstone model you might say, and I think it's fairly ingrained in the culture at large.

So while I respect that deference, and like it a lot, it makes me feel very protective, I think it's good to remember that a lot of women fought very hard for a long time to get things to the point where you can do that because you want to, not because you have to, so I'm kinda fond of brassy old broads too.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to JeffBC)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 8:40:34 PM

Posts: 1163
Joined: 9/29/2007
Status: offline

for me my choice is slave and it is in the lifestyle definition of slave as obey or leave, furthermore i become internaly enslaved to my Mistress. i choose this as it fullfills my being of serving. i did not know when i was starting that i was service oriented but as i learned more about the lifestyle the more i knew that i was suited to it. when i first started on my journey i was only looking for a play partner when i was transfered to fort gordon. i met LadyPact and have gone from a play partner to Her sub and then to Her Slave.

_____________________________

proud to serve the awsome
LadyPact

(in reply to Level)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/25/2013 10:36:39 PM

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

The easy answer is, yes. Most do understand what you are referring to. Only those that have not experienced it, seen it or understand the psychological elements will deny it. Those that post those types of links, just look at their posting history and ask yourself if they have actually added much positive to discussions, or do they just seem to throw derogatory remarks and troll for arguments.

It is rather quite simple. You have different forms of slavery, and some will scream that only chattel slavery is the weal and twue slavery.

Looking at the second definition listed on dictionary.com (or most dictionary sites):

"a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person."

There it is. Does not require a BDSM stamp of approval, does not require those involved to even know what BDSM is. It is a relationship where by the submissive personality is dominated to the extent that they are internally compelled to follow the directives given.

People can muddy the waters, pull our psych issues, etc. but it exists, it is real and it is not good or bad, it depends on those involved.

People use the term consensual slavery, and so people disagree to that term, but if you describe the relationship itself they often do not disagree that it is possible and happens.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AislynLass

In the context of WIIWD, isn't it accepted that in speaking of slavery that we are referring to consensual slavery as opposed to nonconsensual slavery? That in this context a slave chooses her Master or he chooses his Mistress and not involuntary servitude as referred to in the link that Stef posted?

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to AislynLass)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/26/2013 6:42:22 AM

Posts: 48
Joined: 11/12/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

So maybe we should start using the terms vassal or villein, serf, varlet or servant.

Would that be more comfortable to those who don't like the term "slave"?

Maybe I'll start using the term "villein".

Nothing like a little variety to keep our words in poetry. -Smiles-
I like the words 'servant' and 'vassal'.
And imagining someone defining themselves as a 'villein' (which I can only hear as 'villain') in regards to their position of servitude, makes me smile.

xssve, I enjoyed the research points you brought up. Some nice Googling came out of that.

quote:

ORIGINAL : dyfrynt

To: theSwan. You said:
"The definition of slavery is independent of any concept of powerlessness, as it is independent of any concept of acting against your will."

I find myself in the position of being hoisted by my own petard! As usually I am a strong advocate of the importance of dictionary definitions. I need to rethink that position. Why? Because there is a difference, a monstrous difference, between the dictionary definition and the reality of people thrown into slavery against their will. It would be interesting, and perhaps enlightening, if we were somehow allowed to ask these folks (and if they were allowed to give an honest answer without fear of reprisal) what they think of your conclusion that, by definition, they have choices.

I'm wondering how to phrase this in such a way that best expresses my opinion.
People who are abducted/kidnapped slaves do fit the definition of a slave.
But this is one of those "All squares are quadrilaterals. Not all quadrilaterals are squares."

Just because these abducted/kidnapped slaves are squares (square applying to their status as violently abducted/enforced)
And thus quadrilaterals - slaves, as they are in a position in which they are under the dominion of another person.
It doesn't mean that other instances of slavery (rectangles).
Cannot also be quadrilaterals.

Does it trivialize victims of violent rape if we use the word 'rape' to discuss non-violent rape, such as performed through drugging or sedation?
Or do we trivialize heroes by calling this nine year-old girl a hero for bringing more excellent school lunches to her school through her online advocacy (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/16/world/europe/girl-9-gives-school-lunch-failing-grade.html?_r=0)?

