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Does America need another war to stimulate the economy? - 4/17/2013 11:22:30 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		America needs a new war? For the economy to survive? Job market to revive? Capitalism thrive? Maybe. Here’s why:

Forbes reported that GDP data “fell for the first time in three and a half years in the fourth quarter ... declining by an annualized 0.1%” while “economists had expected GDP to increase 1%. A dramatic 15% drop in government spending dragged on economic activity. Defense outlays were cut the most, falling by 22.2%, the largest decrease in defense since the Vietnam War’s end in 1972.”

Wars stimulate the economy and we are a warrior nation: Didn’t WWII get us out of the Great Depression? And the Iraq/Afghan Wars, longest in history, sure stimulated the economy ... the Pentagon war machine doubled from $260 billion in 2000 to roughly $550 billion last year ... GDP increased 50% from $10 trillion to $15 trillion ... and federal debt tripled to over $15 trillion from under $5 trillion back when our leaders believed “debt didn’t matter.”

However, with the Afghan and Iraq Wars winding down, capitalism needs an economic stimulus: a new war. It’s so American: Neocons believe a new war would boost GDP. They must be praying North Korea’s Lil’ Kim will do something impulsive. Give us an excuse.

Yet Washington politicians are conflicted. Some want to shrink government, cut debt and are cheering the “dramatic 15% drop in government spending.” On the other hand, the “largest decrease in defense since the Vietnam War’s end in 1972” is unnerving neocons, warhawks and politicians heavily dependent on defense contractors, lobbyists and voters at military bases in their districts.

So what’s next? If American capitalism needs a new war to survive ... if we’re slowing down the Afghan and Iraq war theaters ... if North Korea’s just saber-rattling ... if China has too much to lose ... if new wars are fought by drones from video screens in one of the Pentagon’s 70 drone bases ... but if all the military-industrial complex capitalists who get rich off wars are still itching to attack ... then who will trigger a new war for America’s “disaster capitalists?”

[Your thoughts???]
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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 11:26:09 AM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		While I agree that wars can stimulate the economy, this appears to be an argument for economic growth to be a sound reason for war and that has got to be the most stupid fucking idea I have ever heard.

As someone who's been against America, building empire for many years and who has lost a child to one of these bullshit wars, This author needs to shut the fuck up or get a few of his buddies and go invade Idaho or some shit.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 11:30:56 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

While I agree that wars can stimulate the economy, this appears to be an argument for economic growth to be a sound reason for war and that has got to be the most stupid fucking idea I have ever heard.

As someone who's been against America, building empire for many years and who has lost a child to one of these bullshit wars, This author needs to shut the fuck up or get a few of his buddies and go invade Idaho or some shit.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

While I share your sentiments, Michael, why take it out on the messenger? Doesn't the history support him?

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 11:42:41 AM   
tj444


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Status: offline 		War is paid for on the backs of taxpayers.. This article is wrong.. its not America that needs war, its the 1%ers that own war profitier corps and profit from war that need it..

Is Forbes & company upset that the US has changed its war tactics?.. instead of actually starting wars they are getting permission from various countries for drone attacks.. its a cheaper & less controversial to the American public, etc.. There are also ways to pressure other countries.. as the US has recently done to Iran, those sanctions have had quite an impact..

"For its part the Obama administration has defended the legality of its drone activities and said strikes are conducted only with consent from the states involved."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/12/musharraf-admits-permitting-drone-strikes

"As a result of actions taken since the beginning of this year, Iran’s crude exports have plummeted to approximately one million barrels per day, a dramatic 55 percent decrease.
As we explained in these conversations, CISADA offered foreign banks a choice: they could do business with banks in the U.S., or they could do business with designated Iranian banks. But they could not do both.
The impact was dramatic. Nearly everyone we spoke with readily recognized that there really was only one choice – to terminate relationships with designated Iranian banks. And those that did not appear to recognize this – like Kunlun Bank in China and Elaf Islamic Bank in Iraq, both of which have now been cut off from the United States banking system – have learned that we are quite serious about the choice to be made under CISADA."
http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/tg1706.aspx

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 12:10:20 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I'd be interested to see any evidence this fuckwit cited in the OP has that either of the current wars are stimulating the economy rather than wasting tax revenues, myself.

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 12:29:16 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

While I share your sentiments, Michael, why take it out on the messenger? Doesn't the history support him?



I must not have been clear. Yes, I agree that wars can stimulate economies. I also believe they almost invariably cause deficit spending. I didn't mean to take it out on the author; just that it's easy "recommend" (which was the sense of the message that I got) that a country go to war for the expressed purpose of jump-starting an economy has gotten to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Now, had he made a case for (example) "These dirtbag warlords in _______ are killing the citizenry and raping women and ... and we need to go over there and stop them because it's the humane thing to do ... and wars have been regularly known to boost economies, too so we'd even be helping ourselves out"

That's not the sense I got. The sense I got was: "We're in deep shit. Let's blow some shit up". That's just assinine.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 12:31:15 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
That's not the sense I got. The sense I got was: "We're in deep shit. Let's blow some shit up". That's just assinine.

That isn't how you spell "republican".

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 12:42:45 PM   
DomKen


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Hell no.

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 12:52:28 PM   
FelineRanger


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Status: offline 		There's another problem with the theory that war stimulates the economy: the aftermath. When thousands of injured soldiers start coming back for treatment of physical injuries, PTSD, or any of the other ailments caused by combat, that becomes a huge drain on budgetary resources as the VA and civilian medical facilities require more money to treat these vets. Further, I agree with tj444 that the "War on Terror" was paid for on the backs of taxpayers and has only benefited the 1%. It has not been the kind of economic boom that WWII was.

