RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 6:32:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

lol ya must know that poll waz debunked as being total bs

Actually, only the headline was updated:

Survey: Most Israeli Jews wouldn't give Palestinians vote if West Bank was annexed

Survey, conducted by Dialog on the eve of Rosh Hashanah, exposes anti-Arab, ultra-nationalist views espoused by a majority of Israeli Jews.

Even granting the change from "apartheid," I'm not sure that's much of an improvement. Too, your source has bias written all over it, whining about the journalist's speaking tour being "sponsored by Anti-Zionists." Well fuck, Zionists brand anybody who disagrees with them an "Anti-Zionist". So what? And you neglected to mention other findings of the alternative study you linked.

On one issue there is agreement between Jewish and Arab citizens in Israel – the desire to integrate the Arabs into Israeli society while maintaining a certain separation between the two population groups. Among Jewish citizens, 59 percent expressed support for living separately (in other words, in separate communities or neighborhoods), but with equal status.

Separate but equal? Ahem. No champagne. And, it gets worse...

Most of the Jewish citizens of Israel see the Jewish identity of the country as axiomatic; for them that is its essence and the justification for its existence. Therefore, the clearest, most solid and most inflexible barrier to full equality is the unwillingness of the Jewish citizens to give up the Jewish character of the country, in terms of its identity and of control over it... The Jewish citizens expect the Arab citizens to accept their situation as a minority and refrain from attempting to achieve full equality on the national and symbolic level.

I think "apartheid" is a wasted argument, but debunking it will take more than you've got here.

K.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 7:34:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
lol ya must know that poll waz debunked as being total bs

Actually, only the headline was updated:

Survey: Most Israeli Jews wouldn't give Palestinians vote if West Bank was annexed

yup just tha headline but surely a big difference between ‘Most Israelis support an apartheid regime in Israel,’ to " “Survey: Most Israeli Jews wouldn’t give Palestinians vote if West Bank was annexed”. plus in another article gideon levy admitted that he made mistakes but tried ta justfy them. point was by the debunkers that the majority didnt even wanta take tha West Bank besides other things. http://honestreporting.com/haaretz-creates-non-existent-apartheid-state/

quote:

Even granting the change from "apartheid," I'm not sure that's much of an improvement. Too, your source has bias written all over it, whining about the journalist's speaking tour being "sponsored by Anti-Zionists." Well fuck, Zionists brand anybody who disagrees with them an "Anti-Zionist". So what?

if a journo who is supposed ta be impartial is given tha red carpet treatment all over tha world by pally supporters its odd but yeah not enough ta dismiss his views on that score.

quote:

And you neglected to mention other findings of the alternative study you linked.

On one issue there is agreement between Jewish and Arab citizens in Israel – the desire to integrate the Arabs into Israeli society while maintaining a certain separation between the two population groups. Among Jewish citizens, 59 percent expressed support for living separately (in other words, in separate communities or neighborhoods), but with equal status.

Separate but equal? Ahem. No champagne.

i didnt read tha whole report but here both groups were of tha same view. perhaps it was ta maintain their cultural & educatonal distinction but not be isolated coz the next line says

quote:

Neither group is interested in integration when it comes to housing and schooling, but as mentioned, they do expect integration into economic and social life. Both groups want to maintain separate frameworks, while at the same time reducing inequality.


quote:

And, it gets worse..
Most of the Jewish citizens of Israel see the Jewish identity of the country as axiomatic; for them that is its essence and the justification for its existence. Therefore, the clearest, most solid and most inflexible barrier to full equality is the unwillingness of the Jewish citizens to give up the Jewish character of the country, in terms of its identity and of control over it... The Jewish citizens expect the Arab citizens to accept their situation as a minority and refrain from attempting to achieve full equality on the national and symbolic level.

thats an old argument that i support coz tha jews of the ME were persecuted & expelled til just a few decades ago. if all waz hunky dory in tha muz ME then i would agree wit ya.

quote:

I think "apartheid" is a wasted argument, but debunking it will take more than you've got here.

had a few links ta excellent refutations saved when arguing bout the before. see if i can find them later.



farglebargle -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 8:03:51 AM)

Let's just stop using the word Apartheid, and call it what it is.

UNDEMOCRATIC.