My point is that the word 'slave' is open enough to encompass a long variety of existences.
It was not reserved for horrible acts of human trafficking.
Historically, it has also had reference in willing acts of slavery.
People once voluntarily surrendered themselves into slavery.
And they were known as slaves.

So, why should the current global act of slavery monopolize the definition when other states of being are properly defined by the word?
If you were at a dog show and the proper word for defining a female dog was a 'bitch', would you refrain from that word because some people find the word, by nature, offensive, due to its relevancy in mass society?
The relevance of the word 'slave' in mass society is something horrible but that doesn't mean that the word isn't appropriate and fitting in circles where people understand what the other meanings of the word are.

I recognize the cultural sensitivity in this issue.
But I also recognize the truth.
And if someone were to ask me to lie for the sake of cultural sensitivity, I would say no.

I am under the dominion of someone else.
I am the property and wholly subject to someone else.
Thus, I am a slave.
I recognize that other people are under the dominion of those they wish not to service.
I recognize that other people are property against their wishes.
I recognize that they are suffering.

But their suffering doesn't change the historical institution of slavery nor the intention behind the word.
It seems to me that the more appropriate solution would be to divide the word 'slave' into the concepts of 'within ones wishes' and 'against ones wishes'.

However, we don't yet live in a world where people can acknowledge the idea of electing to live under the dominion of someone else within your wishes.
Thus the conversation of creating two individual concepts like that can't really start on a mass scale.

--

I'm pretty sure that no one who is the victim of human trafficking would appreciate me telling them that they have choices.
But that doesn't mean it isn't true.
There are many situations in which people don't appreciate being told the truth.

People in those situations have exercised their power of choice.
That's why we have escaped victims of human trafficking who can share their stories.
That's why we hear about people dying rather than surrendering.

If those people were not making choices, what were they doing?

(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/26/2013 7:17:10 AM

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
So maybe we should start using the terms vassal or villein, serf, varlet or servant.

Would that be more comfortable to those who don't like the term "slave"?

Maybe I'll start using the term "villein".

Most of those, I find, don't roll off the tongue, to the non connoisseur (moi), except maybe for servant. I might start laughing at my self uncontrollably, if I ever called my other, a vassal.

As to whether I'd be guilty of a crime or two, when in my element, with a great sub/slave, I have no doubt. I try to keep my relationships out of the court system, generally. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 2/26/2013 7:19:17 AM >

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/26/2013 8:51:13 AM

Posts: 202
Joined: 4/19/2011
Status: offline

theSwan said "It seems to me that the more appropriate solution would be to divide the word 'slave' into the concepts of 'within ones wishes' and 'against ones wishes'.

I agree that this terminology is the best solution to the definition issue. At least within the BDSM community. SO much better than trying to come up with alternate terms for slave, which mostly makes us feel silly.

However, we don't yet live in a world where people can acknowledge the idea of electing to live under the dominion of someone else within your wishes.
Thus the conversation of creating two individual concepts like that can't really start on a mass scale. "

Well some of us can! lol. But yes we are a minority, and mostly, what's that phrase? In the closet about the facts that define our relationships.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

RE: Why A Slave? - 2/26/2013 9:09:04 AM

Posts: 81
Joined: 5/21/2010
Status: offline

1. "slavegirl" is a sexier term than "partner in a consenual relationship of non-consent". Really it's just that simple.
2. submissive is who I am in relationship to most alpha males --- it does not indicate any kind of power exchange has occured, it simply indicates a relationship type, but not an actual exchange or any interaction that cedes one or all of the 2 specific powers of body, behavior and attitude. It is sort of like potential energy versus kinetic energy.
3. a slave is one who has relinguished control of one or all of the the three sepcific powers; body, behavior and attitude.

LTMorrisons books, the Devil in the Details, Vol I has the most clearly explained logic and philosophy for guiding a slave through that awkward period where she is label focused, which in the end means nothing and drains her energy. You are what you Master deems you are. His label is the only one a slave should concern herself with. Unless master says she should not even concern herself with that.

(in reply to Level)

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Why A Slave?

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2024

Terms of Service

6.500