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 12:57:20 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Isn't that why both parties have been trying to kill off the VA with the death of a thousand budget cuts for the last thirty odd years?

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 1:28:04 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
War is paid for on the backs of taxpayers.. This article is wrong.. its not America that needs war, its the 1%ers that own war profitier corps and profit from war that need it..

As a first level analysis, correct. There is, however, this question of a "war of acquisition" to fill the empty pockets of Uncle Sam thereby bolstering our whole economy. And, of course, if we have a good old' fashioned war perhaps people will forget that the bankers are STILL stealing money from us left and right and STILL being given free passes by the administration and STILL not being prosecuted. So there may be some political expediency to going out and slaughtering another few hundred thousand people.

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 1:38:16 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
War is paid for on the backs of taxpayers.. This article is wrong.. its not America that needs war, its the 1%ers that own war profitier corps and profit from war that need it..

As a first level analysis, correct. There is, however, this question of a "war of acquisition" to fill the empty pockets of Uncle Sam thereby bolstering our whole economy. And, of course, if we have a good old' fashioned war perhaps people will forget that the bankers are STILL stealing money from us left and right and STILL being given free passes by the administration and STILL not being prosecuted. So there may be some political expediency to going out and slaughtering another few hundred thousand people.

I think there are other ways of bolstering the economy rather than invading countries and killing people.. better ways.. such as having forgiveable student loans for those Americans with the brains to go to school for STEM jobs.. and second, to realize that the immigrant entrepreurs have a great impact on jobs.. and encourage them (instead of discourage them) to set up in the US..

"Immigrants founded or cofounded almost half of 50 top venture-backed companies in the United States"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/20/us-venture-immigration-idUSTRE7BJ1WK20111220

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-10-02/why-immigrant-entrepreneurship-is-stalling

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 1:52:38 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

While I share your sentiments, Michael, why take it out on the messenger? Doesn't the history support him?



I must not have been clear. Yes, I agree that wars can stimulate economies. I also believe they almost invariably cause deficit spending. I didn't mean to take it out on the author; just that it's easy "recommend" (which was the sense of the message that I got) that a country go to war for the expressed purpose of jump-starting an economy has gotten to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Now, had he made a case for (example) "These dirtbag warlords in _______ are killing the citizenry and raping women and ... and we need to go over there and stop them because it's the humane thing to do ... and wars have been regularly known to boost economies, too so we'd even be helping ourselves out"

That's not the sense I got. The sense I got was: "We're in deep shit. Let's blow some shit up". That's just assinine.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

I think he was being a bit sardonic toward the military/industrial complex but then went on to list ten possible fuses that are burning. So, it seems a mixed message: Against war but wary that we will easily be nudged into one by the m/i complex and the neocons . . as we were in Iraq.

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 1:58:59 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
I think there are other ways of bolstering the economy rather than invading countries and killing people..

Me too. And even if I didn't think that the idea of slaughtering a few hundred thousand people for money is repulsive to me. I'd rather be poor. Sadly, I'm not the president nor am I a congressman.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 2:04:31 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

There's another problem with the theory that war stimulates the economy: the aftermath. When thousands of injured soldiers start coming back for treatment of physical injuries, PTSD, or any of the other ailments caused by combat, that becomes a huge drain on budgetary resources as the VA and civilian medical facilities require more money to treat these vets. Further, I agree with tj444 that the "War on Terror" was paid for on the backs of taxpayers and has only benefited the 1%. It has not been the kind of economic boom that WWII was.

The author, Paul Farrell, makes this very point in the article.

As for the number of troops coming back with serious injuries . . . that is a new phenomenon attributed to the ability to speed evacuation to hospitals in Mannheim, Germany (I think) It was not a factor in previous major wars.

Regarding a "huge drain on the Fed budget" . . .well of course. That's the source of the stimulus coins.

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 2:06:27 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
I think there are other ways of bolstering the economy rather than invading countries and killing people..

Me too. And even if I didn't think that the idea of slaughtering a few hundred thousand people for money is repulsive to me. I'd rather be poor. Sadly, I'm not the president nor am I a congressman.

I don't think Frank Roosevelt set out to cure the Great Depression by leading us into WW2 but that was the effect.

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 2:09:22 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I'd be interested to see any evidence this fuckwit cited in the OP has that either of the current wars are stimulating the economy rather than wasting tax revenues, myself.

Read the article that I linked. He says it is the wind down of the current wars that are contributing to slow growth.

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 2:11:55 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Is Forbes & company upset that the US has changed its war tactics?.. instead of actually starting wars they are getting permission from various countries for drone attacks.. its a cheaper & less controversial to the American public, etc.. There are also ways to pressure other countries.. as the US has recently done to Iran, those sanctions have had quite an impact..

Drones are a whole new industry. They will be an important stimulus as local communities get DHS permission to fly their own.

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 2:14:12 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		http://articles.businessinsider.com/2010-07-27/wall_street/30041674_1_wall-street-becker-capitalism

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 2:16:36 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Is Forbes & company upset that the US has changed its war tactics?.. instead of actually starting wars they are getting permission from various countries for drone attacks.. its a cheaper & less controversial to the American public, etc.. There are also ways to pressure other countries.. as the US has recently done to Iran, those sanctions have had quite an impact..

Drones are a whole new industry. They will be an important stimulus as local communities get DHS permission to fly their own.

yea, i know they will be increasingly used in the US (for better or worse.. ) but thats not exactly for war, is it?

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