"One Man, One Vote" Everything else is horseshit.



vincentML -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 9:43:01 AM)

quote:

ever hear that most arabs wanna stay in Israel instaed of a pally state? loadsa polls by independent folks over tha years prove they do. kinda makes a nonsense of tha whole apratheid bs dont ya thunk?

What bullshit! You have documentation for that LIE? Of course you don't.

And your repeated remark that I put any value on ancient history except to refute Ken's argument is also a bullshit LIE.

My position has always been: the Arabs were in place; the Zionists pushed them out.



DomKen -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 11:02:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ever hear that most arabs wanna stay in Israel instaed of a pally state? loadsa polls by independent folks over tha years prove they do. kinda makes a nonsense of tha whole apratheid bs dont ya thunk?

What bullshit! You have documentation for that LIE? Of course you don't.

And your repeated remark that I put any value on ancient history except to refute Ken's argument is also a bullshit LIE.

My position has always been: the Arabs were in place; the Zionists pushed them out.

Really? Who paid for the wells that allowed the population to expand? When and by whom was Tel Aviv founded?

At least learn a little of the actual history.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 11:54:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ever hear that most arabs wanna stay in Israel instaed of a pally state? loadsa polls by independent folks over tha years prove they do. kinda makes a nonsense of tha whole apratheid bs dont ya thunk?

What bullshit! You have documentation for that LIE? Of course you don't.

And your repeated remark that I put any value on ancient history except to refute Ken's argument is also a bullshit LIE.

My position has always been: the Arabs were in place; the Zionists pushed them out.

nah man i dont have documentation for "that LIE" coz it aint one. just do a googley search for words like "arabs want to stay in israel" & loadsa articles citing studies & surveys will come up. Heres a famous one from Pechter showing most arabs in jerusalem wanna stay in israel given tha choice of being in a pally state http://pechterpolls.com/?p=317

hey man ya really need ta do some exercses ta chillax. lol I'm not gonna get into any flaming wars even if you & tweaks want it different. ya denied jews were indigenous to tha region loadsa times on tha other thread. ya brought up ancient history & rightly ya got a bad ole time from ken. ya already rewrite ME history dont try ta rewrite history on cm too. [8|]



Kirata -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 12:05:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

Heres a famous one from Pechter showing most arabs in jerusalem wanna stay in israel given tha choice of being in a pally state

Q17 If a permanent, two state solution is able to be worked out, would you prefer to become a citizen of Palestine, with all of the rights and privileges of other citizens of Palestine, or would you prefer to become a citizen of Israel, with althe rights and privileges of other citizens of Israel?
[image]local://upfiles/235229/E628375E0FEA418CAAE8EB388DDCA0BB.jpg[/image]

I think you may have an unusual notion of what "most" means.

K.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 12:23:38 PM)

well a majority but tha no answers made it ambiguous. still doesnt fit tha picture of arabs being treated like in south africa.

tha big finding discussed when it came out was only 25% would leave their part of jerusalem if it became israeli & 40% said they would move ta israel if their part became palestinian (with less saying they wouldnt move in a pally state) http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=203350 or page 28/29 of tha report. reckon that backs tha point up.



vincentML -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 3:14:35 PM)

quote:

hey man ya really need ta do some exercses ta chillax. lol I'm not gonna get into any flaming wars even if you & tweaks want it different. ya denied jews were indigenous to tha region loadsa times on tha other thread. ya brought up ancient history & rightly ya got a bad ole time from ken. ya already rewrite ME history dont try ta rewrite history on cm too.

Denying that Jews are the indigenous people of Palestine has nothing to do with ancient history. It has to do with the United Nations working definitions of "indigenous" which I cited in the other thread.

Bringing out an inconclusive survey of preferences of Arabs in Jerusalem says absolutely nothing about what MOST Palestinians want. MOST Palestinians do not live in Jerusalem. The way things are going there will probably be NO Palestinians in Jerusalem soon enough, imo.

I think you do not have a clue what MOST means.



Powergamz1 -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 3:19:38 PM)

Note that apartheid is a constructed agit-prop word, for what was effectively ghettoization... The policy was another take on treating indigenous people as subhuman, and deserving of less human rights than the oppressors.

"Segregation" is such an active word that it suggests someone is trying to segregate someone else. So the word "apartheid" was introduced. Now it has such a stench in the nostrils of the world, they are referring to "autogenous development." [Alan Paton, "New York Times," Oct. 24, 1960]

Once the SA police started routinely and publicly putting burning tires around the necks of helpless people of another race, the original intent of creating the word was pretty much gone.

So today we have some similar official Israeli separatist policy, that treats people of the same race, albeit a different label, as subhumans in many ways... while trying to avoid the PR negativity when possible.

That doesn't mean that the game played with the water sources, the official blind eye to some segments of settler violence, and so forth deserves to be dignified with a euphemism.

It'll do until real Apartheid comes along.



vincentML -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 3:20:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ever hear that most arabs wanna stay in Israel instaed of a pally state? loadsa polls by independent folks over tha years prove they do. kinda makes a nonsense of tha whole apratheid bs dont ya thunk?

What bullshit! You have documentation for that LIE? Of course you don't.

And your repeated remark that I put any value on ancient history except to refute Ken's argument is also a bullshit LIE.

My position has always been: the Arabs were in place; the Zionists pushed them out.

Really? Who paid for the wells that allowed the population to expand? When and by whom was Tel Aviv founded?

At least learn a little of the actual history.

What does the founding of Tel Aviv have to do with the population of Palestine at the onset of the Zionist movement? The Arabs were the major polulation in Palestine at the founding of Tel Aviv in 1909. Your remarks have nothing to do with the main point of the OP as far as I can see.



Kirata -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 3:21:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

tha big finding discussed when it came out was only 25% would leave their part of jerusalem if it became israeli & 40% said they would move ta israel if their part became palestinian (with less saying they wouldnt move in a pally state) http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=203350 or page 28/29 of tha report. reckon that backs tha point up.

I reckon not. Maybe you should look at the concerns motivating the answers. They're in the report too.

K.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 6:38:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

hey man ya really need ta do some exercses ta chillax. lol I'm not gonna get into any flaming wars even if you & tweaks want it different. ya denied jews were indigenous to tha region loadsa times on tha other thread. ya brought up ancient history & rightly ya got a bad ole time from ken. ya already rewrite ME history dont try ta rewrite history on cm too.

Denying that Jews are the indigenous people of Palestine has nothing to do with ancient history. It has to do with the United Nations working definitions of "indigenous" which I cited in the other thread.

lol ken handed yer ass to ya on that point too. about jews being tha indigenous folks not having anything ta do with history, do ya live on some sorta plain where 1+1=568767? [8|]

quote:

Bringing out an inconclusive survey of preferences of Arabs in Jerusalem says absolutely nothing about what MOST Palestinians want. MOST Palestinians do not live in Jerusalem. The way things are going there will probably be NO Palestinians in Jerusalem soon enough, imo.

I think you do not have a clue what MOST means.

though k's concerns are noted, it wasn't inconclusive coz most that expressed a view wanted to stay within israel & of those that wanted ta move, most wanted ta move to israel.

yer concern bout it being only jerusalem is noted though so heres another poll from harvard http://www.hks.harvard.edu/news-events/news/press-releases/coexistence-in-israel-study where most arab folks surveyed prefer ta live in israel to other states, plus similar findings to tha other poll i posted bout there being good will expressed by a jewish majority

quote:

A great majority of both Jewish citizens (73%) and Arab citizens (94%) want Israel to be a society in which Arab and Jewish citizens have mutual respect and equal opportunities.

• 68% of Jewish citizens support teaching conversational Arabic in Jewish schools to help bring Arab and Jewish citizens together.

• 77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world.

• More than two-thirds of Jewish citizens (69%) believe contributing to coexistence is a personal responsibility; a majority (58%) of Jewish citizens also support cabinet level action.

• Arab citizens and Jewish citizens both underestimate their communities’ liking of the “other.”

• Urgent action on coexistence in Israel is desired: 66% of Jewish citizens and 84% of Arab citizens believe the Israeli government investments should begin now, and not wait until the end of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.



tweakabelle -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/25/2013 10:00:56 PM)

For all the quibbles about the meaning of the term 'apartheid', here's how the Oxford Dictionary defines the term:
apartheid
noun
[mass noun] historical
(in South Africa) a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.
segregation on grounds other than race:
sexual apartheid
Adopted as a slogan in the 1948 election by the successful Afrikaner National Party, apartheid extended and institutionalized existing racial segregation. Despite rioting and terrorism at home and isolation abroad from the 1960s onwards, the white regime maintained the apartheid system with only minor relaxation until February 1991
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/apartheid?q=apartheid

The key here is obviously "a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race". Is there any one out there stupid enough to deny that "a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race" is in operation in the West Bank, indeed all of Israeli ruled lands? Presumably there isn't - even Netanyahoo admits systematic discrimination against Arabs in Israel.

Therefore, as it seems to be agreed by all parties that "a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race" is in place in Israel, Israel qualifies as an apartheid State. In deference to Kirata, Israel also practices ethnic cleansing (and has done so since Day 1 and even previous to the formation of the Israeli State by Zionist forces) as has been documented on these boards on numerous occasions.



Kirata -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/26/2013 12:46:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
quote:

ORIGINAL: VincentML

Denying that Jews are the indigenous people of Palestine has nothing to do with ancient history. It has to do with the United Nations working definitions of "indigenous" which I cited in the other thread.

lol ken handed yer ass to ya on that point too.

I don't know how the UN defines "indigenous," but I'm pretty clear on its English meaning. And in the discussion that I recall, whose ass got handed to whom on this point is a matter of perception on which we would differ.

K.



vincentML -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/26/2013 10:43:10 AM)

quote:

yer concern bout it being only jerusalem is noted though so heres another poll from harvard http://www.hks.harvard.edu/news-events/news/press-releases/coexistence-in-israel-study where most arab folks surveyed prefer ta live in israel to other states, plus similar findings to tha other poll i posted bout there being good will expressed by a jewish majority

This survey was conducted with Arab citizens already living in Israel who presumably have property interests, jobs, and settled families. The results are hardly surprising. This survey does not represent the sentiments of the Arabs living under apartheid occupation in the West Bank.

Once again you demonstrate you do not know the meaning of the phrase "most Arabs prefer."

How freakin lame.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/26/2013 11:25:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
MOST Palestinians do not live in Jerusalem. The way things are going there will probably be NO Palestinians in Jerusalem soon enough, imo.

lol i would like ta see you prove that coz tha arab population is growing in jerusalem faster than tha jewish population.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

lol ken handed yer ass to ya on that point too. about jews being tha indigenous folks not having anything ta do with history, do ya live on some sorta plain where 1+1=568767?

Insults from a cartoon [8|]

buddy thats way better than all your insults eminating' from a blank space. [8|]



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/26/2013 11:32:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

yer concern bout it being only jerusalem is noted though so heres another poll from harvard http://www.hks.harvard.edu/news-events/news/press-releases/coexistence-in-israel-study where most arab folks surveyed prefer ta live in israel to other states, plus similar findings to tha other poll i posted bout there being good will expressed by a jewish majority

This survey was conducted with Arab citizens already living in Israel who presumably have property interests, jobs, and settled families. The results are hardly surprising. This survey does not represent the sentiments of the Arabs living under apartheid occupation in the West Bank.

Once again you demonstrate you do not know the meaning of the phrase "most Arabs prefer."

How freakin lame.

lol i didnt misconstrue tha results, just you twisting them. i said that tha survey shows how more than 3/4 of arabs prefer ta live in israel than any other place & wouldnt move given tha opportunity even though arabs are supposed ta be pretty mobile round tha ME. tha point was to refute your big grandoise claims bout how badly there threated.

ya may recollect how loadsa israeli arabs flipped out a few yrs back when it was suggested some majority arab areas be transferred ta the new pally state plus loadsa polls prove tha same thng like http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=37364
quote:

Remain Israeli citizens 62% Join a future Palestinian State 14% No opinion or refused to answer 24%


there was also a big increase in arabs seeking israeli citizenship http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3407/palestinians-israeli-citizenship lol you should be pleased with tha good news but keep digging yerself inta a hole if ya wanta buddy. [X(]



vincentML -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/26/2013 11:37:02 AM)

quote:

lol i didnt misconstrue tha results, just you twisting them. i said that tha survey shows how more than 3/4 of arabs prefer ta live in israel than any other place & wouldnt move given tha opportunity even though arabs are pretty mobile round tha ME. that was to refute you claiming theyre treated badly.

But you strawman the topic raised in the OP about apartheid in the occupied territories. The topic of this thread has nothing to do with Arabs living in Israel. No one claimed apartheid in Israel.

Just more asswipe rambling and distortion from a cartoon. [8|]



VideoAdminChi -> RE: "Israel is an apartheid State": Israeli official (2/27/2013 5:07:43 AM)

FR,

A number of posts from this thread have been removed. Please return to the topic and do not make other posters the topic.



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